Formula 1 2018: General Discussion Thread

Harika

The recent study of F1 drivers
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274080402_Formula_for_success_Multilevel_modelling_of_Formula_One_Driver_and_Constructor_performance_1950-2014

and in short
https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/fangio-the-greatest-formula-1-driver-ever

pjohnson

That RB link shows just how awful Schumachers decision to return was, the fact that it would drag him from 3rd to 8th.

LollipopJimmy

pjohnson wrote: »

That RB link shows just how awful Schumachers decision to return was, the fact that it would drag him from 3rd to 8th.

He wanted to race and as a fan I respect that more than some poxy list that means nothing in the grand scheme of things

Adamocovic

muckwarrior wrote: »

There were times when Webber had the upper hand on Vettel (first half of 2012 IIRC) and at the time the consensus was that after the diffuser rule changes the handling characteristics of the car no longer suited him as much. Then when Newey found a way to regain what was lost Vettel's performance advantage returned. Also, his performance against Ricciardo may or may not be explained by the car characteristics. In any case, I don't think Vettel is a prime example of a driver who can only drive a suitable car, but on the other hand I don't think he has as consistently gotten the most out of his cars as some other drivers.

Another reason I don't quite rank him with the others is his racing ability. Speed yes - he's undeniably extremely fast - but when he has to fight for positions his ability is lacking compared to others, which is something we've seen time and again over the past couple of years.

In short, I'm not trying to disparage Vettel. He'll undoubtedly be remembered as a great. I'm just saying that I don't think he's quite on the same level as some of the other greats. I honestly believe that if Alonso, Schumacher or a Hamilton clone were in the Ferrari for the past 2 years, they would have won the title.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on his ability and Ferrari.

Re-garding Ferrari, while I think they undoubtedly made strides I don't believe their car was the better like many do, at a certain point it looked the quicker but that dropped quickly. It's hard to argue against Mercedes considering they've won 6 championships in a row. As for the claim that Hamilton would win with Ferrari, it's hard to know, switch Vettel into Mercedes and you could argue he'd be dominating like he did his Red Bull days. No point going down the road of what if in my eyes.

Vettel when given the dominant car managed to win 4 world championships on the trot, even with a dominant car that is something that only a driver with real ability can achieve, and to me it's nearly as consistent as you can get in terms of getting the best out of your car. Hamilton has done similarly winning 4 out of the last 5 with the better car.

I really hope Ferarri close the gap more and we're treated to a brilliant season next year, sure Vettel had mistakes this year but I still have him firmly up with the greats. Hamilton is another one that is going down as one of the greats. It's crazy to think how many Championships either would have if the other wasn't about.

Again maybe it's just down to personal opinion, I used to hate Vettel, but I think with the dominance of mercedes over the last few years people forget just how good Vettel was during his spell as champion. The last number of years he's been trying to play catch up against a dominant Merc, against a great driver in Hamilton. Similar to Lewis during the Red Bull reign. He's still only 31 and I fully expect him to add another title. If Ferrari close that gap more who knows, maybe even next year.

Inviere

NSFW - https://cdn-b-east.streamable.com/video/mp4/s8fhr.mp4?token=L4bxUEHNLJJq0uRpnyY8Ow&expires=1542219930

quokula

Vettel is definitely an all time great and by far the best driver on the grid currently (though I rated Alonso more highly before he ran out of motivation)

People forget that his teammate Raikkonen is a world champion and used to be considered by many as the fastest driver in F1, and Vettel has made him look ordinary. He dominated Webber when they were team-mates (only extremely poor reliability for Vettel kept Mark in the title race one year) and as a rookie he turned up for practice sessions for BMW and outperformed their highly rated race drivers, before joining Toro Rosso and achieving the unimaginable by winning a race in a car that was barely worthy of scoring points, beating Lewis Hamilton in what was a dominant McLaren at the time. Then of course he went on to achieve utter dominance in a Red Bull that was rarely much faster than the rivals, if at all. For a dominant car, it never actually achieved 1-2 in the championship, and would have had a big fat 0 titles without Vettel in the car. By contrast, Merc have consistently been 1-2, and any driver on the grid could get in that car and win a championship as long as Toto let them race, as Rosberg proved.

The only blip in Vettel's career was 2014, which completely coincidentally occurred at the same time that he committed his future to a different team (and poor results were rumoured to make it easier for him to get out of his Red Bull contract), he was in a position where the car obviously couldn't win the championship regardless of how he drove, he had just had his first child, and his long term friend and mentor in F1 had just suffered a serious brain injury which would doubtless have impacted him.

