The slow death of forums *see OP for Admin warning and update 28/02/18*

Discodog

looksee wrote: »

It just occurs to me (possibly incorrectly) that if conversations were taken to an appropriate feed back forum - most of this to AH, some to PC etc, it might give less of an impression that the whole of Boards has stuff that needs to be sorted, and focus on areas where there are perceived issues.

What we have is the 'United States of Boards' - Washington should be dealing with technical and legal stuff, the overall basic requirements of civilised existence. The individual states have to a large extent their own rules and ethos, and this should be regarded as a Good Thing, creating variety and vibrancy. And if the rules in one are a bit different to the rules in another, its up to the residents and visitors to figure that out, with a bit of guidance from the state police mods.

It should be possible to recognise the difference between 'back seat modding' and creating a social environment by people being able occasionally to say (politely) 'you'll find that doing x in here is a bit frowned on'. Yes some people will abuse this by creating their own rule book and carping, the mods can deal with them. And its the mods' decision where that line is.

As it is the mods seem be be losing confidence in what and how they can mod, the low grade carping rabble are getting too much attention, and the fact that the average user is in fact mostly getting on with the chat that the site was intended for is ignored.

There is plenty of room for keeping an eye on/ encouraging mods too, those who are never on the forums they mod should be nudged elsewhere, those who are abrasive or aggressive or missing the point should be given a bit of help. And there should be a clearly defined facility for both mods and users to be able to privately say 'this mod is creating problems / doing a great job / whatever'. The admins have enough cop-on to sift the serious comments from the personal gripes and stirrers, and it might focus issues a bit rather than take swipes at the entire mod team.

Wow. Have a look through the pages & pages of comments posted over the last three months - that's a lot of rabble.

When people do comment & get treated like this, is it any wonder that others don't bother.

Are the rabble posting to cause trouble ? I have made a number of useful positive suggestions & some have been acknowledged. I have seen pages of useful, positive posts & there is a good reason why.

Some of us actually care about this site. We can see where it can be improved but we also see a stalwart of Mods/Admins who want to run the place as they see fit. That is Board's choice. The facts are that the numbers are dropping.

Asking for feedback & then just dismissing it & insulting the poster isn't going to bring in more customers - unless Boards wants to take over from Ryanair.

looksee

Where have I said that all the posts here are by rabble? I haven't.

KyussB

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

Problem with After Hours is that it's supposed to be social and fun but hasn't been for the past few years. It's depressing more than anything else seeing yet another thread about rape created. I like a lot of the other forums, they do the job they are supposed to do. After Hours is unrecognisable from what it was a few years ago.

That happened because of the purge of users from over-moderation. The best posters were often the ones with borderline offensive views or prone to comments risque enough to fall foul of mods, if the humour was off the mark or misinterpreted - as happened a lot - and once you start hassling these users, they are gone and won't come back (especially if permanent bans are a thing).

As much as I abhor some peoples offensive views, or borderline sexism in many cases (still not an uncommon thing in society...), I prefer for the forum to self-regulate by other posters calling bullshit on this type of stuff, instead of having the mods come in and ban people who - despite their faults - have redeeming character traits and used to add a shitload of humour to the forum - with it feeling rather dead now compared to what it used to be.

After Hours has always had extremely politically divisive threads, until recent years - Israel vs Palestine threads, and the shills and those who regularly called bullshít on them in such threads, were more present in AH than in Politics forums, if I recall correctly - and that stuff added to the community, as people more inclined to that type of thread, would get to know other posters of similar views in threads like that - and even learn a lot in the process, about the history there.

Some people will always complain about politics being discussed - it's like this everywhere and in everyday life - here they can just not open the thread, or the site can give people the ability to filter such threads out, like should have been done years ago - the site shouldn't give in to such posters and kill discussion due to that - nor misattribute overmoderation killing a forum, with political discussion killing a forum.

Conflicted discussion doesn't kill the fun of a forum - it adds to it, when the forum is run right - overmoderation definitely does kill forums.

