Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Are too many teachers women?

124

Comments

  • Posts: 24,714 [Deleted User]



    Being a male around small children that are not your own is always going to be met with certain level of scrutiny and caution and albeit it is a highly sensitive positions dealing with young kids I am very aware that the general public do not look at men and women the same within this capacity. I did not consider primary school partly because of this. It was not the only reason but I bet every single male teacher you know has at least thought about it.

    I do outreach work where I'm around small kids in schools and again it would never even enter my head to be concerned about it. Its worrying over nothing imo.

    Did you ever hear of a male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation? I haven't and you can be sure it would be all over the news if there was an accusation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,854 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    I do outreach work where I'm around small kids in schools and again it would never even enter my head to be concerned about it. Its worrying over nothing imo.

    Did you ever hear of a male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation? I haven't and you can be sure it would be all over the news if there was an accusation.




    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/false-claims-have-made-teaching-a-lottery-for-men-fqk27zb2h
    A geography teacher subjected to false allegations of rape by a 14-year-old pupil at a private girls’ school says that he can no longer see why “any man in his right mind” would become a teacher.

    With one in five teachers being falsely accused of some form of misconduct by a pupil during their career, Kato Harris said it was like “buying a lottery ticket” for a man to join the profession.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭Kh1993


    brevity wrote: »
    The question I would ask is why don't more men want to be teachers?

    As a male teacher I can't understand why. College is great as there's women everywhere, high percentage of school management staff are men which helps too. Always good to get in to the sports coaching too for job prospects etc.

    Only thing I find is other men really look down upon you or take the jokes too far (pa*do etc), didn't put me off but I'm sure it does for some. Other lads will look at it as weird that you're working with kids.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    I do outreach work where I'm around small kids in schools and again it would never even enter my head to be concerned about it. Its worrying over nothing imo.

    Did you ever hear of a male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation? I haven't and you can be sure it would be all over the news if there was an accusation.

    I googled the phrase "male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation". Here is the very first result

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/98942078/Being-a-male-teacher-was-my-dream-until-I-was-falsely-accused

    Here is one from the times UK

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/false-claims-have-made-teaching-a-lottery-for-men-fqk27zb2h

    The falsely accused teacher "says that he can no longer see why “any man in his right mind” would become a teacher."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭mahamageehad


    Seeing as there is a gender imbalance in those roles, do you not find it somewhat unusual that there is no constant media reporting on the need for gender balance in those sectors?

    As someone pointed out earlier, there is also no campaign to get women into construction, a predominately male preserve or the general manual labour market where there is also a massive gender imbalance.

    I was brought up with equality and treated every one according to how I found them rather than how their gender would pressure me to find them. I find myself very uneasy with gender quotas targeting one sex in one profession when there is no similar campaign for the opposite sex in another role?

    Isn't/shouldn't that be the true role of equality, all equal all the time?

    Well, I find it somewhat unusual, but I don't wouldn't demonise the industries that are actively campaigning for more balance either. Particularly with STEM subjects and careers, there has been a push by gender equality groups to increase the diversity in these industries. I don't think that that's a bad thing in and of itself necessarily. Perhaps more concerned men and women should band together to increase pressure for diversity in these female-dominated industries such as teaching? These STEM pressure groups have been incredibly successful in terms of coverage, I think there's lessons that could be learned from them.

    I do find the manual labour market to be a bit of a duplicitous example though to be honest. There are more men in that market simply because they are physically more suited to the work. Also, how many men in those industries want diversity? One of my close friends qualified as a construction engineer about 10 years ago. On the rare occasions she was able to get a job, she said she found the working atmosphere both unwelcoming and uncomfortable. She ended up retraining in IT a few years ago. I know timing wasn't great in her case, but I've heard examples of female mechanics etc. not being welcomed with open arms.

    For industries where physical capability isn't a barrier - such as teaching or engineering or nursing or social care, I would thoroughly welcome initiatives to increase diversity. It would likely require new pressure groups to form however. I have mixed feelings about gender quotas, the majority of them negative. I don't think anyone is really asking for quotas here though, just more focus on initiatives to increase male pickup of certain roles.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    mariaalice wrote: »
    http://www.into.ie/pay/PayScales/

    So from just over 30k to 61k over 25 years.

    If your start at 25 by the time you are 50 you will be on 61k the upper end of the salary is good.

    Seems pretty good. I'm on about 37k, 20 years into an IT 'career' with much longer hours and fewer holidays. Different country but similar cost of living.


