Killing of Daniel Shaver.

MarcusP12 · 11-12-2017 5:05pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

valoren wrote: »

I've admitted I mis-interpreted the video as it is confusing. I'm not the first. I can admit I'm wrong there. But those bolded bits are more than applicable to Langley, the commanding officers conduct in the video.

clearly on a power trip barking ridiculously confusing orders to a scared ****less man.

"Crawl towards me,"

Shavers does so but his pants starts falling down, he reaches back and for Brailsford it looks like he's reaching and he shoots not once but 5 times.

Cops are trained to shoot to kill. He took 5 shots within 1-2 seconds. Hardly overkill. I've had the cops pull guns on me twice in the states. Once by the LAPD and once by Tahoe PD. I was extremely drunk in Tahoe. I was young, had no experience with US cops, but even I knew to follow exactly what they told me to do. My trousers and boxers could have been falling down and I still wouldn't have grabbed for my waist.

What would you describe as overkill??? The guy is dead for scratching his a$$! So is it shoot to kill in every scenario? Why not shoot to demobilize? Is death the only justice to be served?

I'm guessing you're American right? It would explain your tolerance or maybe indifference to this incident. Is any part of you concerned about this and other incidents involving fatal police shootings? And I'm not pinning it on the cops in general. I believe it's a consequence of a gun culture and they are fighting fire with fire in their minds...problems is there can be fire in any situation. And let's not even go into the regular mass shootings....

Used go love America when I was younger, spent a great summer in college there and have holidayed a couple of times since but recently, I'm not so sure about the place....particularly with who's in charge....but let's not go there either!

wakka12 · 11-12-2017 5:06pm

I can't believe the defence of the police officer on here, if daniel shaver was your brother or friend theres not a chance you'd be saying these things. You'd think he was murdered, because he was

MarcusP12 · 11-12-2017 5:26pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

MarcusP12 wrote: »

That only the one guy here fired, is noteworthy.

I think too much is being made of this point. Yes, there were six cops there and maybe not all six felt in fear for their lives. That's pretty much irrelevant though. As long as one of the six felt that the guy on the ground was going for a gun in his waistband, then that's pretty much justification for shooting.

It's an impossible thing to prove one way or another. If the cop says he believed the guy was reaching for a gun, then how do you prove otherwise when it can be seen on video that the guy is reaching back behind him. Perception is the key here. It's very probable that each of the cops there perceived danger at different levels. And it's totally irrelevant that the five cops who didn't shoot didn't perceive a danger level high enough to warrant them shooting the guy. All that counts is that one guy did. And it's what he perceived that counts.

People are making an issue also regarding the competency of the cop with the gun. This might be hard for some people to fathom, but if the cop was not adequately trained with the firearm, then it's not his fault, it's the fault of his employers for not training him properly.

Another point that isn't being discussed enough is how tense the situation there was for all involved. It was a fcuked up scenario where the guy on the ground was sh1tting himself and the cops were scared too. It's only natural for cops to be scared when called out to a report of some loon with a rifle sticking out of a hotel window. When things are tense, people get jittery. It's a normal reaction. And when people get jittery, they tend not to think rationally and logically. We can all say he should have done this, he should have done that, and in normal situations that's what should happen. But when lives are at stake, and people have guns drawn, it's easy for a situation to get out of hand. That can lead to mistakes and in this case, a loss of life. I'm of the opinion that this killing was possibly a mistake but probably not murder.

I respect a lot of the point you make for the other side of the argument....at least there's thought gone into them!
Do you not think it's pretty messed up that the person who basically handles the stress the least and perceives the risk the highest basically dictates whether this guy lives or dies. I know it makes no sense that the person who least appreciates the risk can put his team in danger but there's a fine line between someone seeing risk differently and someone who is trigger happy.

