Killing of Daniel Shaver.

Pithythefool

namloc1980 wrote: »

"Make a mistake and we will shoot you".

Is this really the crap they teach these guys at police academy? What the hell does that even mean? Why didn't they arrest them when they were lying prone on the ground? Unnecessary escalation by the police which led to the man's death. You need calm people in this situation, not some moron armed to the teeth roaring and shouting like a lunatic.

That's the problem with this whole issue, it is constantly being regurgitated on a case by case basis.....symptoms.

The actual cause for all these cases (and the hundred million you wont hear about) are the real problem.

Guns are a huge part of the problem in general. The extremely violent society of America is another problem.

To put it in a better light, if we could replace all officers in America with gardai......what do you think would happen to the gardai with no guns and decent manners etc?

How do you think a few gardai would fare in the likes of Compton, Los Angeles investigating a drug cartel house?

mynamejeff

end of the road wrote: »

the vast majority of the evidence is publically availible and everything most of us have stated corelates with it.

the vast majority ?

so you've read the police case files and transcripts of all the direct evidence given have you ?

Or your talking nonsense about something ypu have no real knowledge about


again

riffmongous

Pithythefool wrote: »

Its as simple as this. You fire a gun fully realising that it will kill. If you are in a life or death situation you don't figure on shooting the gun 20 times, you intend on shooting it a single time. If you can shoot more, you do, but you count the first bullet as your last.

Therefore you make that single bullet count and aim for the largest target, ie the body, and also the target that most likely to "neutralise" the threat, ie kill.

It is a not a situation where you are half-hearted, or hoping that your deliberately off-centre, much smaller target will meet with your single bullet.

If a speeding car is hurtling toward you, you throw yourself with full force and full commitment out of the way of it. You don't second guess and take a slight hop.

That might wash on american forums but it's a bit different from a European perspective.

My interpretation is moot anyway, I know for a fact that US police officers are trained that way.

And my point was that maybe they should be trained more so that they have more options than shooting to kill. If you know so much about US police I'd be interested to know how many hours they spend studying and practicing deescalation, tazering etc? Look at some German statistics, 85 bullets fired in 2011, 49 warning shots, 15 people injured and six killed. For a country of 80 million.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/polizei-schoss-2011-seltener-im-dienst-a-832037.html

pilly

end of the road wrote:

he shouldn't as he did nothing. no darwinism or darwin awards availible for this case, as backed up by the evidence, to which none of your statements are backed up by.

This has to be one of the worst arguments I've ever seen brought forward on Boards and I've seen some ridiculous ones.

Pithythefool

riffmongous wrote: »

That might wash on american forums but it's a bit different from a European perspective.



And my point was that maybe they should be trained more so that they have more options than shooting to kill. If you know so much about US police I'd be interested to know how many hours they spend studying and practicing deescalation, tazering etc? Look at some German statistics, 85 bullets fired in 2011, 49 warning shots, 15 people injured and six killed. For a country of 80 million.

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/polizei-schoss-2011-seltener-im-dienst-a-832037.html

What do you mean "it might wash.." differently? Are guns different in Europe versus America?

I think youre missing the point I'm making here......the reason America has such die-hard cops is BECAUSE it is such a die-hard society. Germany is not as violent as America, therefore it doesn't require the same response.

riffmongous

pilly wrote: »

This has to be one of the worst arguments I've ever seen brought forward on Boards and I've seen some ridiculous ones.

Why, what did Shaver do that was actually illegal or incredibly stupid? As far as I can see he was within his rights to have his gun out in his hotel room.

BattleCorp

riffmongous wrote: »

Why, what did Shaver do that was actually illegal or incredibly stupid? As far as I can see he was within his rights to have his gun out in his hotel room.

Not a great idea to be waving it out a hotel window though.

Probably illegal and definitely stupid.