  • Posts: 24,714 [Deleted User]


    JMNolan wrote: »
    I googled the phrase "male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation". Here is the very first result

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/life/98942078/Being-a-male-teacher-was-my-dream-until-I-was-falsely-accused

    Here is one from the times UK

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/false-claims-have-made-teaching-a-lottery-for-men-fqk27zb2h

    The falsely accused teacher "says that he can no longer see why “any man in his right mind” would become a teacher."

    Nothing in Ireland though and that's what we are discussing. We have a bit more cop on here.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    I do outreach work where I'm around small kids in schools and again it would never even enter my head to be concerned about it. Its worrying over nothing imo.

    Did you ever hear of a male teachers life being ruined due to a false accusation? I haven't and you can be sure it would be all over the news if there was an accusation.

    Well I do not know to what involvement your programs go, I have done volunteer work at children hospitals as part of a group but it not the same.

    Two other ops have already answered your question.
    I know of a local prof that had his career ruined along with his mental health over an allegation.

    It is not that I worry about it, I am not in that position, I just understand the dynamic and how easily something innocent could be misconstrued...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    Nothing in Ireland though and that's what we are discussing. We have a bit more cop on here.

    Another quick google. Here is Ireland

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-teacher-awarded-700000-after-he-was-wrongly-accused-of-sexually-abusing-pupil-28950459.html

    Any other conditions? Needs to have happened in an odd month...? Specific county?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    JMNolan wrote: »
    Another quick google. Here is Ireland

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-teacher-awarded-700000-after-he-was-wrongly-accused-of-sexually-abusing-pupil-28950459.html

    Any other conditions? Needs to have happened in an odd month...? Specific county?

    This was actually a female teacher and a male pupil but


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/tui-warns-of-false-abuse-claims-1.1132711

    Here is a more generic look at accusations to teachers.

    The dynamic in Ireland is a littler different as there was genuine abuse cases at the hands of the church.


  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 24,714 [Deleted User]


    JMNolan wrote: »
    Another quick google. Here is Ireland

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/former-teacher-awarded-700000-after-he-was-wrongly-accused-of-sexually-abusing-pupil-28950459.html

    Any other conditions? Needs to have happened in an odd month...? Specific county?

    No need for the cheek, its quite obvious that's it's ultra rare. Sure you could just as easily have your career ruined by a false accusation by a female colleague in an office job, or a patient if you work in a hospital or who knows what.

    The point I'm making is that you can't live your live being worried about these things. Its the same as people saying they won't have a 1 on 1 meeting with women as they are afraid of being accused of something. I have 1 on 1 meetings in closed rooms with women regularly and I wouldn't give it a second thought. Its pure scare mongering trying to spread fear of normal everyday things.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,067 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    Accusations of sexual assault can happen in an career. Either by colleges or customers/pupils/patients/etc. It might be slightly higher in some areas but I don't know the stats but I think saying you won't be a teacher because of what might happen is more of an excuse people makes. It might happen the on a very rare occasion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Well, I find it somewhat unusual, but I don't wouldn't demonise the industries that are actively campaigning for more balance either. Particularly with STEM subjects and careers, there has been a push by gender equality groups to increase the diversity in these industries. I don't think that that's a bad thing in and of itself necessarily. Perhaps more concerned men and women should band together to increase pressure for diversity in these female-dominated industries such as teaching? These STEM pressure groups have been incredibly successful in terms of coverage, I think there's lessons that could be learned from them.

    I do find the manual labour market to be a bit of a duplicitous example though to be honest. There are more men in that market simply because they are physically more suited to the work. Also, how many men in those industries want diversity? One of my close friends qualified as a construction engineer about 10 years ago. On the rare occasions she was able to get a job, she said she found the working atmosphere both unwelcoming and uncomfortable. She ended up retraining in IT a few years ago. I know timing wasn't great in her case, but I've heard examples of female mechanics etc. not being welcomed with open arms.

    For industries where physical capability isn't a barrier - such as teaching or engineering or nursing or social care, I would thoroughly welcome initiatives to increase diversity. It would likely require new pressure groups to form however. I have mixed feelings about gender quotas, the majority of them negative. I don't think anyone is really asking for quotas here though, just more focus on initiatives to increase male pickup of certain roles.
    It was more an example of equality campaigning on one genders behalf rather than a requirement of 50:50 split in all industries.

    Saying that, though, one female mechanic I use occasionally is as good as anyone else on the floor for locating and fixing any problems I have and I would know of quite a few women in construction jobs who just do their job despite the 'atmosphere' as you termed it. And retained their jobs through the bust as they were good at it also.