Since joining Ferrari, he pretty much singlehandedly reversed their fortunes of falling further and further away from the top teams, but the car has never been in the same class as the Mercedes, and Vettel has still dragged it to multiple victories and nearly made a championship out of it. It's pretty ludicrously laughable to suggest that Hamilton could have competed for the title in a Ferrari, he wouldn't achieve half of what Vettel has.

Inviere

quokula wrote: »

Vettel is definitely an all time great and by far the best driver on the grid currently

That's a big big statement to make, and while I've a lot of time for Seb, I think to say he's by far much better than anyone else on the grid is not at all accurate.

muckwarrior

quokula wrote: »

People forget that his teammate Raikkonen is a world champion and used to be considered by many as the fastest driver in F1, and Vettel has made him look ordinary.

If Vettel made him look ordinary then what did Alonso do in 2014 when he managed to score 3x the points and finish ahead of him in all but one race?

quokula

muckwarrior wrote: »

If Vettel made him look ordinary then what did Alonso do in 2014 when he managed to score 3x the points and finish ahead of him in all but one race?

Like I said, I rate Alonso more highly. The two of them have been a cut above the rest of the field for the last decade.

muckwarrior

quokula wrote: »

Like I said, I rate Alonso more highly. The two of them have been a cut above the rest of the field for the last decade.

Fair enough. I really don't see how you wouldn't put Hamilton in the same category as Vettel though, and I say that as someone who can't bloody stand him.

ayux4rj6zql2ph

Alonso has 1 final race to go, does anyone know the last time that a driver has out qualified their teammate, the same person, at every race across a full season, I don’t know of it ever happening.

mickdw

Addyson Gray Glue wrote: »

Alonso has 1 final race to go, does anyone know the last time that a driver has out qualified their teammate, the same person, at every race across a full season, I don’t know of it ever happening.

On another note, how can McLaren be this bad. It boggles the mind.
The facilities and the staff numbers would suggest that they should effortlessly come up with a mid field car. To be running right at the back right now is hard to stomach.
I know we heard the stories of unhappy staff. It must really be a case of nobody giving a damn, and simply turning up and doing their hours and going home.
I always knew Bouillier to be a bluffer but I will admit that I did believe that it was 95 percent Honda that was downing McLaren. That is now clearly proven to not be the case.

Inviere

mickdw wrote: »

I did believe that it was 95 percent Honda that was downing McLaren. That is now clearly proven to not be the case.

Same here, I suspect many others too. The reality is, when Honda was with McLaren, it was an abysmal engine, bolted to an abysmal chassis. Today, they've a competitive engine (same donkey as in a Red Bull), but are still propping up the grid with their awful chassis and aero.

quokula

In fairness to McLaren, the Honda was a genuinely awful engine and incredibly unreliable, so they've had far less track time than anyone else over the last few years to develop their chassis, and the profile of the power delivery they were developing their chassis against was different to the Renault.

And ultimately the expensive and complex hybrid Formula has completely killed private teams and McLaren and Williams have been the biggest losers in that, as they are up against teams like Toro Rosso, Haas and Sauber who have major technical partnerships with the big teams and constructors. Force India seem to be the only team who've gone against the grain on that, and they bankrupted themselves in the process.

Jordan 199

Maybe Red Bull should put this on the back of Max's car for the next race:

skipper_G

Sauber continuing their revival, they've partnered with Charouz Racing to establish a Sauber Junior program. They've made some fabulous progress under Vasseur.

https://www.sauberf1team.com/news/sauber-motorsport-launches-the-sauber-junior-team

mickdw

skipper_G wrote: »

Sauber continuing their revival, they've partnered with Charouz Racing to establish a Sauber Junior program. They've made some fabulous progress under Vasseur.

https://www.sauberf1team.com/news/sauber-motorsport-launches-the-sauber-junior-team

They have made some fantastic progress under Ferrari.

Frank Bullitt

vectra

muckwarrior wrote: »

In short, I'm not trying to disparage Vettel. He'll undoubtedly be remembered as a great. I'm just saying that I don't think he's quite on the same level as some of the other greats. I honestly believe that if Alonso, Schumacher or a Hamilton clone were in the Ferrari for the past 2 years, they would have won the title.