Snake Plisken

So the Tommy Robinson thread was moved to the cafe, the chap isn’t part of any political party yet the thread was moved there. So after the previous Mod debacle last year I applied and was granted access to post there when I went to post there yesterday looks like my access was revoked.
My perception is that the AH mods don’t want the hassle of modding devisive topics like above and sent it there as someone mentioned above maybe there should be a sub forum to discuss current events and topics in the news.
Also cafe restrictions need to be removed otherwise it will be easy for mods just to send threads there to die!

Discodog

looksee wrote: »

Where have I said that all the posts here are by rabble? I haven't.

I accept that you haven't but there are clearly those that do. I actually agree with some of your post but disagree with the commenting privately part.

I remember one Mod team that instantly grabbed my respect by opening an on forum feedback thread asking how they were doing. To me every Mod team should have the confidence to do this. But then as the constructive comments came in the whole tone changed. Everything was seen as a criticism & the thread was closed.

There has to be a way that any poster can voice a concern or suggestion without having to stick their head above the parapet. All the time we are told to PM the Mod - in other words keep it private & don't solicit opinions from others. This means that you have act alone & risk going into the troublemaker book.

At the beginning of this process I said that every forum should have an ongoing feedback sticky. I still believe that this would be so much easier for the Mods & everything would be open. If someone criticises unfairly then others would post in support of the Mods. But it has to be on every forum. There should be no opt outs.

By the way the modding in the Manchester United forum is excellent - so even soccer can be modded well.

Discodog

Snake Plisken wrote: »

So the Tommy Robinson thread was moved to the cafe, the chap isn’t part of any political party yet the thread was moved there. So after the previous Mod debacle last year I applied and was granted access to post there when I went to post there yesterday looks like my access was revoked.
My perception is that the AH mods don’t want the hassle of modding devisive topics like above and sent it there as someone mentioned above maybe there should be a sub forum to discuss current events and topics in the news.
Also cafe restrictions need to be removed otherwise it will be easy for mods just to send threads there to die!

I have asked for one here. Your support would be welcome
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057860148

KyussB

Discodog wrote: »

I fear that any of us, who care enough to want things to be better, will be labelled as trouble makers.

Ya that's something that happens a fair bit - there may be some posters who are, but even if you give quite detailed thought-out suggestions on how to improve the site, mods/admins still give vague comments about people with 'an axe to grind' - except they aren't singling out any specific people, aren't naming names - so it just sounds like they are attributing this generally to people who are complaining, even if complaints are legitimate.

If mods/admins make ambiguous statements like that, how is any individual poster supposed to know whether that applies to them or not - it's not a smart thing to say, it makes posters providing even genuine suggestions for improvement, think they're dismissed as troublemakers, due to the ambiguity.

Skylinehead

Discodog wrote: »

I have asked for one here. Your support would be welcome
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057860148

See, I don't really disagree with the idea. That, or fix the Cafe (remove that stupid access system that nobody wanted) and use it for that.

Snake Plisken

Skylinehead wrote: »

See, I don't really disagree with the idea. That, or fix the Cafe (remove that stupid access system that nobody wanted) and use it for that.

Agree but also rename it to allow discussion to flow on non politics related news stories. Like I don’t envy modding a sub forum that would have a lot of topical controversial threads but it’s either that or go with the free for all after hours that we have now.

Discodog

Skylinehead wrote: »

See, I don't really disagree with the idea. That, or fix the Cafe (remove that stupid access system that nobody wanted) and use it for that.

People avoid Politics like the plague. Current Affairs embraces so much more.

AH is the news feed for Boards. Anything happens in the World & it appears on AH.

Beasty

The Café is on the list of issues to follow-up. What the conclusions will be I have no idea.

I understand it certainly started out in the form being requested here. The problem (and this was all before my time as an Admins, and I was simply looking from afar), was it became something that was considered inappropriate for AH (or as a sub-forum of AH as it had been). It seems to me to be a complete PITA to moderate, and the knock on is that the rules were tightened up in a way that actually made moderation and the borders between what was acceptable and what was not much better defined.