    I would imagine a similar 'unfamiliar' unwelcoming and uncomfortable atmosphere would be there in any job with a large gender imbalance as fiends in the health and education industry would attest to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    brevity wrote: »
    The question I would ask is why don't more men want to be teachers?

    How dare you suggest such a thing? It's oppression by the matriarchy!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Accusations of sexual assault can happen in an career. Either by colleges or customers/pupils/patients/etc. It might be slightly higher in some areas but I don't know the stats but I think saying you won't be a teacher because of what might happen is more of an excuse people makes. It might happen the on a very rare occasion.

    I think it goes beyond this.

    I am not saying it is right but whether people want to address it or not when a grown man is in a position where he is working with small children, ears tend to prick up! Maybe a history of abusive priest have made us that way, I don't know.....

    Trying to pretend it is not a concern people have when choosing a career and about any associated sigma is I think just ignoring it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    brevity wrote: »
    The question I would ask is why don't more men want to be teachers?

    Nonsense, just set a quota. Disregard everything else. Once you hit that quota, everything is fine. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Speedwell wrote: »
    That's actually my point. When a female teacher does this, it's news. When a male teacher does it, it's business as usual. Despite this, male teachers still vastly outnumber female teachers in the search results.

    I'd say in a lot of cases a female teacher is never reported.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭mahamageehad


    It was more an example of equality campaigning on one genders behalf rather than a requirement of 50:50 split in all industries.

    Saying that, though, one female mechanic I use occasionally is as good as anyone else on the floor for locating and fixing any problems I have and I would know of quite a few women in construction jobs who just do their job despite the 'atmosphere' as you termed it. And retained their jobs through the bust as they were good at it also.

    I would imagine a similar 'unfamiliar' unwelcoming and uncomfortable atmosphere would be there in any job with a large gender imbalance as fiends in the health and education industry would attest to.

    I understand your point, but most of the STEM pushes initially came from feminist backed groups with a passion for that area. I wouldn't expect them to start advocating or campaigning for diversity for another gender in different industries though. One can't be all things to all people! Yes, there is certainly a gap for some of these groups to grow, and I would encourage groups like that, but I don't think the pressure should fall on existing groups to fulfil that need.

    Regarding the atmosphere comment, yes there are a small number of excellent women in some male-dominated industries and vice versa. And there are plenty of workplaces that have a great atmosphere. However, often when you're in the minority like that you need to be excellent, mediocre won't cut it. My da was a factory foreman for years, the best welder he ever had working for him was a woman. She got a lot of stick, but she stuck it out. My point wasn't that this is something specific to women, it's that once an industry is quite imbalanced, introducing diversity can be trickier and you often need a thick skin. Most people are not excellent at their jobs, they're average. And, if people see if you a token "diversity" hire, regardless of your gender or industry, average is often not seen as good enough. That can be off-putting for new entrants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Anyone watching Riverdale on Netflix? Very popular with teenagers apparently, at least my teenager and her friends.

    The lead teen boy has an "affair" with the female music teacher in her 30s. Not much of a deal is made about it - in fact the teacher is portrayed as sexy. All the girls and the guys cover up for her. Imagine it the other way round?

    In the same show, some of the boys football team have a book that keeps track of the girls in the high school they "scored" with - consensually - in a ratings system. They are kicked out of the school and also any chance they had to go to college is gone. One was sexual abuse, and one was immature dick behaviour. The same series shows plenty of dick behaviour as bad or worse than this by the girls, but they don't get kicked out of going to college for it, or even any repercussions at all.

    Also look at the recent Ming Flanagan incident. Fine Gael sent an assistant to an EU meeting for abuse survivors. Ming said "You don’t send a puppy to win the greyhound derby". Cue faux media outrage about the assistant being "extremely upset". Fine Gael or the media didn't seem to care about sexual abuse survivors being upset that no MEPs bothered to even show up to meet them. They preferred to make a story about someone's fake hurt feelings.

    Become a male teacher in this world? No thanks.

    The thing is, it isn't students suffering genuine abuse that are going to make up false allegations. It's the narcissistic types - male and female - that go on to become shock journalists that will do this for attention and social kudos and tweet about how "brave" they were, pissed off that they got an F on a maths test. And everyone will believe them. No one will believe a guy if a female teacher tries it on - or if they do will ask him what he is complaining about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,067 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    I think it goes beyond this.

