Advertisement
How to add spoiler tags, edit posts, add images etc. How to - a user's guide to the new version of Boards
Mods please check the Moderators Group for an important update on Mod tools. If you do not have access to the group, please PM Niamh. Thanks!

brt for dublin?

«1

Comments



  • tom1ie wrote: »
    hi all
    does anyone know what ever happened to this: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Bus-Rapid-Transit-Core-Network-report11.pdf
    I think the report is from 2014.
    Ive been looking at these systems on the internet and they seem to be quite popular in asia and south america.
    Do you think it could work here?
    The two routes identified on the website are Blanchardstown to UCD and Clongriffin to Tallaght.
    Do you think theyll ever be built?

    For the Blanchardstown to UCD, would they not be better to just upgrade the Maynooth line ?




  • All just a smokescreen for doing nothing.




  • Consultants are working on the designs at present, expect to see movement in new year as part of BusConnects




  • For the Blanchardstown to UCD, would they not be better to just upgrade the Maynooth line ?
    While I think there are still questions over the feasibility of a true BRT route through parts of the inner Dublin suburbs, I wouldn’t think so. For one, UCD is not directly served by DART (or LUAS for that matter). And large parts of Blanchardstown are a long way from the train stations on its southern edge. While BusConnects may turn out to envisage high frequency feeder services to rail services, that’s a very convoluted way to provide a journey between two major trip generators. And then there are all the shorter trips that BRT would serve along the proposed corridor. One needs to avoid discussion of proposed commuting solutions running between A and B simply in the sole context of trips between A and B.

    (The upgrade of the Maynooth line has many other merits)
    Consultants are working on the designs at present, expect to see movement in new year as part of BusConnects
    It will be interesting to see if BRT forms a cornerstone of BusConnects or is more peripheral. I’ve never been convinced of an enthusiastic backing by either politicians or the relevant state bodies for the proposed BRT routes, relative to other transport plans (and that’s before you get into can-kicking conspiracies). They do require significant funding and custom infrastructure, compared to ‘just’ reorganising routes using existing assets. If BRT turns out to be a requisite component of BusConnects it will undoubtedly impact any implementation timetable significantly and increase the risk of the plan being delivered only in part or even not at all.




  • Consultants are working on the designs at present, expect to see movement in new year as part of BusConnects


    Who is actually working on this ?


  • Advertisement


  • There's info on this here:
    https://www.busconnects.ie/news/busconnects-can-increase-bus-passenger-numbers-by-50-nta/
    Not sure how they're gonna implement these "next generation bus lanes" I don't see where the space above ground is.
    The cost of this project seems to be 1 billion euro. Seems like a lot of money with no tunnel to be built.
    It seems obvious to me to bypass the city centre using an underground tunnel for the brt, and if needed spec it that it can be upgraded for rail in future.




  • Who is actually working on this ?


    Consultants on a framework are looking at feasibility of 10 to 12 routes




  • So is bus connects not just a rehashed version of swiftway?




  • BRT done properly will cost money
    .. (it should still be a lot cheaper than luas), theres going to have to be proper platforms, possible change in road alignments, as well as a dedicated bus lane (a lot of road space) and a compete change to signaling..




  • Who is actually working on this ?


    Consultants on a framework are looking at feasibility of 10 to 12 routes


    Who ? What company ? Who is paying to this


  • Advertisement


  • Consultants are Jarrett Walker.
    The NTA are funding this.




  • I was wondering whatever happened to the BRT route plans in Dublin. I did a internet search and have been reading this article from Feb 2017 on the wasted money spend. Link Here


    https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/over-85m-spent-yet-implemented-12580665


    It will be soon be another 18 months on from this article (August 2018) and still no sign of BRT implementation. So it was more Bull**** as usual, another example of wasted NTA and government policy / money



    Late in 2018 or early 2019 if a election campaign starts i will be highlighting no BRT, No public infrastructure implementation in dublin or galway, cork cities to the idiot at the door.




  • Swiftway as a stand-alone project is dead. BusConnects is the new show in town. Add cynicism to taste.

    BusConnects currently includes delivering the previously proposed three bus rapid transit routes as one of its stated goals. However, I have seen it suggested (I can't find where I read it) that the actual plan, when it emerges into daylight, may not extend to using dedicated tram-like vehicles and instead, the BRT principles (dedicated lanes, high traffic priority, high-quality stops, cashless operation, multi-door use, etc.) are to be applied more widely over a re-designed network using the existing and future city-wide fleet




  • xper wrote: »
    Swiftway as a stand-alone project is dead. BusConnects is the new show in town. Add cynicism to taste.

