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brt for dublin?

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  • tom1ie wrote: »
    Do we know what the 16 radial routes are going to be that are proposed for bus connects yet?
    Indeed same question for the orbital routes. Or is this info not out until July?

    Infrastructure plans now due to be announced in June.
    Revised network due to be announced in July.




  • tom1ie wrote: »
    Do we know what the 16 radial routes are going to be that are proposed for bus connects yet?
    Indeed same question for the orbital routes. Or is this info not out until July?

    Routes is probably not the best way to think about this, more like corridors. Think the major, wider roads coming into the city (e.g. Swords Road, Stillorgan Road, etc.).

    You will actually end up with multiple routes operating along these corridors, much as they do today, but with better infrastructure along the corridors.




  • bk wrote: »
    Routes is probably not the best way to think about this, more like corridors. Think the major, wider roads coming into the city (e.g. Swords Road, Stillorgan Road, etc.).

    You will actually end up with multiple routes operating along these corridors, much as they do today, but with better infrastructure along the corridors.

    Yeah that's what I'm thinking bet has to be, however in the sw area of the city I just don't see the space for it.




  • bk wrote: »
    Routes is probably not the best way to think about this, more like corridors. Think the major, wider roads coming into the city (e.g. Swords Road, Stillorgan Road, etc.).

    You will actually end up with multiple routes operating along these corridors, much as they do today, but with better infrastructure along the corridors.

    Yeah that's what I'm thinking brt has to be, however in the sw area of the city I just don't see the space for it.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    Infrastructure plans now due to be announced in June.
    Revised network due to be announced in July.
    That's great. There definitely needs to be a public plan in place when the college green gate debacle is decided on.


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  • tom1ie wrote: »
    Yeah that's what I'm thinking brt has to be, however in the sw area of the city I just don't see the space for it.
    That's the case on a significant amount of the mooted routes, not just those in the SW IMO.




  • That's the case on a significant amount of the mooted routes, not just those in the SW IMO.

    A lot of money is going to be spent on this. That means a lot of CPOing to buy up front gardens and build bus lanes through them, along with bridge widenings, etc.

    This isn't just going to be your usual slap a bit of paint on the road.

    Take a look at the recent road widening at the cat&cage pub in Drumcondra.

    They spent €3.5 million widening this short stretch of road so it could be four lanes, but it has been a terrific success, IME making a journey that use to take me on average 40 minutes, just 20 minutes!! And that is without any other changes (like faster ticketing, multi-door operation).

    Now I haven't looked at the SW corridor in detail to see if the same is possible there at the pinch points, but the above should be an example of what BusConnect will be doing through out the city.




  • bk wrote: »
    A lot of money is going to be spent on this. That means a lot of CPOing to buy up front gardens and build bus lanes through them, along with bridge widenings, etc.

    This isn't just going to be your usual slap a bit of paint on the road.

    Take a look at the recent road widening at the cat&cage pub in Drumcondra.

    They spent €3.5 million widening this short stretch of road so it could be four lanes, but it has been a terrific success, IME making a journey that use to take me on average 40 minutes, just 20 minutes!! And that is without any other changes (like faster ticketing, multi-door operation).

    Now I haven't looked at the SW corridor in detail to see if the same is possible there at the pinch points, but the above should be an example of what BusConnect will be doing through out the city.

    It isn’t - unless you demolish Rathmines, Rathgar, Harold’s X, and Terenure villages, which is not going to happen.

    The degree of CPO activity that would be required along the rest of the corridors is massive - that is only going to end up bogged down in the courts for years to come.




  • It won't be ideal for the SW of the City due to a high degree of sharing road space but of course the other corridors aren't an ideal solution either, rather they are complimentary to future high frequency rail corridors. However vast improvements can be made and pinch points can be reduced or removed through taking parts of parks and gardens and adding bus priority lights/bus gates in the villages along the corridor.

    The SW of the City has the worst deal in that there's no firm plans for a rail corridor and the bus corridor is going to be lower spec than on the other corridors, even if a lot of money is spent. The SW will also benefit from orbital routes connecting it to the proposed Sandyford-Swords Metro line.

    Even still. It would be best if the NTA published at least a provisional plan for a SW to NE metro route.




  • cgcsb wrote: »
    It won't be ideal for the SW of the City due to a high degree of sharing road space but of course the other corridors aren't an ideal solution either, rather they are complimentary to future high frequency rail corridors. However vast improvements can be made and pinch points can be reduced or removed through taking parts of parks and gardens and adding bus priority lights/bus gates in the villages along the corridor.