If anything I think the stress of the situation may be overplayed in the situation. I completely understand that it was a tense situation but it wasn't exactly a reservoir dogs style Mexican stand off either. We've all seen plenty of body can videos involving cops discharging their weapons where there has been resisting arrests situation and this I can completely understand. But this guy was trying to comply, he was confused, distressed, sobbing and pleading for his life, did not have any obvious weapon on his person. Not a recipe for any threat until he moved his arm towards his back. His behaviour to that point did not suggest that he was looking to shoot himself out of the situation. He had 6 cops with guns trained on him, if he was going for a weapon, it was only ever going to end in death before he even had a chance to discharge and there is nothing to suggest he wanted suicide by cop. His emotion and actions don't tie in with anything other than someone desperately trying to comply. That should have given him just that fraction of a second longer for the cops to assess the risk or warn him not to move his arm any further. He made a stupid move but didn't deserve to die because of it.

I would verge on agreeing that it was not murder, I.e. he didn't go to work intended to kill someone, but how he wasn't done for some kind of lesser charge is beyond me.

11-12-2017 5:45pm

wakka12 wrote: »

OJ isn't a murderer either? Lots of things , from corruption to good lawyers on their side to crucial pieces of evidence being inadmissible can mean somebody doesn't get sentenced for murder even if they did

We saw the video , we saw exactly what happened so unlike in other cases I don't see how you can say we are being armchair detectives.
Also given the amount of these occurrences and this being yet another case of police clearly abusing their power and ending a persons life and still being found innocent, doesn't that make you even a little suspicious of the verdict?

The video doesn't show what is happening with the other police - it doesn't show "everything".

Also, he wasn't found "innocent", he was found not guilty of a specific crime, and guilty - correct me? - is only without some doubt. If there's a possiblity he didn't commit the crime, then the law says he can't be guilty

MarcusP12 · 11-12-2017 6:03pm

Hmmmm.....i watched the video again at home properly and I'm not 100% sure this isn't a suicide by cop. It's a tough watch I have to say......couple of things stick out this time around.....firstly, he doesn't sound pi$$ed...sounds pretty coherent initially at least....secondly, the cop giving the orders makes it very very clear that if he moves his arm to his back, he will be shot and might not survive.....when this is said, the guy gets emotional....seconds later he starts crawling and having just been told he would be shot if he moves his hand to his back, he very deliberately and inexplicably does this.....and like he was told, he was shot. 5 times......the reason why a small part of me thinks it might have been suicide by cop is that when he was told not to move his arm or he'd be shot, the way his emotions changed, it was like he had decided that this was how he was going to go and that decision made him so emotional...you know, the inevitability of a innocuous action he was about to take. I'd say it's unlikely but having watched it again, a very small part of me thinks it's possible when previously I never considered it.

Doesn't make it any less excusable but just another angle.....

Think I might take a break now....am sorry I watched it again....pretty distressing.....

gctest50 · 11-12-2017 6:35pm

timmy880 wrote: »

It sort of looks like he is reaching for his waist but why are all cops intent on shooting to kill in the US? You can shoot a guy in the arm or the leg.............

That's not a "free-pass" kinda thing

Your leg is well-supplied with blood :

Won't last long if you hit a major one :

NSFW : Bank robber shot in leg by police, execution style

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJCbk2Zna6Q

weldoninhio · 11-12-2017 6:40pm

MarcusP12 wrote: »

What would you describe as overkill??? The guy is dead for scratching his a$$! So is it shoot to kill in every scenario? Why not shoot to demobilize? Is death the only justice to be served?

I'm guessing you're American right? It would explain your tolerance or maybe indifference to this incident. Is any part of you concerned about this and other incidents involving fatal police shootings? And I'm not pinning it on the cops in general. I believe it's a consequence of a gun culture and they are fighting fire with fire in their minds...problems is there can be fire in any situation. And let's not even go into the regular mass shootings....

Used go love America when I was younger, spent a great summer in college there and have holidayed a couple of times since but recently, I'm not so sure about the place....particularly with who's in charge....but let's not go there either!

I’m Irish, born and raised. Was in America once for 3 months on my way to Oz. Loved it. I’d have to look at the footage of other police shootings to pass remark on them.