I'm not sure it was Shaver waving the gun or if it was his mate but the cops responding wouldn't know which of them was waving it around.

riffmongous

Pithythefool wrote: »

What do you mean "it might wash.." differently? Are guns different in Europe versus America?

How people treat them certainly is. I live in a country where anyone can walk into a gunshop and buy a rifle, and yet the amount of guncrime is tiny

I think youre missing the point I'm making here......the reason America has such die-hard cops is BECAUSE it is such a die-hard society. Germany is not as violent as America, therefore it doesn't require the same response.

And what role do the police have in making it such a die-hard society? There is always going to be a feedback process, especially the police start treating every call out as a battlezone. How do you think German society would responds if instead of firing all those warning and injuring shots they just took out the bad guys straight away? For better or worse?

Now I realise the police have a tough, dangerous job, I've never said otherwise. But I don't believe increased militarisation and focusing on combat training to the exception of peaceful solutions are going to make things easier or be better for anyone. A society where the police can carry battle rifles but can't work hotel doors is not going to have a happy ending.

Autochange

myshirt wrote: »

The issue with American culture is it fundamentally doesn't give a **** about people, and that's what it all comes back to. They are ruthless. They'd kill their own mothers to make or save $5.00.

Black men are locked up. Black women are locked out. Lost your house, don't care. Homeless, don't care. An orphan, don't care. Mental health issues, don't care. Want an education, f#ck you. Violence in your neighborhood, important thing is it's not my neighbourhood. Gun store and off license on every corner, for 8 blocks, that's business.

There are very few voluntary organisations with some heart and humanity, but culturally Americans don't care. They were the ones who first mutated into this stepford wife two life thing. One life is how you present yourself to the world, big smile, happy happy happy. The other is the you when you go home, a crumbling mess of anxiety, loneliness, and fear.

They just don't give a flying f#ck about people.

Absolutely spot on.

riffmongous

BattleCorp wrote: »

Not a great idea to be waving it out a hotel window though.

Probably illegal and definitely stupid.

I'm not sure it was Shaver waving the gun or if it was his mate but the cops responding wouldn't know which of them was waving it around.

But did anyone wave it outside a hotel window? The testimonies from the other people in the room state that he was using it near the window, which is not the same thing. He was seen through the window.

Autochange

Pithythefool wrote: »

How do you think a few gardai would fare in the likes of Compton, Los Angeles investigating a drug cartel house?

Stabbed or shot and never seen again. Probably within a week in the worst areas with the worst people.

Pithythefool

riffmongous wrote: »

How people treat them certainly is. I live in a country where anyone can walk into a gunshop and buy a rifle, and yet the amount of guncrime is tiny


And what role do the police have in making it such a die-hard society? There is always going to be a feedback process, especially the police start treating every call out as a battlezone. How do you think German society would responds if instead of firing all those warning and injuring shots they just took out the bad guys straight away? For better or worse?

Now I realise the police have a tough, dangerous job, I've never said otherwise. But I don't believe increased militarisation and focusing on combat training to the exception of peaceful solutions are going to make things easier or be better for anyone. A society where the police can carry battle rifles but can't work hotel doors is not going to have a happy ending.

I think you hit the crux of the problem there. If anyone in your country can buy a gun and yet guncrime is so low.......

Broadly speaking, American society is truly on a decline. If you were getting sent out on the streets of LA as a cop, how much attention would you be paying to "tazers" and such in your training?

The cops are not the problem, theyre the symptom of a much larger, much more dangerous issue in America today. Teaching cops how to be soft in such a violent place will just be ignored.

And I don't think police being violent adds into a feedback loop, because the kind of people that are buying guns because of cops are probably not great people to begin with! Ie they are already criminals most of the time, I would guess.

Just imagine the likes of a gang like MS-13 working within the borders of Germany....its like a different planet over there. Catch-22s all over the place, and time spent criticising the police is just an utter waste of time. An easy target, but a pointless one.

