Property Market 2018

Villa05

Fol20 wrote:

Do you think ll fair much better politically. All of the recent legislation has been pro tenant

Legislation has been largely ineffective, counter productive. Tennants are being financially hammered.

Imagine if we all had to rent and it being the largest financial outgoing was rising in cost at inflation rates of 10 to 20 percent.

There would be anarchy on the streets

As it is our sons and daughters that suffer from this, I find it shameful and disgusting that nothing is being done about it

All other life forms on the planet do their utmost to ensure their offspring have the best possible start in life. We seem content to go along with a system that does the opposite for our children

Bluefoam

Villa05 wrote: »

Fol20 wrote:

Do you think ll fair much better politically. All of the recent legislation has been pro tenant

Legislation has been largely ineffective, counter productive. Tennants are being financially hammered.

Imagine if we all had to rent and it being the largest financial outgoing was rising in cost at inflation rates of 10 to 20 percent.

There would be anarchy on the streets

As it is our sons and daughters that suffer from this, I find it shameful and disgusting that nothing is being done about it

All other life forms on the planet do their utmost to ensure their offspring have the best possible start in life. We seem content to go along with a system that does the opposite for our children

We have a system where a large portion of people take and take and don't give back... Another who are expected to pay for the first group and a genuine needful group whos prospects are lessened by the thirsty attitude first group... I agree that we need a more even spread in society, one where everyone is enabled to contribute positively.

Villa05

Bluefoam wrote:

We have a system where a large portion of people take and take and don't give back... Another who are expected to pay for the first group and a genuine needful group whos prospects are lessened by the thirsty attitude first group... I agree that we need a more even spread in society, one where everyone is enabled to contribute positively.

Unemployment is down to less than 5% that's very close to full employment. The proportion of people taking without giving back is miniscule and exaggerated by the media.

Many of those people working may be better off on social welfare and are therefore contributing at cost to themselves and their families

engiweirdo

Villa05 wrote: »

Bluefoam wrote:

We have a system where a large portion of people take and take and don't give back... Another who are expected to pay for the first group and a genuine needful group whos prospects are lessened by the thirsty attitude first group... I agree that we need a more even spread in society, one where everyone is enabled to contribute positively.

Unemployment is down to less than 5% that's very close to full employment. The proportion of people taking without giving back is miniscule and exaggerated by the media.

Many of those people working may be better off on social welfare and are therefore contributing at cost to themselves and their families

Maybe they meant the ones at the top who take and take. Doubt it though somehow.

Bluefoam

There's plenty who are working, earning money, but still living in social housing, claiming medical cards etc. Those who know how to manage the system... It would be interesting to see the figures for social housing against earnings statistics for the state. The welfare state has to end. I know one family who were claiming a pension and a widows pension while still working. One of the daughters was earning over 70k and claiming a medical card... When the younger daughter lost her job as a well paid banker her sister arranged a CFO job for her in a state financed 'company'... This is not unusual & people like that are laughing all the way to the bank.

Arthur Daley

Villa05 wrote: »

Legislation has been largely ineffective, counter productive. Tennants are being financially hammered.

Imagine if we all had to rent and it being the largest financial outgoing was rising in cost at inflation rates of 10 to 20 percent.

There would be anarchy on the streets

As it is our sons and daughters that suffer from this, I find it shameful and disgusting that nothing is being done about it

All other life forms on the planet do their utmost to ensure their offspring have the best possible start in life. We seem content to go along with a system that does the opposite for our children

It was exactly the same during the 2000s. They called it the Celtic Tiger, and the 'good times', and the general population yearned for it's return like a lovelorn teenager.

Be careful what you wish for. Because FF/FG will deliver it quite easily. Rinse and repeat. Ireland's establishment is well versed in a deeply ingrained culture of the old Sow that eats it's farrow.

Villa05

Villa05 wrote: »

Unemployment is down to less than 5% that's very close to full employment. The proportion of people taking without giving back is miniscule and exaggerated by the media.

Many of those people working may be better off on social welfare and are therefore contributing at cost to themselves and their families

The media understate it actually as they are quite left
Have you not seen all the coverage about low unemployment figures being deceiving as there are zero hour contracts and shock horror, folk on contracts .... OMG

Bluefoam

Bluefoam wrote: »

...... I know one family who were claiming a pension and a widows pension while still working. ....