MarcusP12 · 11-12-2017 6:49pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

MarcusP12 wrote: »

What would you describe as overkill??? The guy is dead for scratching his a$! So is it shoot to kill in every scenario? Why not shoot to demobilize? Is death the only justice to be served?

I'm guessing you're American right? It would explain your tolerance or maybe indifference to this incident. Is any part of you concerned about this and other incidents involving fatal police shootings? And I'm not pinning it on the cops in general. I believe it's a consequence of a gun culture and they are fighting fire with fire in their minds...problems is there can be fire in any situation. And let's not even go into the regular mass shootings....

Used go love America when I was younger, spent a great summer in college there and have holidayed a couple of times since but recently, I'm not so sure about the place....particularly with who's in charge....but let's not go there either!

I’m Irish, born and raised. Was in America once for 3 months on my way to Oz. Loved it. I’d have to look at the footage of other police shootings to pass remark on them.

Ah fair enough...jaysus man, you sound like you had a more interesting time than I did for my 3 month spell....!

Pronto63 · 11-12-2017 6:51pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

This is one fu*ked up case and video .... because you can see both sides.

On one hand this poor man was scared sh*tless. Trying to do what the police man said. Looked like his was trying to pull up his pants as he was told to crawl.

From the police side, he was not taking no chances. The guy was reaching towards his back after being told to keep his hands up.

** edit
After watching it again and having to think about it.... I do think he was gunho. I know we all have hindsight right now. But US cops face people with guns all the time. He should have waited until he saw a gun. It's almost like he was willing to bury him before having actual reason to.

You had an opportunity to watch again the cop didn't!!!!
He had to make his decision there and then. TBH I think I might've shot the guy the first time he reached behind!

Pithythefool · 11-12-2017 6:55pm

If it weren't for the heavy-handed police force in America it would be a warzone.

If it wasn't a hell hole of violence, there wouldn't be a need for a heavy-handed police force.

You hear more and more about police shootings and the mini scandals surrounding them, but you don't hear about the day to day craziness that a typical cop over there has to face.

Killing a cop is an honour amongst many of the scum-lord gangs, in many cases it can even be an "initiation test" to join a gang.

There are drug cartels all over the shop that regularly kill people in the most purposefully inhuman ways to send "messages", racial hatred (would you like to a be a white cop in Detroit?), random nutters seemingly everywhere, guns freely available legally and illegally, they receive relatively little money, next to no thanks.........

If I was cop, and I had the vaguest sniff that you might try to kill me....I'd have a really itchy trigger finger too.

Oh and the persecution of the police force (as a whole, not individually) isn't going to make them LESS likely to shoot, its going to make them feel like more of a target and MORE likely to shoot.

BattleCorp · 11-12-2017 6:58pm

timmy880 wrote: »

It sort of looks like he is reaching for his waist but why are all cops intent on shooting to kill in the US? You can shoot a guy in the arm or the leg. That's still severe but this officer loaded 5 bullets into a guy laying on the floor. It's a slaughter.

Timmy, it's time for you to get acquainted with the reality of shooting guns. It isn't like the movies. Check out the very very very scary stats below. It's not easy to shoot someone in the arm or leg. The cops aren't sharpshooters. And even if you are a sharpshooter, cops are taught to shoot to kill. The thinking behind that is that an injured person can still shoot back at the cops. A dead one can't.

In 1990, NYPD officer hit potential was only 19%. Eighty-one percent of the rounds they fired at criminals missed. At less than three yards, they hit only 38% of the time. From 3-7 yards, 11.5% and from 7-15 yards, only 9.4%.

It's taken from the following website. A very interesting read. https://bearingarms.com/mike-m/2016/06/02/individual-safety-whos-responsible/

RandomName2 · 11-12-2017 6:59pm

J. Marston wrote: »

Only saw this now. Absolutely incredible how the cop got away with this.

Not guilty. No wonder people are terrified of cops over there.

US cops like murdering people. They are armed and very, very dangerous. Americans like to put up with it, like the government spying on them, because it makes them 'safer'. It was unfortunate that protests about police related murders devolved into debates about race.

I have no idea why people would ring the police in the US. There's even been quite a few cases of the person who phoned the police getting shot. Why would you invite armed lunatics to your home?