Alonso had his chance with Ferrari and blew it.
Vettel has dragged that team back to the top, while using respect for his team mate, unlike Alonso that has greed written all over him.

Inviere wrote: »

That's a big big statement to make, and while I've a lot of time for Seb, I think to say he's by far much better than anyone else on the grid is not at all accurate.

OK then
Try looking at it this way
Had Vettel went to Mercedes and Hamilton went to Ferrari
I can only assume Vettel would be at least 8 times champ at this stage.
What would your opinion be on him now?

Inviere

vectra wrote: »

OK then
Try looking at it this way
Had Vettel went to Mercedes and Hamilton went to Ferrari
I can only assume Vettel would be at least 8 times champ at this stage.
What would your opinion be on him now?

I don't rate drivers purely based on how many championships they've won. If I did, the grid would be full of a lot of non rated drivers. I don't care to speculate on what if's & buts either. To somewhat answer your question though...I rate Seb highly, he's a world class driver, four times champion of the world, and I'd never bet against him on any given day. Is he "by far" better than Fernando or Lewis, as claimed? No, he's not. He is in their league though, and on any other day there's very little between them all things being equal.

mickdw

vectra wrote: »

Alonso had his chance with Ferrari and blew it.
Vettel has dragged that team back to the top, while using respect for his team mate, unlike Alonso that has greed written all over him.



OK then
Try looking at it this way
Had Vettel went to Mercedes and Hamilton went to Ferrari
I can only assume Vettel would be at least 8 times champ at this stage.
What would your opinion be on him now?

That's a big jump.
There is every chance Rosberg would have won more than 1 title and there is also every chance that Hamilton would have taken one or two in a Ferrari so instead of 4 5 1 Vettel Hamilton Rosberg, we could have 5 3 2

Inviere

vectra wrote: »

Vettel has dragged that team back to the top

Is that not like saying Lewis dragged Mercedes to the top? It's kinda silly to put an entire teams success on one driver... (plus he hasn't dragged Ferrari to the top either, he's got them to second place so far, no higher than Fernando got them)

Gaoth Laidir

The question is would Hamilton have made so many stupid mistakes like Vettel has? I doubt it. Vettel's self-implosion has been spectacular.

JPF82

Some comments here about Vettel and the Toro Rosso he won in. Iirc, that was a Newey based design so not a total dog as it is being made out to be. The win was indeed a spectacular result for the team. But they had developed somewhat from Minardi.

pjohnson

Was that the year Toro Rosso actually finished above RB?

Frank Bullitt

vectra wrote: »

Alonso had his chance with Ferrari and blew it.
Vettel has dragged that team back to the top, while using respect for his team mate, unlike Alonso that has greed written all over him.

When did Alonso not respect Raikkonen? Must have missed that one.

Jordan 199

pjohnson wrote: »

Was that the year Toro Rosso actually finished above RB?

It is. Toro Rosso scored ten more points than Red Bull Racing in the 2008 Constructors Championship.

Frank Bullitt

Jordan 199 wrote: »

It is. Toro Rosso scored ten more points than Red Bull Racing in the 2008 Constructors Championship.

It was also design by Newey as well. The STR2, STR2-B and STR3 were variants of the Red Bull.

chicorytip

mickdw wrote:

I'd give leClerc a few races and then I think he will start to get the upper hand. I don't know what kind of contract he would have signed but if he starts qualifying in front of Vettel, contract won't matter. LeClerc is the first driver since Schumacher to regularly put the car far ahead of where it should be and that was after only a few races.

Sauber are exactly where they should be - seventh or eighth. Leclerc does not appear to be that exceptionally talented. Most drivers on the grid would perform similarly in the same car. He has made major errors in races this season resulting in crashes. This is a strange appointment by Ferrari - considering their history of hiring experienced race winners - and was made primarily to counter the Verstappen effect. In terms of overall ability he's not in the same league as the Dutchman.

Burkie1203

chicorytip wrote: »

Sauber are exactly where they should be - seventh or eighth. Leclerc does not appear to be that exceptionally talented. Most drivers on the grid would perform similarly in the same car. He has made major errors in races this season resulting in crashes. This is a strange appointment by Ferrari - considering their history of hiring experienced race winners - and was made primarily to counter the Verstappen effect. In terms of overall ability he's not in the same league as the Dutchman.

Ferrari need someone who differs from Kimi in every way on track.

They also need to sort out strategy on pit wall too