Working and claiming a widows pension is fine surely?

Mad_maxx

Villa05 wrote: »

Unemployment is down to less than 5% that's very close to full employment. The proportion of people taking without giving back is miniscule and exaggerated by the media.

Many of those people working may be better off on social welfare and are therefore contributing at cost to themselves and their families

The media are almost entirely left wing and play down the issue of welfare dependency or abuse, notice the media reaction when Leo spoke of wanting to " help those who rise early"

They roasted him

zl1whqvjs75cdy

I think at this stage Dublin is a lost cause. Too many multinationals coming in and too much vested interest in keeping prices high.

Bluefoam

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

I think at this stage Dublin is a lost cause. Too many multinationals coming in and too much vested interest in keeping prices high.

But the central banks policy is genuinely designed to keep prices down... There are plenty of people who can afford property, it all seems to be selling... In what way is Dublin a lost cause? Multinationals creating employment & people buying houses at prices they can afford...

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Bluefoam wrote: »

But the central banks policy is genuinely designed to keep prices down... There are plenty of people who can afford property, it all seems to be selling... In what way is Dublin a lost cause? Multinationals creating employment & people buying houses at prices they can afford...

Apologies should have been more clear. I think barring a major economic hit (and I don't mean a year or three of slow down) prices in Dublin will not decrease. They are propped up by the wages of multinational employees and other high earners. I think those waiting on the sidelines for a 30 or 40 % drop in prices similar to 07/08 will be left waiting an awfully long time

Geuze

Villa05 wrote: »

Unemployment is down to less than 5% that's very close to full employment. The proportion of people taking without giving back is miniscule and exaggerated by the media.

There are hundreds of thousands of inactive adults in Ireland, jobless, but not unemployed.



http://economic-incentives.blogspot.com/2018/02/very-low-work-intensity-by-tenure-status.html

Geuze

Villa05 wrote: »

Unemployment is down to less than 5% that's very close to full employment. The proportion of people taking without giving back is miniscule and exaggerated by the media.

Many of those people working may be better off on social welfare and are therefore contributing at cost to themselves and their families

Ireland has low unemployment, yes, but also low employment.

Inactivity is very high among adults.

Villa05

Bluefoam wrote:

There's plenty who are working, earning money, but still living in social housing, claiming medical cards etc. Those who know how to manage the system... It would be interesting to see the figures for social housing against earnings statistics for the state.

If house prices are only affordable to the those in the top 40% of income earners it therefore follows that many workers will be in subsidised accommodation if available

If your income is below average as it is for 60% + of workers and your paying extortionate rent, you most likely qualify for a medical or gp card. This is not scamming social welfare. It would be more accurate to say that property
/rent prices are scamming tennants and the social welfare system

Mad_maxx wrote:

The media are almost entirely left wing and play down the issue of welfare dependency or abuse, notice the media reaction when Leo spoke of wanting to " help those who rise early"

Leo is all sound bites. If he cared about the people who got up in the morning he would be sorting out the major waste and inefficiencies in the various government departments. Health, education, justice social welfare etc

You only have to look at his tax policies from his recent ard fheis. It only benefits those that are earning above 35k. The people earning below that get up earlier you know and most likely are trapped paying extortionate rent

Villa05

Villa05 wrote: »

....

You only have to look at his tax policies from his recent ard fheis. It only benefits those that are earning above 35k. The people earning below that get up earlier you know and most likely are trapped paying extortionate rent

What's this now?
Lower paid get up earlier then those on over 35k/annum?

Fol20

Villa05 wrote: »

Legislation has been largely ineffective, counter productive. Tennants are being financially hammered.

Imagine if we all had to rent and it being the largest financial outgoing was rising in cost at inflation rates of 10 to 20 percent.