J. Marston wrote: »

The same psycho with this etched on his gun...

Well to be fair, he wasn't wrong.

Pithythefool · 11-12-2017 7:01pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Timmy, it's time for you to get acquainted with the reality of shooting guns. It isn't like the movies. Check out the very very very scary stats below. It's not easy to shoot someone in the arm or leg. The cops aren't sharpshooters. And even if you are a sharpshooter, cops are taught to shoot to kill. The thinking behind that is that an injured person can still shoot back at the cops. A dead one can't.

It's taken from the following website. A very interesting read. https://bearingarms.com/mike-m/2016/06/02/individual-safety-whos-responsible/

Bang on. You shoot to kill.

You don't shoot in the vague hope that it doesn't kill.

BattleCorp · 11-12-2017 7:04pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

US cops like murdering people. They are armed and very, very dangerous. Americans like to put up with it, like the government spying on them, because it makes them 'safer'. It was unfortunate that protests about police related murders devolved into debates about race.

I have no idea why people would ring the police in the US. There's even been quite a few cases of the person who phoned the police getting shot. Why would you invite armed lunatics to your home?

Well to be fair, he wasn't wrong.

It would be interesting if all the cops decided not to go to work for a month or two. Then people would have an appreciation of what the cops do on a daily basis.

We are all right lads here but we aren't putting our lives on the line every single day we go to work.

Pithythefool · 11-12-2017 7:06pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

US cops like murdering people. They are armed and very, very dangerous. Americans like to put up with it, like the government spying on them, because it makes them 'safer'. It was unfortunate that protests about police related murders devolved into debates about race.

I have no idea why people would ring the police in the US. There's even been quite a few cases of the person who phoned the police getting shot. Why would you invite armed lunatics to your home?

I think youd find it enlightening to do a few weeks as a cop in the US, especially one of the more culturally diverse parts of it.

As for ringing the cops and getting shot by cops, well its a well known technique to lure cops into traps by pretending to be in need of help.

How helpful would you be feeling if you had to go into some ghetto to answer a call for help, knowing that? How on-edge would you feel?

BattleCorp · 11-12-2017 7:10pm

RandomName2 wrote: »

US cops like murdering people. They are armed and very, very dangerous.

And the people that they are dealing with are absolute saints eh. The cops face psycho scumbags on a daily basis. They risk being shot all the time.

And your point above about US cops like murdering people. Are there no good cops over there? What you are saying is the equivalent of saying all Irish are lazy layabout drunks. Some are, but the vast majority of us are not.

mynamejeff · 11-12-2017 7:20pm

Chrongen wrote: »

The police know when someone is unarmed. They know full well when someone is not carrying a gun. That's when they decide to shoot and make up some bullsh1t story as if we are idiots. They NEVER seem to fire when a suspect is armed and the KNOW he is armed because they are chicken.

And for those who think these cops are putting their lives on the line I would say bullsh1t. It's one of the cushiest gigs you can land. Far more farmers, lumberjacks, construction workers and fishermen are killed while "in the line of duty" that these trigger happy, psycho cops.

lol some people really know whats going on dont they ?

people like this simply add to the problem by stoking up fear and hatred of the police .

The same kind of idiot can be found shouting at passing patrol cars and acting the hard man online in between being a full time mad bastard.

sad really

weldoninhio · 11-12-2017 7:22pm

mynamejeff wrote: »

lol some people really know whats going on dont they ?

people like this simply add to the problem by stoking up fear and hatred of the police .