    The SW of the City has the worst deal in that there's no firm plans for a rail corridor and the bus corridor is going to be lower spec than on the other corridors, even if a lot of money is spent. The SW will also benefit from orbital routes connecting it to the proposed Sandyford-Swords Metro line.

    Even still. It would be best if the NTA published at least a provisional plan for a SW to NE metro route.

    I’d like to know if the orbital routes will be brt standard.
    As a resident of the sw area I’m not happy to accept that we’ll get a lower spec bus corridor at all. If your going to do something right do it properly, don’t waste massive amounts of money on a half arsed job that’s not going to reduce journey times or increase frequency.
    The money should be used for other large infrastructure improvements that will make a difference.


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  • when the bus corridors are built will they be restricted to a certain type of bus service or will the likes of Bus Eireann expressway be able to use them?




  • roadmaster wrote: »
    when the bus corridors are built will they be restricted to a certain type of bus service or will the likes of Bus Eireann expressway be able to use them?

    All buses would continue to be allowed use bus lanes. I don’t see why that would change.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    All buses would continue to be allowed use bus lanes. I don’t see why that would change.

    That was even the plan under the old BRT Swiftway plan, though they were to have different bus stops.

    I think it will continue to be open to all buses under BusConnects. Though hopefully with more restrictions on Taxis where needed and dedicated bike lanes where possible.




  • tom1ie wrote: »
    I’d like to know if the orbital routes will be brt standard.
    As a resident of the sw area I’m not happy to accept that we’ll get a lower spec bus corridor at all. If your going to do something right do it properly, don’t waste massive amounts of money on a half arsed job that’s not going to reduce journey times or increase frequency.
    The money should be used for other large infrastructure improvements that will make a difference.

    The outer orbital corridor will be easier to implement, as there is pretty much enough space for four lanes of traffic as it is along most of it in south Dublin (Green Route (Ballinteer to Old Bawn), Belgard Rd & Fonthill Rd on the south side. Some CPO activity will be required.

    The real issue will be the inner orbital corridors which certainly will require substantial CPO activity.




  • I thought the whole point of BRT was that they were segregated lanes?




  • I thought the whole point of BRT was that they were segregated lanes?

    Yeah that's what brt pretty much depends on. What it sounds like we are getting is a re branding of db and maybe if we are lucky some new busses.
    Somehow this will cost 100 million per year for 10 years!!




  • tom1ie wrote: »
    Yeah that's what brt pretty much depends on. What it sounds like we are getting is a re branding of db and maybe if we are lucky some new busses.
    Somehow this will cost 100 million per year for 10 years!!

    The BRT is not happening now, according to the latest info. BusConnects replaces it, the idea to upgrade the entire dublin city fleet in various ways, rather then just 3 BRT routes. It has it's pros and cons.

    BTW 100million really isn't much money for this sort of stuff. We spend roughly 40m a year just replacing 100 DB buses every year to keep up with normal fleet replacement schedule. And that is without any expansion of the fleet.




  • bk wrote: »
    The BRT is not happening now, according to the latest info. BusConnects replaces it, the idea to upgrade the entire dublin city fleet in various ways, rather then just 3 BRT routes. It has it's pros and cons.

    BTW 100million really isn't much money for this sort of stuff. We spend roughly 40m a year just replacing 100 DB buses every year to keep up with normal fleet replacement schedule. And that is without any expansion of the fleet.

    But I thought bus connects was brt? Doesn’t it say so in the ndp?




  • tom1ie wrote: »
    But I thought bus connects was brt? Doesn’t it say so in the ndp?

    No.

    A few years ago we had a project called Swiftway. Which was 3 BRT routes. Detailed plans were published, etc.

    The NDP included a new project called BusConnects, headed up by Jarrett Walker, a world renowned consultant who has helped redesign and improve bus networks in 50 cities around the world.

    It hasn't been officially announced, but rumour has it that the original Siwftwat/BRT project has been scrapped and instead BusConnects will look at improving the entire bus network, with a particular focus on 16 core corridors.

    We will need to wait for the detail plan for the BusConnects plan to know for certain what is exactly planned.

    I'm personally disappointed that the BRT element might not go ahead, but also look forward to hearing with Jarrett comes up with. When I've heard him speak, on radio here and reading his blog, he seems to have really good insight into how bus networks work and how to improve them.




  • Hmmm.. So I'm going to very happily say that I'm wrong!

    LXFyler will be very happy to hear that :p

    So I just took a look at www.busconnects.ie and the things up there now are quite different to what was first up there and what was first announced. Sounds like the project may have sucked in other projects under one umbrella and if it all happens then it would be really good news.