McMurphy

BattleCorp wrote: »

Not a great idea to be waving it out a hotel window though.

Probably illegal and definitely stupid.

I'm not sure it was Shaver waving the gun or if it was his mate but the cops responding wouldn't know which of them was waving it around.

I thought it had been established that the windows were screened windows, ie no-one could have been seen waving it out the window, as that was physically impossible?

Dumb idea to get a gun out when oin the beer, but not illegal.

Pithythefool

Autochange wrote: »

Stabbed or shot and never seen again. Probably within a week in the worst areas with the worst people.

it would be a slaughter, and that's not a sleight against the gardai. They are just different measures for different societies.

pilly

riffmongous wrote:

Why, what did Shaver do that was actually illegal or incredibly stupid? As far as I can see he was within his rights to have his gun out in his hotel room.

Did you read what I was replying to?

namloc1980

Rick Shaw wrote: »

I thought it had been established that the windows were screened windows, ie no-one could have been seen waving it out the window, as that was physically impossible?

Dumb idea to get a gun out when oin the beer, but not illegal.

Don't be bringing facts into this.

What I find interesting is that in an open carry state someone rang the cops because they saw someone openly carrying a gun.

BattleCorp

namloc1980 wrote: »

Don't be bringing facts into this.

What I find interesting is that in an open carry state someone rang the cops because they saw someone openly carrying a gun.

There are plenty of places where it is inappropriate to have a gun in an open carry State. They might have felt he was a potential shooter.

I would have thought it would be unusual to be waving a rifle around a hotel room. Not illegal, just unusual.

namloc1980

Imagine you're in this guy's position. Cop roaring at you. You've already been warned that if you make a "mistake" you'll be shot. Nerves all over the place. You're then told to put your hands in the air and not to put them down for any reason.....and then you're told to crawl! WTF?

This guy was always going to make a "mistake" because the cops had no idea what they were doing. His only mistake was encountering a group of trigger happy hot heads who didn't have the training, temperament or competence to handle the situation peacefully.

GreeBo

BattleCorp wrote: »

Yep, I'll agree with your statement there. It's fair to say he didn't have a rifle in his waistband. But how were the cops to know that he didn't have a handgun in his waistband?

I'm not trying to be awkward or argue with you for the sake of it. It's a serious point. How would the cops know the guy was unarmed?

Indeed how are they to know you dont have one in your car, better shoot your first, just in case.

Hmm that mother might have a AK47 in her pram, better take her out too.

Whew! busy day

GreeBo

BattleCorp wrote: »

There are times that shooting an unarmed person 5 times in the chest isn't illegal too.

The cop had a trial and the jury agreed that he didn't murder Shaver. Therefore what he did was deemed legal.

Ireland is a utopia compared to the US. We don't have the same kind of sh1te that the cops have to deal with over there so it's not right for us to judge. We don't know the emotions going through a cop when he is faced with potential life or death situations on a daily basis. I'd imagine that we'd all get pretty jittery on the job facing that all the time.

The only reason he didn't get done for murder was because of the stupid rule/precedence in the US that enables cops to shoot a suspect even if they incorrectly believe they are in danger.

The reality is that he shot an unarmed man who was drunk and scared witless on the floor of a hotel surrounded by heavily armed cops.

namloc1980

BattleCorp wrote: »

We don't know the emotions going through a cop when he is faced with potential life or death situations on a daily basis. I'd imagine that we'd all get pretty jittery on the job facing that all the time.

What you don't want is people not in control of their emotions armed to the teeth. They're supposed to be professionals, not nervous wrecks with hair-trigger temperaments.

weldoninhio

namloc1980 wrote: »

What you don't want is people not in control of their emotions armed to the teeth. They're supposed to be professionals, not nervous wrecks with hair-trigger temperaments.