    BusConnects currently includes delivering the previously proposed three bus rapid transit routes as one of its stated goals. However, I have seen it suggested (I can't find where I read it) that the actual plan, when it emerges into daylight, may not extend to using dedicated tram-like vehicles and instead, the BRT principles (dedicated lanes, high traffic priority, high-quality stops, cashless operation, multi-door use, etc.) are to be applied more widely over a re-designed network using the existing and future city-wide fleet

    If that means:
    No bendy-buses, then that is great news.
    Faster ticket validation would speed journey times.
    Enforcement of bus lanes is needed (possibly by in-bus ANPR enforcement cameras).
    Full bus priority at junctions.
    Simple fare structure to favour commuting and transfers.

    Then that would be wonderful.




  • What do people have against bendy buses?

    They're just another transport tool... There are places they suit, and places they don't...
    In Lisbon I saw articulated (bendy) trams similar to luas, there were other routes that only had small "traditional" tram cars..... It was horses for courses. the bendy teams couldn't go on those windy hilly routes, and the small trams couldn't carry the volumes and had longer dwell times..




  • Markcheese wrote: »
    What do people have against bendy buses?

    They're just another transport tool... There are places they suit, and places they don't...
    In Lisbon I saw articulated (bendy) trams similar to luas, there were other routes that only had small "traditional" tram cars..... It was horses for courses. the bendy teams couldn't go on those windy hilly routes, and the small trams couldn't carry the volumes and had longer dwell times..

    Bendy trams are not bendy buses.

    Bendy buses are three axle buses where the third axle is a trailer, articulated and designed to bounce. It has no exit doors and no ventilation - or at least those used on the number ten fitted this description. They offer no advantage over a DB doubledecker and they offer many disadvantages - eg they cannot go around corners. The number ten had to wait for a gap in traffic to go from Lincoln Place to Westland Row.

    Now if the bendy buses had four axles, and multiple doors they might be OK, but only if they can go round corners. The four axles removes the bounce, and multiple doors allows safe exit and reduced dwell time.

    The doubledecker is your only man*.

    *Noticed a single decker in Dun Laoghaire the other evening, so there is at least one left.




  • There are two single deckers for a specific route they can't take double deckers. The outer routes being transferred to Go Ahead will have more single deckers also




  • Bendy trams are not bendy buses.

    Bendy buses are three axle buses where the third axle is a trailer, articulated and designed to bounce. It has no exit doors and no ventilation - or at least those used on the number ten fitted this description. They offer no advantage over a DB doubledecker and they offer many disadvantages - eg they cannot go around corners. The number ten had to wait for a gap in traffic to go from Lincoln Place to Westland Row.

    Now if the bendy buses had four axles, and multiple doors they might be OK, but only if they can go round corners. The four axles removes the bounce, and multiple doors allows safe exit and reduced dwell time.

    The doubledecker is your only man*.

    *Noticed a single decker in Dun Laoghaire the other evening, so there is at least one left.

    You keep repeating this stuff without recognising why they didn’t work which was infrastructure related primarily.

    The problem with the articulated buses that the DTO insisted that Dublin Bus purchase was that zero infrastructure was put in place for their safe and effective operation.

    They were moved around from one route to the next and at no stage was the infrastructure modified - therefore you’re commenting on something that was not properly implemented. If the infrastructure had been modified then things would have been significantly different, but it wasn’t.

    In other words there were:
    * No extended bus stop bays to allow the entire bus length align with the kerb and therefore allow safe operation of the second doors

    * No priority measures such as retreated stop lanes or bus gates to allow the buses turn tight corners safely put in place (such as Lincoln Place on the 4 - not the 10) - in other words push the stop line on Westland Row further back to allow buses make the turn

    The BRT plans were predicated on the infrastructure being put in place before the articulated buses were put into operation. That’s a massive difference.

    Whether BRT as such is going to feature or not as part of BusConnects we don’t actually know.

    Now personally speaking I think double deckers are more suitable for the longer distances - articulated buses offer more standing capacity but expecting people to stand for that length of time is pushing things I think. Far better to try out tri-axle double decks with multiple doors such as those in Berlin. These offer the same overall capacity but more seats.




  • The doubledecker is your only man*.

    Double deckers have some major disadvantages that bendy buses can fix when used on the correct routes, in the correct manner.

    The problems with doube deckers are:

    - The bus full fallacy.

    Any of us who are regular users of Dublin Bus, will have experienced buses flying by your stop because the bus is full, at least from the drivers perspective, but you can easily see that there is plenty of space, it is just a few people standing by the driver, while there is actually plenty of standing room at the back of the bus and free seats upstairs.

    I believe the theoretical maximum of double deckers is in reality rarely met.