    Seemingly it now includes ticketing:
    https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/just-the-ticket/
    The second biggest source of bus delays, after traffic congestion, is the payment process at bus stops. Payment of fares by cash is still commonplace, slowing down the boarding time. Even when using the Leap Card, the complexity of payment stages means a high percentage of passengers have to interact with the driver, with resultant delays at bus stops. At busy bus stops these delays can be for several minutes. Multiply by the number of busy stops on a route, and those delays accumulate to add significantly to the overall journey time.

    Under BusConnects we will simplify and streamline the process of paying for bus journeys. We want to make the fare system simpler, and we also want to make movement between different bus services seamless and easy, without financial penalty. This will require a move to either a “tag-on” and “tag-off” facility, similar to Luas and DART, or a single “flat fare” approach in order to reduce the need to interact with the driver for fare payments.

    As part of this process, cashless operation will be introduced on all buses, to remove the delays caused by cash payments. Currently over 70% of fare payments are made by Leap card. As this increases over the next couple of years, the transition to a cashless regime will become easier. BusConnects will incorporate the latest developments in account-based ticketing technology, potentially allowing use of credit / debit cards or mobile devices as a convenient means of payment. This will also allow integration with other transport payments such as parking facilities and bicycle hire.

    All sounds great.

    It also seems to include BRT on three routes:
    Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) is a high-quality bus based transit system that delivers a service with higher speeds and quality of service than traditional bus services.

    We’re planning to do this by improving road infrastructure and providing specially designed vehicles, with rapid, frequent operations and faster boarding and alighting.

    We are proposing that a number of the Core Radial Bus Corridors will be developed as Bus Rapid Transit routes, where the passenger numbers forecast are approaching the limits of conventional bus route capacity.

    BRT will represent a major step-change in the provision of bus services on some of the busier bus corridors in the Dublin region.

    A typical BRT system uses multi-door vehicles, higher platforms for level boarding and stops that are spaced further apart than those that serve conventional buses. Using different vehicles than normal buses, a BRT route can cater for a higher volume of passengers than a normal bus corridor.

    In designing the BRT details, we will ensure that it is fully integrated into the overall bus system, providing a coordinated overall network.

    This one I'd be less sure of. It was a well informed source that said Swiftway/BRT had been cancelled, but perhaps they had just misunderstood and it has been just folded into the BusConnects plan or perhaps it has been cancelled and that site hasn't been updated. But I hope BRT still happens.

    Next Generation Bus Corridors:
    https://www.busconnects.ie/initiatives/next-generation-bus-corridors/
    At the heart of the BusConnects project is the proposal to develop continuous bus lanes, as far as is practicable, along the busiest bus corridors.

    The Transport Strategy sets out a network of bus corridors forming the “Core Bus Network” for the Dublin region. Additional Text. There are eleven radial bus corridors planned in addition to the Bus Rapid Transit routes, as well as three orbital bus corridors.

    At present, these busy bus routes only have dedicated bus lanes along less than one third of their lengths. This means that for most of the journey, buses are competing for space with general traffic and so are affected by the increasing levels of congestion.

    The resultant delays are a source of real frustration for people looking for consistent and predictable journey times. This makes the overall bus system less efficient, less reliable and less punctual. As a result, many people do not see any benefit in choosing bus transport.

    Our objective is to develop these eleven radial bus corridors and three orbital bus corridors so that each will have continuous bus priority – in other words, a continuous bus lane in each direction. This “next generation” of bus corridors will deliver a transformation in the performance of these routes, making it easier and quicker for you to come and go by bus, whether your journey is related to your job, your studies, or your social life and family life.

    We want to remove the current delays and uncertainties, so that in the future, bus journeys will be faster, more punctual and more reliable. Making those changes is an essential part of delivering a vastly improved service for passengers.

    Achieving this will, in some instances, require a widening of the road and changes to parking arrangements, but the end result will not just be better services for bus passengers, but will benefit all users of the corridor.

    Cyclists will be provided with safe cycling facilities, largely segregated from other traffic, along these routes. Pedestrians will benefit from additional safe pedestrian crossing points and reconstructed footpaths. Car users will have reduced interactions with cyclists and buses as well a resurfaced roadway providing smoother journeys with less wear on vehicles.

    We will also take the opportunity of enhancing key local centres on the corridors with additional landscaping and other works aimed at improving the local environment in these centres.

    Lots of really good sounding stuff on that site, it would be brilliant if it all happened. Of course the devil is in the detail. We will have to wait and see the detailed plans and then if they are actually actioned on.