There would be anarchy on the streets

As it is our sons and daughters that suffer from this, I find it shameful and disgusting that nothing is being done about it

All other life forms on the planet do their utmost to ensure their offspring have the best possible start in life. We seem content to go along with a system that does the opposite for our children

Not quite, yes some ll might break the rules but generally speaking. You now see a lot of rentals with odd numbers when letting so for example it might be 1568 instead of an even 1600 etc. likewise if there was any political will, the bad tenants can cause 20-30k worth of damage so they should be evicted promptly. Tenants might be financially hammers right now but this has been happening for how many years. Maybe 2 or 3? How many ll went bankrupt and lost everything they owned during the downturn. Some struggled for a decade and even now are being told they can’t finally get the money they could earn as its not socially acceptable. There was no one on the new protecting for the ll when they were going bankrupt. They were still protesting against us blaming us for the downturn. It’s always a loose loose for us

Interested Observer

Villa05 wrote: »

You only have to look at his tax policies from his recent ard fheis. It only benefits those that are earning above 35k. The people earning below that get up earlier you know and most likely are trapped paying extortionate rent

That's because if you earn less than 35k you pay **** all tax as it is.

The_Conductor

You really have to ask yourself- just who is benefiting from this era of 'full-employment'.
From listening to the stories here- it most certainly is neither tenants nor small scale landlords- both of whom are being crucified.
The multinational companies with their sweetheart corporation tax deal- and all the REITs and Vulture funds- who are simply sucking money out of the Irish economy- are the main beneificiaries- yet, the government is protecting them tooth and nail.

The rate of personal taxation in Ireland- is high- but it is a misnomer in its own right- as the chosen manner of mopping up taxes by the government- has been a roll-out of indirect taxes. So someone on 35k who may have a lower rate of direct taxation- actually pays a much higher proportion of their net income on goods and services- than does someone on a higher salary- despite the fact that the higher salaried person is on an eye watering personal taxation rate.

We have crucified the little people, to misquote Leona Helmsley- in order to gild the hallways of our multinationals and others.

The manner in which the government have set landlords and tenants against one another- is a classic divide and conquer strategy- yet it is so rarely mentioned. It suits to use the small scale landlords as whipping boys- despite the fact that someone with 2-3 properties could potentially be paying up to 54% of their rental income in tax- meanwhile- the REITs and others are structured in such a way that they pay, very often, no tax whatsoever (they buy developments with historic losses associated with them- which are treated as assets against which taxes can be offset- in addition many are structured in such a way to obsfusciate their ownership- so no tax becomes payable).

The little people are the ones being crucified- and in the ultimate twist- the government spin it so that the little people tear lumps out of each other- and leave those who are truly responsible to keep their heads down and manipulate the situation to their advantage.............

Fol20

Great post conductor.

The one point I would beg to differ on is the multinationals providing us thousands of jobs. It’s basically a game of cat and mouse where if they tax them too “high”, they will move to another country as were nothing special. At least when they move their investment here, it provides thousands of jobs, which generates a lot of supplementary jobs and boosts the local economy. The added benefit that it generates both direct and indirect taxes.

The_Conductor

The_Conductor wrote: »

You really have to ask yourself- just who is benefiting from this era of 'full-employment'.
From listening to the stories here- it most certainly is neither tenants nor small scale landlords- both of whom are being crucified.
The multinational companies with their sweetheart corporation tax deal- and all the REITs and Vulture funds- who are simply sucking money out of the Irish economy- are the main beneificiaries- yet, the government is protecting them tooth and nail.

.............

Whatever about REITs & vulture funds (a term that's quite moronic Imo but anyway) the multinationals are no doubt making a nice few quid from their activities here (name if the game really) the amount of money they inject into the economy is of serious importance to the country.

If they all left you'd get a cheap rental alright though, no doubt.

Generally folk asking who benefits are benefiting themselves BTW.

Villa05

Augeo wrote:

What's this now? Lower paid get up earlier then those on over 35k/annum?

They are making our breakfast rolls and coffee, working shifts, working in factories that start at 7am. I suspect they are up much earlier than others

Interested Observer wrote:

That's because if you earn less than 35k you pay **** all tax as it is.

Again another government soundbite that is not accurate. They will spend all their income so up to 23% is gone in vat

They are more likely to be renting so if rental income is taxed, who is actually paying the tax

They are much less likely to have a pension so are not benefiting the generous tax benefits that go along with pensions.

With accommodation costs so high, they are more likely to be living further away from their work place. This involves more motoring expenses which are heavily taxed and increasing.

The_Conductor wrote:

The little people are the ones being crucified- and in the ultimate twist- the government spin it so that the little people tear lumps out of each other- and leave those who are truly responsible to keep their heads down and manipulate the situation to their advantage.............