    BRT's with multiple doors and exit/entrance through any doors eliminate this issue and I honestly believe they reach their theoretical maximum capacity much more easily then double deckers, as we can easily see with Luas.

    - Accessibility.

    Obviously upstairs is a complete no go area for elderly and mobility impaired persons. Bendy-buses give these people a lot more space.

    - Slow dwell times.

    Needing to make your way up and down a stairs tends and then squeeze your way through the crowds is absolutely detrimental to dwell times.

    - Injury

    Idiots hurting themselves going up/down stairs. With modern public transport, their simply isn't the time for drivers to wait for people to get upstairs and seated before leaving a stop or it would murder dwell time. Obviously bendy buses don't have this issue.

    Obviously no one is suggesting doing the number 10 again. That was a disaster and pretty much a text book case of how not to operate bendy-buses.

    Instead what was suggested was to implement mainland European BRT style operations which is highly succesful and we are all use to from Luas:

    - 3/4 doors
    - Entrance/exit through any door
    - Off bus ticketing, zero driver interaction
    - Only on routes specifically designed for it, with the needed infrastructure and priority.

    While it wasn't suited to all routes, it could have been a great addition to our city and a very useful tool for core routes.
    *Noticed a single decker in Dun Laoghaire the other evening, so there is at least one left.

    There are currently two, but seemingly a lot more will be coming to GoAhead on the quieter routes.

    Interestingly one mistake people make about single deckers vs double deckers is in thinking that double deckers offer almost twice the capacity. It isn't the case. Due to no standing upstairs and the space taken up by the stairs, it is normally only around 20% extra. For instance 85 to 90 people (for most DB deckers), versus 70 on the latest single deckers down in Cork.

    The new BRT in Belfast is 100+ people, but then you have to keep in mind if those DB deckers are really meeting that theoretical capacity and what the impact on dwell times is.

    The advantage of deckers is that there is more seating space, but not necessarily much more capacity.

    The overall operating approach at DB is you will most likely get a seat, but you will also take almost all day to get where you need to go as they take a magical mystery tour of every estate in Dublin and spend ages boarding people at each stop (which of course are like every 100meters).

    In other European cities the approach is different, you will normally stand (if not elderly, etc.), but not for long as the bus gets to where you need to go in half the time.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    You keep repeating this stuff without recognising why they didn’t work which was infrastructure related primarily.

    The problem with the articulated buses that the DTO insisted that Dublin Bus purchase was that zero infrastructure was put in place for their safe and effective operation.

    They were moved around from one route to the next and at no stage was the infrastructure modified - therefore you’re commenting on something that was not properly implemented. If the infrastructure had been modified then things would have been significantly different, but it wasn’t.

    In other words there were:
    * No extended bus stop bays to allow the entire bus length align with the kerb and therefore allow safe operation of the second doors

    * No priority measures such as retreated stop lanes or bus gates to allow the buses turn tight corners safely put in place (such as Lincoln Place on the 4 - not the 10) - in other words push the stop line on Westland Row further back to allow buses make the turn

    The BRT plans were predicated on the infrastructure being put in place before the articulated buses were put into operation. That’s a massive difference.

    Whether BRT as such is going to feature or not as part of BusConnects we don’t actually know.

    Now personally speaking I think double deckers are more suitable for the longer distances - articulated buses offer more standing capacity but expecting people to stand for that length of time is pushing things I think. Far better to try out tri-axle double decks with multiple doors such as those in Berlin. These offer the same overall capacity but more seats.

    I think bandy buses are awful because I travelled on them. Nobody wanted to go on the trailer bit because it was noisy, un-ventilated and bouncy. The lack of infrastructure may be true, but Dublin City streets are not designed for such vehicles, and nor is Dublin traffic.

    BRT is basically a diesel powered rubber wheeled Luas, I can live with that, but use four axles, and possibly use overhead electric wires - trolley buses.

    In Nice they use tiny buses with standing room for 60 passengers, and seating for 20. When full they are like sardine cans, but are cheap, quick, and plentiful.


  • Advertisement


  • I think bandy buses are awful because I travelled on them. Nobody wanted to go on the trailer bit because it was noisy, un-ventilated and bouncy. The lack of infrastructure may be true, but Dublin City streets are not designed for such vehicles, and nor is Dublin traffic.

    BRT is basically a diesel powered rubber wheeled Luas, I can live with that, but use four axles, and possibly use overhead electric wires - trolley buses.

    In Nice they use tiny buses with standing room for 60 passengers, and seating for 20. When full they are like sardine cans, but are cheap, quick, and plentiful.

    People didn’t use the rear part because in general the centre doors weren’t being used which meant a trek to get on and off.

    Why was that? The rear part of the vehicle was normally sticking out in the street.