If you go back to the "old way" I would seriously question whether we could find anyone appropriate prepared to moderate it, as it seems to be far more bother than it's worth.

Skylinehead

Discodog wrote: »

People avoid Politics like the plague. Current Affairs embraces so much more.

AH is the news feed for Boards. Anything happens in the World & it appears on AH.

It's more supposed to be the pub of boards. Specifically, light-hearted. It's anything but right now unfortunately.

KyussB

In the pub you can make borderline offensive jokes with your mates, that another friend wouldn't get and would be offended by, if they weren't off to get a drink - and people discuss political and more serious stuff all the time, if the group of people present are into it - some people even be dicks to each other and try to troll one another, maybe as part of some stupid jokey rivalry from work, that others wouldn't know to not take serious etc. etc..

Really, the stuff that gets moderated away from here IS all pub talk - if someone tried to warn you not to talk about such and such in a pub, or told to discuss it in a different room, they'd be told to fuck off - if someone was easily offended and never wanted to talk about anything but lighthearted stuff, a lot of people wouldn't like to hang around with them (yet would probably respect that that's how they are, socially - which is fine, just not if trying to dictate how others spend their time).

So yea AH is definitely not the pub of Boards - and the way you want it to shift, is definitely AWAY from being the pub of Boards - and more like a corporate office party or such.

super_furry

thegreatgonzo wrote: »

Problem with After Hours is that it's supposed to be social and fun but hasn't been for the past few years. It's depressing more than anything else seeing yet another thread about rape created. I like a lot of the other forums, they do the job they are supposed to do. After Hours is unrecognisable from what it was a few years ago.

Couldn't agree more. After Hours today is mostly being driven by a certain group or groups of people pushing a very select agenda. It's anti-feminist, anti-immigrant and anti-muslim in tone and it seems to me to be a concerted effort by a lot of people with new accounts who attempt to use these, often throw-away accounts, to try and steer discussion in a certain direction.

The top five threads here currently are "Car hit crowd in Germany", "Irish woman gang raped by 6 men in Czech hotel," "Belfast rape trial", "Very good mother", avoids jail", " The 8th Amendment" and the same far-right voices are steering the conversations in most of them.

I find myself spending a lot more time on reddit/r/ireland, which is much close to what After Hours was a couple of years ago and where the agenda-pushing cranks get down-voted.

Most of the craic has gone from here and continues to be drained.

sdanseo

Skylinehead wrote: »

It's more supposed to be the pub of boards. Specifically, light-hearted. It's anything but right now unfortunately.

KyussB wrote: »

In the pub you can make borderline offensive comments with your mates, that another friend wouldn't get and would be offended by, if they weren't off to get a drink - and people discuss political and more serious stuff all the time, if the group of people present are into it - some people even be dicks to each other and try to troll one another, maybe as part of some stupid jokey rivalry from work, that others wouldn't know to not take serious etc. etc..

Really, the stuff that gets moderated away from here IS all pub talk - if someone tried to warn you not to talk about such and such in a pub, they'd be told to fuck off - if someone was easily offended and never wanted to talk about anything but lighthearted stuff, a lot of people wouldn't like to hang around with them (yet would probably respect that that's how they are, socially - which is fine, just not if trying to dictate how others spend their time).

So yea AH is definitely not the pub of Boards - and the way you want it to move there, is definitely AWAY from being the pub of Boards - and more like the a corporate office party or such.

These comments summarise things exactly. AH is in the "social & fun" section for a reason. Moderation should be significantly less strict than in other areas and posters need to realise that a serious discussion should be had elsehwere. The idea was always that light hearted discussion be permitted in AH on just about any topic, and that the more serious or in depth discussions be started (or later moved) into the more dedicated fora.

In other words, conversations along the lines of "ah we could solve the world's problems around the kitchen table" should be had in AH.

Conversations seeking to thoroughly debate things should be had in the dedicated fora.

There is no reason why both threads cannot exist simultaneously. This happens very often with the weather. There will be an "ah jaysus" thread about snow in AH, then several more technical threads in the Weather forum.