Thank you for putting my message in a more politically correct format

Excellent post

I've worked shifts.... started before 7am..... do I get a medal or is that only if you made the breakfast roles?

The up early was a Leo soundbite.....you seem to have latched in to it.

Villa05

Augeo wrote:

I've worked shifts.... started before 7am..... do I get a medal or is that only if you made the breakfast roles?

Augeo wrote:

The up early was a Leo soundbite.....you seem to have latched in to it.

My point is that those on under 35k work hard also. It is a misnomer to say they pay very little tax. They pay as much as if not more in some cases in proportion to their income.

Leo is a spoofer, if he was for the person who gets up early in the morning he would not divide them up and promise policies that benefit only the top 40% of people who get up early in the morning.
He is also the taoiseach of the country and as such the buck stops with him on the huge waste and inefficiencies in the public service. If he was for the person who gets up early in the morning he would ensure the money that is taken from them is spent wisely and efficiently. I have seen very little evidence of this

Housing could be a resource where the state could easily get involved in, provide affordable housing for everyone who requires it and it can be revenue positive for the state

Present policy ensures that housing is expensive, poor quality, damaging to the environment and economy and revenue negative to the state

Policies could be implemented that fix all of the above. That would be hugely beneficial to people who get up early in the morning

The amount at which they would pay the higher rate has increased.....proportionately that's of more benefit to someone lower paid so too the USC changes. Your points are contradictory or you have no clue about how taxation changes in the last few budgets effected take home wages and tax paid.. proportionately.
Seems as your point is based on proportions rather than numbers
Many low paid jobs are handy as fook too....handiest gigs I had were low paid..... wouldn't fancy it long-term of course but bed .... make....lie....etc etc

hmmm

The_Conductor wrote: »

You really have to ask yourself- just who is benefiting from this era of 'full-employment'.

The hundreds of thousands of Irish people in well paid employment are benefiting. This group also generates the taxes which are paying for the 2 million people who receive payments from the Irish state. I remember Ireland in the 80s when there was 20% unemployment and it was a miserable ****hole.

The rate of personal taxation in Ireland- is high- but it is a misnomer in its own right- as the chosen manner of mopping up taxes by the government- has been a roll-out of indirect taxes. So someone on 35k who may have a lower rate of direct taxation- actually pays a much higher proportion of their net income on goods and services- than does someone on a higher salary- despite the fact that the higher salaried person is on an eye watering personal taxation rate.

We have incredibly low rates of income tax for the lower paid, and crucifying rates of tax for people who are in what would be regarded as "good jobs". The idea that somehow the lower paid are shouldering the tax burden is ridiculous.

We have crucified the little people, to misquote Leona Helmsley- in order to gild the hallways of our multinationals and others.

Straight out of some PBP manual. If Irish people want to go back to living in tenements (but *cheap tenements*) while being unemployed, we can abandon our economy and go back to digging up spuds for a living.

This housing thing is a temporary problem caused by poor political choices. Instead of the short-termism, and stupid populist solutions peddled by chancers (see the SF proposal for 25% social housing), we need proper long term planning and to stop ****ing around with the rules every year.

engiweirdo

hmmm wrote: »

The hundreds of thousands of Irish people in well paid employment are benefiting. This group also generates the taxes which are paying for the 2 million people who receive payments from the Irish state. I remember Ireland in the 80s when there was 20% unemployment and it was a miserable ****hole.


We have incredibly low rates of income tax for the lower paid, and crucifying rates of tax for people who are in what would be regarded as "good jobs". The idea that somehow the lower paid are shouldering the tax burden is ridiculous.


Straight out of some PBP manual. If Irish people want to go back to living in tenements (but *cheap tenements*) while being unemployed, we can abandon our economy and go back to digging up spuds for a living.

This housing thing is a temporary problem caused by poor political choices. Instead of the short-termism, and stupid populist solutions peddled by chancers (see the SF proposal for 25% social housing), we need proper long term planning and to stop ****ing around with the rules every year.

The reality for a lot of people now, even well qualified young professionals is tenements or at least the modern equivalent are back with a bang. Bloody room sharing in tiny apartments is a thing now. In 2018, almost 100 years post "independence" we have created housing situations akin to those prevalent in Dublin during the Lockout, Rising, War of Independence era. Progress eh?