    Why was that? Because the bus bays were not big enough to allow the vehicles enter, line up and depart the bus stops safely.

    The buses could have been used safely and effectively if the proper infrastructure had been put in place. It wasn’t. That is the bottom line. To say that Dublin isn’t suited to them is nonsense. It could be if the infrastructure was put in place correctly.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    People didn’t use the rear part because in general the centre doors weren’t being used which meant a trek to get on and off.

    Why was that? The rear part of the vehicle was normally sticking out in the street.

    Why was that? Because the bus bays were not big enough to allow the vehicles enter, line up and depart the bus stops safely.

    The buses could have been used safely and effectively if the proper infrastructure had been put in place. It wasn’t. That is the bottom line. To say that Dublin isn’t suited to them is nonsense. It could be if the infrastructure was put in place correctly.

    The infrastructure for bendy buses turning from Lincoln Place into Westland Row does not exist anywhere - the turning circle of the buses is woeful.

    Now I agree about bus stops being inadequate, but some of that inadequacy comes from legal paid parking being too close to the bus stop for bendy buses. However, illegal parking was to blame as well.




  • The infrastructure for bendy buses turning from Lincoln Place into Westland Row does not exist anywhere - the turning circle of the buses is woeful.

    Now I agree about bus stops being inadequate, but some of that inadequacy comes from legal paid parking being too close to the bus stop for bendy buses. However, illegal parking was to blame as well.

    Again, this is nonsense. Yes it does exist. It is called a retreated stop line.

    Take a trip on the 14 to Dundrum and watch how it turns from Ballinteer Road onto Dundrum Main Street. It can only do so because the stop line is pushed back from the junction to allow buses safely turn the corner.

    The stop line on Westland Row would be pushed further back along the street to allow the buses turn and use the full width of the street to turn.

    That’s not rocket science.

    It’s called putting the correct infrastructure in place.

    With respect Sam, while the vehicle comfort may have been an issue, the vast majority of your complaints could (and should) have been solved by putting infrastructure in place.




  • LXFlyer wrote: »
    Again, this is nonsense. Yes it does exist. It is called a retreated stop line.

    Take a trip on the 14 to Dundrum and watch how it turns from Ballinteer Road onto Dundrum Main Street. It can only do so because the stop line is pushed back from the junction to allow buses safely turn the corner.

    The stop line on Westland Row would be pushed further back along the street to allow the buses turn and use the full width of the street to turn.

    That’s not rocket science.

    It’s called putting the correct infrastructure in place.

    With respect Sam, while the vehicle comfort may have been an issue, the vast majority of your complaints could (and should) have been solved by putting infrastructure in place.

    Retreated stop lines sound great, but are not respected by taxis or cars. Neither are bus lanes.

    Comfort is not a word positively associated with the DB crop of bendy buses.




  • Retreated stop lines sound great, but are not respected by taxis or cars. Neither are bus lanes.

    Comfort is not a word positively associated with the DB crop of bendy buses.

    Really??? I must be dreaming every time the 14 makes that turn in Dundrum so, as it’s impossible unless the cars observe the retreated stop line.

    I don’t see that as a valid reason to argue against articulated vehicles - it’s more of an excuse (or a personal dislike of them) to be honest.

    The fact remains that they could operate if the proper infrastructure was in place. But it never was.




  • I would support the BRT idea but not the Swiftway one. Swiftway had a lot of elements which reminded me of the disastrous FTR concept. To me BRT should be bendy buses with multiple doors in the same livery as the rest of the bus network.




  • There's not much difference between BRT and a modern tram, to work properly they both need a dedicated lane, multiple entry/exit points, platforms at stops to easily enter.... Plus in the same way that the luas doesn't pull into stops it just pulls up to the stops...
    And luas would stop working if we let people park / stop on the line, enforcement is needed, (I was only running into the shop for a minute.. No bother your car was removed with a grab and the fine is X thousand...




  • Incidentally I don't care whether a brt system would use a single decker with 60 or 70 or a 2 way or 3 way bendy, if it was fast, frequent and reliable.... If if if.. 😀




  • Retreated stop lines sound great, but are not respected by taxis or cars. Neither are bus lanes.
    It's very easy to enforce a retreated stop line, remove the traffic lights forward of the line. put the lights back near https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3422107,-6.2504507,3a,75y,106.44h,84.05t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sGOeI1xQA1QBY2b4dRl0rCQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DGOeI1xQA1QBY2b4dRl0rCQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D184.13481%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en and remove the light from Sweneys


  • Advertisement


  • Do we know what the 16 radial routes are going to be that are proposed for bus connects yet?
    Indeed same question for the orbital routes. Or is this info not out until July?


Advertisement