In the event that a discussion in AH becomes more technical, it should be moved or merged but never closed. Most people have no issue with this. What causes a problem is threads being closed after a significant time has elapsed and number of pages accumulated, rather than being moved or merged, even if this is done later the damage has already occured and what in most cases was a perfectly reasonable discussion has been stifled.

Technical note: Moving would be the preferred option. When you move a thread, vba allows you to leave a redirect in the forum of origin. It would allow those who had subscribed to the thread see no change at all, and those who try to find it via the main AH forum page would see it as "Moved: Thread ABC123". A quick mod note is all that would be needed to show that the charter of the new forum applies.

Discodog wrote: »

I have to agree with this & I raised it in the Helpdesk. One significant & very popular thread was closed & then moved to PC 2. This has killed the thread as people have to ask for pre clearance.

What is pre-clearance in the politics forum, and why does it exist?

super_furry

I wonder if an off-spin 'News and Current Affairs' sub-section would improve things or if everyone would just migrate to there and leave After Hours to die.

Edit - Looks like it's already been suggested

Discodog

super_furry wrote: »

I wonder if an off-spin 'News and Current Affairs' sub-section would improve things or if everyone would just migrate to there and leave After Hours to die.

Edit - Looks like it's already been suggested

One way to find out It's well worth a try & should be no different to Mod than if the thread was in AH.

Can I add you to the list ...........:D ?

Discodog

sdanseo wrote: »

These comments summarise things exactly. AH is in the "social & fun" section for a reason. Moderation should be significantly less strict than in other areas and posters need to realise that a serious discussion should be had elsehwere. The idea was always that light hearted discussion be permitted in AH on just about any topic, and that the more serious or in depth discussions be started (or later moved) into the more dedicated fora.

In other words, conversations along the lines of "ah we could solve the world's problems around the kitchen table" should be had in AH.

Conversations seeking to thoroughly debate things should be had in the dedicated fora.

There is no reason why both threads cannot exist simultaneously. This happens very often with the weather. There will be an "ah jaysus" thread about snow in AH, then several more technical threads in the Weather forum.

In the event that a discussion in AH becomes more technical, it should be moved or merged but never closed. Most people have no issue with this. What causes a problem is threads being closed after a significant time has elapsed and number of pages accumulated, rather than being moved or merged, even if this is done later the damage has already occured and what in most cases was a perfectly reasonable discussion has been stifled.

Technical note: Moving would be the preferred option. When you move a thread, vba allows you to leave a redirect in the forum of origin. It would allow those who had subscribed to the thread see no change at all, and those who try to find it via the main AH forum page would see it as "Moved: Thread ABC123". A quick mod note is all that would be needed to show that the charter of the new forum applies.



What is pre-clearance in the politics forum, and why does it exist?

In the politics Cafe 2 you have to ask for permission to join the forum. But you can post freely in the main Politics forum. Confused ? - join the rest of us

Odhinn

If those threads were to be moved, it would have better been done with their removal to the actual politics forum.

KERSPLAT!

I thought the issue with political threads was the inability or lack of desire for AH mods to mod it, Nick posted previously on it. If that is the case then you would need new mods, I assume, for the sub forum. What would be the difference between the old PC forum and a new current affairs sub forum? Very little it would seem, and we all saw what became of that.

I can understand the frustration on both sides here, mod and posters. Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions.

Dyr

super_furry wrote: »

and the same far-right voices are steering the conversations in most of them.

I remember a time when far-right actually meant far-right.. as in nazis. Now apparently it's anyone who doesn't think Ivana Bacik is spot on.

Discodog

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

I thought the issue with political threads was the inability or lack of desire for AH mods to mod it, Nick posted previously on it. If that is the case then you would need new mods, I assume, for the sub forum. What would be the difference between the old PC forum and a new current affairs sub forum? Very little it would seem, and we all saw what became of that.

I can understand the frustration on both sides here, mod and posters. Unfortunately I don't have any suggestions.