The_Conductor

hmmm wrote: »

The hundreds of thousands of Irish people in well paid employment are benefiting. This group also generates the taxes which are paying for the 2 million people who receive payments from the Irish state. I remember Ireland in the 80s when there was 20% unemployment and it was a miserable ****hole.

The hundreds of thousands of Irish people in well paid jobs- are not benefiting. They are getting slaughtered with taxes- and for those who are doing pretty ok, but not spectacularly- very often they'd actually be better off on social welfare.

We have created an unsustainable social welfare state- where someone has to pay for the largess we dollop out to those who qualify- to prevent them being 'left behind'.

Quite simply its unaffordable.

Re: growing up in Ireland in the 1980s- I grew up here to and remember how the country was. I don't have rose tinted glasses by any means- I'm actually a realist.

hmmm wrote: »

We have incredibly low rates of income tax for the lower paid, and crucifying rates of tax for people who are in what would be regarded as "good jobs". The idea that somehow the lower paid are shouldering the tax burden is ridiculous.

The issue with our taxation system is the artificially low level at which our higher rate of tax kicks in. The best and most progressive tax we have- USC- is politically toxic- and the government have committed to a policy of gradually reducing it- which in my opinion is a massive mistake. Everyone- absolutely everyone- should pay some tax- and have a stake in the country. However, it should also pay to work. There are a lot of people out there earning money in the early 30k region- who just couldn't be arsed working overtime or taking on extra work- sure why would they- when they'd loose half of it to the taxman? There is a perverse disincentive to becoming more productive. Simultaneously- our social welfare system is such that working at all simply doesn't pay for a non inconsiderable cohort of people. Its a travesty.

hmmm wrote: »

Straight out of some PBP manual. If Irish people want to go back to living in tenements (but *cheap tenements*) while being unemployed, we can abandon our economy and go back to digging up spuds for a living.

The Irish people are living in modern day tenements- its hard to describe a 350 square foot unit that a family is expected to live in- and perhaps let out a bedroom to get the rent-a-room tax relief- as anything other than tenement living. The answer the government came up with to deal with property prices- was to relax building requirements and apartment size requirements- so ye shoebox of yore- is now ye half a shoebox of today.........

hmmm wrote: »

This housing thing is a temporary problem caused by poor political choices. Instead of the short-termism, and stupid populist solutions peddled by chancers (see the SF proposal for 25% social housing), we need proper long term planning and to stop ****ing around with the rules every year.

Temporary is a subjective term. Its been ongoing for most of the last decade- and is worsening not getting better............ Stupid populist solutions- don't work- however, there is a presumption that our elected officials will make the hard decisions that this country needs- when the truth of the fact is their competence is best at spinning facts and setting their various constituencies against one another- rather than grasping the task by the mettle and making hard choices and implementing them. I don't know what we did to consistently deserve the gutless and spineless decision makers that have- they take cudos for anything that goes right (despite their inaction)- while casting blame elsewhere- whenever anything goes wrong (regardless of whether its underlying cause is government action or inaction.

Populist policies- do not work- period. However, when the ability to spin seems to be the most desired trait in politicians- we end up with a right shower......... Sadly- people never learn- and will vote the same sods back in again, and again, and again............

Carlos Orange

Villa05 wrote: »

Again another government soundbite that is not accurate. They will spend all their income so up to 23% is gone in vat

They are more likely to be renting so if rental income is taxed, who is actually paying the tax

They are much less likely to have a pension so are not benefiting the generous tax benefits that go along with pensions.

They don't spend all their income on things with VAT at 23%. The portion they do they pay 18% not 23% because of how VAT works.

They might pay rent but it is probably subsidised by the tax payer. They don't pay tax because it isn't their income.

They are eligible for a pension. If they have worked they get one just as good as mine despite me paying multiple times as much into the system.

dor843088

We don't have a housing crisis in Ireland. We have a major city affordability "crisis" . You can buy very reasonably prices homes much less than an hour outside Dublin with a mortgage of around 500 to 600 quid a month. I live in such an area and commute to Dublin. Maybe I should have declared myself homeless and went around whinging about the "crisis" we are in rather than getting on with it and buying a house I could afford in a location I could afford.