The same kind of idiot can be found shouting at passing patrol cars and acting the hard man online in between being a full time mad bastard.

sad really

ACAB tattooed on their foreheads too. Can’t stop going on about their “rights”, we all know the type.

mynamejeff · 11-12-2017 7:23pm

riffmongous wrote: »

This is getting a bit creepy, maybe you should get some help with your obsession

maybe but it doesn't make me wrong does it ?

just dont like people with agendas ya know

mynamejeff · 11-12-2017 7:29pm

end of the road wrote: »

the evidence does not corelate to your statement. the evidence states that he was not right to shoot the suspect, and that other cops would likely have not done the same, given that the evidence states the police officers were safe to handcuff the suspect. him reaching for his waste is irrelevant, given the others did not see it as a threat, and would have noticed if there was something such as a gun, hidden in his shirt.
i'm afraid the evidence does not corelate to any of your arguments, therefore they are invalid.

the trial saw more evidence than you have and they made a different ruling ,

so do you think you can make a better ruling with less information ?

or is it because you are just talking nonsense again ?

Jamiekelly · 11-12-2017 7:48pm

mynamejeff wrote: »

lol some people really know whats going on dont they ?

people like this simply add to the problem by stoking up fear and hatred of the police .

The same kind of idiot can be found shouting at passing patrol cars and acting the hard man online in between being a full time mad bastard.

sad really

Not "The police" but one police officer. There were 6 present, no one is blaming the other 5.

mynamejeff wrote: »

maybe but it doesn't make me wrong does it ?

just dont like people with agendas ya know

The irony in this alone is quite telling.

the_syco · 11-12-2017 8:07pm

timmy880 wrote: »

It sort of looks like he is reaching for his waist but why are all cops intent on shooting to kill in the US? You can shoot a guy in the arm or the leg. That's still severe but this officer loaded 5 bullets into a guy laying on the floor. It's a slaughter.

Have a watch of how quickly you will die if "shot in the leg"; NOT SAFE FOR WORK.

riffmongous · 11-12-2017 8:13pm

BattleCorp wrote: »

Timmy, it's time for you to get acquainted with the reality of shooting guns. It isn't like the movies. Check out the very very very scary stats below. It's not easy to shoot someone in the arm or leg. The cops aren't sharpshooters. And even if you are a sharpshooter, cops are taught to shoot to kill. The thinking behind that is that an injured person can still shoot back at the cops. A dead one can't.

It's taken from the following website. A very interesting read. https://bearingarms.com/mike-m/2016/06/02/individual-safety-whos-responsible/

He also used that article elsewhere with a different lead in for a different agenda, but even if it's correct (and I do have a feeling it is, even if there is no source for the stats), is always shoot to kill not the wrong lesson to take from it? Would another, better for everyone solution be that police should be better trained? Shoot to kill has a place of course in certain situations, but it seems it's often been used as an excuse

A primary, perennial argument of the anti-liberty Left (I know: redundant) is the great unwashed, the God and gun clinging denizens of flyover country, don’t need guns, in fact, they can’t be trusted with guns. They’re just going to shoot themselves, strangers, or members of their families! Leave it to the police. They’re highly trained professionals!

While some few might make this claim in good faith, most do not. In fact, they’re the very people screaming “black lives matter,” and doing their best to keep the police from doing their jobs. They’re the people encouraging, and bankrolling social justice organizations and the radicals that comprise them that inspire the murder of police officers. They’re the cause of The Ferguson Effect, which prevents the police from protecting the neighborhoods in major cities most in danger from the criminals they court and exalt. They’re the people that delight in “protecting” schools with thin pieces of sheet metal proclaiming “Gun Free School Zones.” They expect Americans to disarm, and when their lives are in danger, call someone with a gun and hope they arrive in time (prayer isn’t acknowledged or allowed).

https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2017/10/26/guns-leave-it-to-the-police/

end of the road · 11-12-2017 8:18pm

weldoninhio wrote: »

i've amended your post. Do you see the issue with police officers walking towards an uncleared hotel room.

again it's irrelevant as there was time to cuff the suspect. the evidence backs this up.

weldoninhio wrote: »

Survival? I didn't survive anything. I just wasn't an idiot. Shaver should be nominated for the Darwin Awards.

he shouldn't as he did nothing. no darwinism or darwin awards availible for this case, as backed up by the evidence, to which none of your statements are backed up by.

mynamejeff wrote: »

the trial saw more evidence than you have and they made a different ruling ,

so do you think you can make a better ruling with less information ?

or is it because you are just talking nonsense again ?

the vast majority of the evidence is publically availible and everything most of us have stated corelates with it.