If the same threads that are currently on AH were moved to Current Affairs how or why would the moderation need to change ?

The danger word seems to be Politics - oh & religion

Stheno

Discodog wrote: »

If the same threads that are currently on AH were moved to Current Affairs how or why would the moderation need to change ?

The AH mods dont want to mod political threads? So you'd need new mods

Discodog

Stheno wrote: »

The AH mods dont want to mod political threads? So you'd need new mods

So it's the Moderators that decide what is posted on Boards ? Maybe a few of the old guard would step in & moderate Current Affairs - not Politics. Leave Politics where it is. Because of the closure some posters have continued the Salisbury discussion on the actual Politics forum - everything seems fine there.

I would of thought that an AH Mod would be the best of the best & more than capable of sensibly moderating the forum. Politics will seep into any subject in Ireland it's unavoidable.

My idea is just a response to not wanting current affairs in AH. Either you find somewhere for people to post or lose a lot of posters. People will always want to discuss what's in the news. After Hours is the first place everyone looks when something happens - you will really struggle to change that.

KERSPLAT!

Is current affairs the issue? If the new forum doesn't include political threads then in what way would it be different to the current AH.

Stheno

Discodog wrote: »

So it's the Moderators that decide what is posted on Boards ? Maybe a few of the old guard would step in & moderate Current Affairs - not Politics. Leave Politics where it is. Because of the closure some posters have continued the Salisbury discussion on the actual Politics forum - everything seems fine .

It was decided before i was a mod that politics would be moved from AH to the cafe, so its not surprising if mods who agree to mod ah without politics then dont want to mod political threads surely?

Discodog

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

Is current affairs the issue? If the new forum doesn't include political threads then in what way would it be different to the current AH.

Firstly I think that currently there is a problem with defining Politics. Salisbury isn't about politics, yes they get involved but not in the same way as in a subject like the 8th. Berlin is about an incident. Yes some will pile in & blame Merkel or someone else but it's not Politics.

Imagine Sky News or RTE covering these items. Would they mainly feature their Political correspondents ?

Discodog

Stheno wrote: »

It was decided before i was a mod that politics would be moved from AH to the cafe, so its not surprising if mods who agree to mod ah without politics then dont want to mod political threads surely?

Yes but that failed. So there needs to be a better solution. If people feel that you can't discuss certain topics on Boards they will simply go elsewhere. But where was the politics in the Salisbury thread ?

Most AH users want to talk about what's happening out there. It's why the forum is so fast moving. Many don't like this & want it to go back to being very light hearted. So either you need a new AH Fun only forum or somewhere else that isn't Politics

I applied to join the Cafe - no chance now :pac: So I might as well admit that I have very little interest in Politics - I wanted to continue the Salisbury discussion as have a few others that applied - shhhhh

Let say we put the fun posts in one forum, the boring politics in another & then have a vibrant popular place where people can discuss the news ?

Stheno

Discodog wrote: »

Yes but that failed. So there needs to be a better solution. If people feel that you can't discuss certain topics on Boards they will simply go elsewhere. But where was the politics in the Salisbury thread ?

Most AH users want to talk about what's happening out there. It's why the forum is so fast moving. Many don't like this & want it to go back to being very light hearted. So either you need a new AH Fun only forum or somewhere else that isn't Politics

I applied to join the Cafe - no chance now :pac: So I might as well admit that I have very little interest in Politics - I wanted to continue the Salisbury discussion as have a few others that applied - shhhhh

Let say we put the fun posts in one forum, the boring politics in another & then have a vibrant popular place where people can discuss the news ?

A new solution is needed but i dont know what that is tbh.

tigerboon

Stheno wrote: »

It was decided before i was a mod that politics would be moved from AH to the cafe, so its not surprising if mods who agree to mod ah without politics then dont want to mod political threads surely?

That's all ok but when it's moved there's a requirement for minimum post count, membership length and good behaviour. When all these are met you then are at the mercy of the mods and if they give you permission.
Why should any of this matter if there's a valid point being made and that point is legally sound and complies with the forum rules.