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  • Lots of really good sounding stuff on that site, it would be brilliant if it all happened. Of course the devil is in the detail. We will have to wait and see the detailed plans and then if they are actually actioned on.[/QUOTE]


    well i'll give them one thing, between metrolink and bus connects, the nta really know how to hype things up and build up people's expectations. If they don't deliver itll be a huge waste of money and another example of a government quango making a bollix of things. I hope it doesn't come to that.




  • tom1ie wrote: »
    well i'll give them one thing, between metrolink and bus connects, the nta really know how to hype things up and build up people's expectations. If they don't deliver itll be a huge waste of money and another example of a government quango making a bollix of things. I hope it doesn't come to that.

    In fairness to them, they have a really good track record so far in delivering on projects. Well them and TII, they work closely together.

    Don't get me wrong, all their projects haven't been perfect or always on time, but in general public transport has greatly improved over the last 15 years.

    - The licensing of multiple intercity coach operates has mostly been a massive success. The quality of service in all respects offered by the new operators is VASTLY superior to BE and has lead to up to 60% increase in journeys on these routes. I love it and so do most who take them. Dublin Coach is the only fly in that ointment.

    - Luas has been a massive success, 98% public approval rating. A great example of modern transport and people love it. Some bumpy patches over the last 6 months with the introduction of Luas Cross City, but even those seem to be getting worked out.

    - Lots of other smaller modernisation projects, RTPI, Leap, GT/SG class buses, double deckers in Cork City, new bus stops and shelters in Cork City, journey planner apps, etc. All very good stuff.

    Frankly we have seen more positive change in public transport over the last 15 years, then the 40 years before it. Still loads more to do.




  • bk wrote: »
    I
    - The licensing of multiple intercity coach operates has mostly been a massive success. The quality of service in all respects offered by the new operators is VASTLY superior to BE and has lead to up to 60% increase in journeys on these routes. I love it and so do most who take them. Dublin Coach is the only fly in that ointment.

    Could you explain why Dublin Coach is a fly in the ointment? I've found their service to be great and the quickest option for Dublin to Belfast...




  • Could you explain why Dublin Coach is a fly in the ointment? I've found their service to be great and the quickest option for Dublin to Belfast...

    This stems from conversations over on the C&T forum. I've no personal experience of using them.

    Yes, their service to Belfast is excellent, with brand new coaches, but this is because they face lots of competition on this route.

    Their services to Limerick and the rest of the country are pretty poor. They are mostly using very old coaches and there are almost daily reports of these coaches breaking down. About a handful of coaches have also caught fire over the last year or so!

    Maintenance, cleaning and presentation seems to be very poor on these routes.

    On the Limerick route they face no direct competition and that seems to have lead them to operate a poor service overall.

    On the Cork and Galway routes, the NTA allows two companies to operate the route, but with 30 minutes between each departure. This seems to work well, enough competition that both companies stay on their toes and have decent quality of coach and service, while not too much competition that leads to nasty bus wars.

    On the Limerick route you see what happens when one company ends up with a monopoly and thus poor service.




  • Thanks for that, I had heard some stories about their buses catching fire, I'd always be in favour of ensuring the routes always have some well regulated competition to ensure quality. If there are going to be dedicated QBCs for Busconnects then it should be done properly, maybe only NTA/TII approved services can use the lanes, definitely will require bus lane cameras for enforcement etc.




  • Thanks for that, I had heard some stories about their buses catching fire, I'd always be in favour of ensuring the routes always have some well regulated competition to ensure quality. If there are going to be dedicated QBCs for Busconnects then it should be done properly, maybe only NTA/TII approved services can use the lanes, definitely will require bus lane cameras for enforcement etc.

    Just to point out Dublin Coach is a fully licensed service with the NTA, as are pretty much all coach and bus services that operate in Ireland. I'm not exactly sure how they ended up with a monopoly on the Limerick route, it seems to have been just an unfortunate turn of events there.




  • tom1ie wrote: »
    well i'll give them one thing, between metrolink and bus connects, the nta really know how to hype things up and build up people's expectations. If they don't deliver itll be a huge waste of money and another example of a government quango making a bollix of things. I hope it doesn't come to that.

    It's all well and good the NTA designing and planning stuff but if the Government don't bother funding these projects or prioritise policial stroke projects ahead of them there's nothing the NTA can do.

    How many times has the various incarnations of Metro been designed, only for it not to be funded.

    The ratio of designed projects in filing cabinets to built projects in the NRA/now TII must be around 10:1. Cork-Limerick is now entering it's 3rd design since 2000.


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