Pithythefool · 11-12-2017 8:22pm

riffmongous wrote: »

He also used that article elsewhere with a different lead in for a different agenda, but even if it's correct (and I do have a feeling it is, even if there is no source for the stats), is always shoot to kill not the wrong lesson to take from it? Would another, better for everyone solution be that police should be better trained? Shoot to kill has a place of course in certain situations, but it seems it's often been used as an excuse

https://statelymcdanielmanor.wordpress.com/2017/10/26/guns-leave-it-to-the-police/

Regardless of articles, there is no such thing as NOT shooting to kill. You can dress it up in semantics, like "eliminate threat", but you never shoot a gun unless its fully knowing that it will kill.

All the sensitivity training in the world wont change that. And again, the problem is american society in general, not just a particular slice of it (ie cops).

riffmongous · 11-12-2017 8:42pm

Pithythefool wrote: »

Regardless of articles, there is no such thing as NOT shooting to kill. You can dress it up in semantics, like "eliminate threat", but you never shoot a gun unless its fully knowing that it will kill.

All the sensitivity training in the world wont change that. And again, the problem is american society in general, not just a particular slice of it (ie cops).

I would say 'knowing it can kill', and I'm not convinced that shoot to kill or shooting for the centre of mass if you like is the only option, as I've noticed quite a few police shootings in Germany over the last few years where the suspects where shot in the limbs. Not to say that the Polizei dont shoot centre of mass when the situation requires it of course.

Nabber · 11-12-2017 8:47pm

So American police shoot white guys too?

Given what happened in Las Vegas, you’d expect that a guy waving a gun from a balcony of a hotel is going to be met with extreme force.

I’ve never been in a life or death situation. So obeying simple orders could be near impossible and remain calm on the police side may be equally as difficult.

Sentiments against the USA police is low in some parts of society, coupled with active shooters against the police, Islamic Terror and suicide by cop....
I doubt it’s an easy time to be a cop.

Pithythefool · 11-12-2017 8:58pm

riffmongous wrote: »

I would say 'knowing it can kill', and I'm not convinced that shoot to kill or shooting for the centre of mass if you like is the only option, as I've noticed quite a few police shootings in Germany over the last few years where the suspects where shot in the limbs. Not to say that the Polizei dont shoot centre of mass when the situation requires it of course.

Its as simple as this. You fire a gun fully realising that it will kill. If you are in a life or death situation you don't figure on shooting the gun 20 times, you intend on shooting it a single time. If you can shoot more, you do, but you count the first bullet as your last.

Therefore you make that single bullet count and aim for the largest target, ie the body, and also the target that most likely to "neutralise" the threat, ie kill.

It is a not a situation where you are half-hearted, or hoping that your deliberately off-centre, much smaller target will meet with your single bullet.

If a speeding car is hurtling toward you, you throw yourself with full force and full commitment out of the way of it. You don't second guess and take a slight hop.

My interpretation is moot anyway, I know for a fact that US police officers are trained that way.

riffmongous · 11-12-2017 8:58pm

Nabber wrote: »

So American police shoot white guys too?

Given what happened in Las Vegas, you’d expect that a guy waving a gun from a balcony of a hotel is going to be met with extreme force.

I’ve never been in a life or death situation. So obeying simple orders could be near impossible and remain calm on the police side may be equally as difficult.

Sentiments against the USA police is low in some parts of society, coupled with active shooters against the police, Islamic Terror and suicide by cop....
I doubt it’s an easy time to be a cop.

This happened back in 2016 though, and he wasn't waving a gun around, people saw it through the window in a state that has open carry laws.

namloc1980 · 11-12-2017 9:03pm

"Make a mistake and we will shoot you".

Is this really the crap they teach these guys at police academy? What the hell does that even mean? Why didn't they arrest them when they were lying prone on the ground? Unnecessary escalation by the police which led to the man's death. You need calm people in this situation, not some moron armed to the teeth roaring and shouting like a lunatic.

Killing of Daniel Shaver.

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