😂😂😂 So the shooter was a nervous wreck now? Jesus, the mental gymnastics are at Nadia Comaneci levels in here.

namloc1980

weldoninhio wrote: »

������ So the shooter was a nervous wreck now? Jesus, the mental gymnastics are at Nadia Comaneci levels in here.

Congrats on failing to read the context.

gctest50

namloc1980 wrote: »

Imagine you're in this guy's position. Cop roaring at you. You've already been warned that if you make a "mistake" you'll be shot. Nerves all over the place. You're then told to put your hands in the air and not to put them down for any reason.....and then you're told to crawl! WTF? .............

And he did all that, and crawled towards them

Then he reached for the waistband of his pants, roughly where you'd usually keep a gun

KKkitty

weldoninhio wrote: »

😂😂😂 So the shooter was a nervous wreck now? Jesus, the mental gymnastics are at Nadia Comaneci levels in here.

You don't understand this do you? Daniel Shaver was alone with armed police pointing guns at him. I've watched the video before you make any assumptions that I haven't. The guy who was barking orders at him wasn't doing his job plain and simple. He changed orders within seconds of each other. The cop who shot Daniel should be in jail. As far as I could see Daniel lost his balance and was reaching to stop himself from falling forward. I'd make mistakes I I was in the same predicament. Your head would be all over the place.

weldoninhio

KKkitty wrote: »

You don't understand this do you? Daniel Shaver was alone with armed police pointing guns at him. I've watched the video before you make any assumptions that I haven't. The guy who was barking orders at him wasn't doing his job plain and simple. He changed orders within seconds of each other. The cop who shot Daniel should be in jail. As far as I could see Daniel lost his balance and was reaching to stop himself from falling forward. I'd make mistakes I I was in the same predicament. Your head would be all over the place.

Ive been in that position. Drunk, with a cop shouting instructions to me, I complied with the orders, open the front door slowly, open the screen door latch, being your hands out through the door together slowly, then your arms and head, as my head came out I was face to barrel with the cops gun. It’s not that difficult.

Also, lost his balance? Jesus.

backspin.

namloc1980 wrote: »

Imagine you're in this guy's position. Cop roaring at you. You've already been warned that if you make a "mistake" you'll be shot. Nerves all over the place. You're then told to put your hands in the air and not to put them down for any reason.....and then you're told to crawl! WTF?

This guy was always going to make a "mistake" because the cops had no idea what they were doing. His only mistake was encountering a group of trigger happy hot heads who didn't have the training, temperament or competence to handle the situation peacefully.

That cop thought he was Sergeant Hartman from full metal jacket the way the was shouting instructions. He was on a serious power trip.

gctest50

backspin. wrote: »

That cop thought he was Sergeant Hartman from full metal jacket the way the was shouting instructions. He was on a serious power trip.

But Shaver got past all that stage and was crawling towards them

Then he stopped crawling and reached for his waist

backspin.

gctest50 wrote: »

But Shaver got past all that stage and was crawling towards them

Then he stopped crawling and reached for his waist

That is the only reason he didn't get done for murder. But the cop was trigger happy. He looked like he didn't give a damn about having to kill him, it seemed he even relished the prospect. Scumbag of a cop and totally unsuited to the job.

KKkitty

weldoninhio wrote: »

Ive been in that position. Drunk, with a cop shouting instructions to me, I complied with the orders, open the front door slowly, open the screen door latch, being your hands out through the door together slowly, then your arms and head, as my head came out I was face to barrel with the cops gun. It’s not that difficult.

Also, lost his balance? Jesus.

So you were on your own I take it and drunk but still complied with orders. Good on you but you're not Daniel Shaver are you! What you faced was most likely very different from what Daniel went through before he died. They could have tased him, treated him the same as the female but no they didn't because he was male. Women can't have concealed weapons but hey men can. This whole situation could have been dealt with way better but no there was some jumped up armed officer with a gun that said "you're fcuked" on it. His ego is obviously bigger than his head.