    I am not saying it is right but whether people want to address it or not when a grown man is in a position where he is working with small children, ears tend to prick up! Maybe a history of abusive priest have made us that way, I don't know.....

    Trying to pretend it is not a concern people have when choosing a career and about any associated sigma is I think just ignoring it.

    I'm not saying it's a not concern but I never saw it stopping anybody who wanted to be a teacher from becoming one. I know a few people who gave the teaching thing ago or wanted to be teachers and didn't become one and the fear of being accused of something was always way down on the list for them not doing it.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,361 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Wrote this before in another thread, sums up my opinion on why I for one was certainly always interested in teaching and mentoring children and young people, but only ever in an informal capacity, because of the mind-numbing level of bureaucracy involved -

    I dunno about that PB, certainly not from my experience at least. While the majority of Irish primary school teachers are women, there's plenty of them are trying to encourage men into the profession because they aren't one bit happy with the status quo.

    Having been on the interviewing panel for various teaching positions, I've witnessed some examples of young men whom I wouldn't recommend, but the school principal and the independent adjudicator (both women, the adjudicator is often a retired principal) would nearly fall over themselves to hire him on the basis that he was a man. Any other criteria were secondary concerns.

    For years I've had people suggest I should study to become a teacher, and I gave serious consideration to it at one point when the recession hit and the Hibernia was like doing the ECDL - people who were wholly unsuited to teaching saw it as an easy route into a stable career. I wouldn't be suited to it myself for the mind-numbing amount of bureaucracy involved for what has to be said offers IMO very little by way of remuneration - while I absolutely love working with children and I'm passionate about education, I'd sooner do it in an informal, voluntary capacity and do it for free than have to endure what I saw my mother and most of her relatives on her side of the family go through (most of them are a mixture of primary and secondary teachers and lecturers).

    It's the same in social care here in Ireland - again a career dominated by women, and there were absolutely some feathers would ruffle when they encountered a man working in social care (some got over it, some didn't), but again it's a career where there are more men in management positions than there are on the ground. I'll still meet women who are crying out for more men to enter social care, but the money just isn't worth it IMO. Again it's something I do voluntarily rather than get bogged down in the bureaucracy for little reward.

    One of the reasons I detest the whole "You don't see women in waste management" arguments, apart from the fact the person who brings it up is being entirely disingenuous, is because I wonder - "Well who the hell would want to aspire to wade through other peoples shìt for a living? That's neither a career for young women or young men, for a number of reasons!".

    If people settle for crappy jobs that offer little in the way of career prospects, advancement or achievement, that is their choice, but we shouldn't be using that as a barometer for the kinds of careers that young people should be encouraged to aspire to just "to even up the score" so to speak.


    That should read 'independent assessor' btw, not independent adjudicator.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    I'm not saying it's a not concern but I never saw it stopping anybody who wanted to be a teacher from becoming one. I know a few people who gave the teaching thing ago or wanted to be teachers and didn't become one and the fear of being accused of something was always way down on the list for them not doing it.

    I think a lot of men just don't consider it and it does play into a reason why a lot of men do not consider teaching.

    You are talking about men who want to be teachers, I am looking at why the majority don't want to be teachers.


  • Posts: 24,714 [Deleted User]



    I am not saying it is right but whether people want to address it or not when a grown man is in a position where he is working with small children, ears tend to prick up! Maybe a history of abusive priest have made us that way, I don't know.....

    Trying to pretend it is not a concern people have when choosing a career and about any associated sigma is I think just ignoring it.

    Men working with small children is an everyday thing, I've never heard of "ears pricking up" except from a very very odd person on this site on this and maybe one or two other threads in the past. I think its a total non-issue for the vast majority and doesn't even enter their heads.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    kylith wrote: »
    Nonsense. Historically many men went into teaching careers. We need to look at why this has changed.

    There are more alternative careers in Ireland these days. Most men don't care about childcare in the school holidays, wrap around child care, etc. Most women with children do. So the men take higher paying jobs with longer hours and the women make the trade off for the lower child care costs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Men working with small children is an everyday thing, I've never heard of "ears pricking up" except from a very very odd person on this site on this and maybe one or two other threads in the past. I think its a total non-issue for the vast majority and doesn't even enter their heads.

    Men working with children is an everyday thing? Really?
    When is it an every day thing?

    And in what capacity?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Men working with children is an everyday thing? Really?
    When is it an every day thing?

    And in what capacity?

    Teaching?


  • Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Men are out there coaching swimming, soccer, rugby, and running scout dens in every town and every village every night of the week. Lots of men work with kids, the only stigma involved is in peoples imaginations.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,309 Mod ✭✭✭✭mzungu


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    The author of that study suggested holding fire on making any wholesale changes:
    The research, based on the US-wide National Education Longitudinal Survey, found that a teacher's gender had "large effects on student test performance".

    The report adds: "Simply put, girls have better educational opportunities when taught by women and boys are better off when taught by men."

    When a woman was in charge of a class, boys were "more likely to be seen as disruptive".

    Meanwhile, when taught by a man, girls were "more likely to report that they did not look forward to a subject".

    Professor Dee said educationalists should "hesitate" before advocating more single-sex classes, which could have other "drawbacks".

    But teachers could learn more about the "different learning styles" of boys and girls and receive more training "aimed at combating gender biases" in their own behaviour.

    Prof Dee added: "Perhaps the best policy solution is to keep an open mind about a variety of strategies that neither unequivocally endorse single-sex education nor rule it out of order together."

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/5294854.stm
    Permabear wrote:
    Remember, we're talking about a situation where a pupil does not encounter a single teacher of his own gender across his full 8 years of primary education. So there's a longitudinal dimension to this too that I'm not sure has been studied.
    A review of international research suggested that single sex education had negligible impact on achievement, the most important factors were "ability and social background of the pupils."

    I do think teachers should be wary of differences in learning, but I am not sold on the idea that having all female teachers will negatively impact boys.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Teaching?

    Whole thread is about why is there a disparity of women to men in teaching.

    National school are almost completely dominated by females.
    Has anyone ever had male teacher in national school in the first 3 or 4 years?

    I do not think currently my kids national school has any male teachers whatsoever.

    Going back to the early 80s I did not have a male teacher until 4th class so I was 10 I think....


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Candie wrote: »
    Men are out there coaching swimming, soccer, rugby, and running scout dens in every town and every village every night of the week. Lots of men work with kids, the only stigma involved is in peoples imaginations.

    Maybe and again I am not saying it is right I am just saying there are scenarios where I think people would think twice, but let's look at this and try and be honest.

    Football camp run by men in my local town every summer.
    For boys and girls. - Do not think anyone would have an issue with this. Kids are not required to get showered of changed is it outside parents usually hang around and watch....

    Tag Rugby and GAA - Same thing

    Swimming lessons for young kids - They call it the little swimmers where I am from. They have male instructors but never male instructors without female instructors, I think the main reason for this there is an element where the kids need to get changed.

    If two guys where running a swimming class for young girls do you think everyone would look at this exactly the same as if it was two women running a swimming class for young girls?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    went to a primary schools' inservice last year where there were 9/10 schools present
    I was the only male
    scary stuff


  • Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Maybe and again I am not saying it is right I am just saying there are scenarios where I think people would think twice, but let's look at this and try and be honest.

    Football camp run by men in my local town every summer.
    For boys and girls. - Do not think anyone would have an issue with this. Kids are not required to get showered of changed is it outside parents usually hang around and watch....

    Tag Rugby and GAA - Same thing

    Swimming lessons for young kids - They call it the little swimmers where I am from. They have male instructors but never male instructors without female instructors, I think the main reason for this there is an element where the kids need to get changed.

    If two guys where running a swimming class for young girls do you think everyone would look at this exactly the same as if it was two women running a swimming class for young girls?

    You asked if men were out there working with young kids and if it was really an everyday thing.

    It is, as I said, in every town and village. Men are out there coaching kids, running clubs, taking out scouts, teaching martial arts. It is completely and totally an everyday occurrence.

    Now you're changing the scenario to two men teaching an all girls swimming class. Now the answer I'd give here is that if two women were teaching an all boys class, they'd be stupid not to have a man around to take the kids to the loo or help them like that. And if two men had an all girls class the same applies.

    You're inventing obstacles, the truth is that it's happening and men are involved in all kinds of kids activities - as they should be - and not everyone is walking around in a state of paralysis, denying themselves the career of their dreams because they run a risk of a false accusation. The simpler and more prosaic truth is that men aren't entering teaching because they don't want to enter teaching, and the issues that need to be addressed to change that may very well include wariness of working with children, but it would most likely be very far down a list of other factors that present greater barriers.

    For example, the lack of permanent contracts, the conditions, the prospects and the various other reasons Spurious has posted about earlier from a place of experience.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    went to a primary schools' inservice last year where there were 9/10 schools present
    I was the only male
    scary stuff

    Did you know that the Chinese use the same word for 'crisis' as they do for 'opportunity'? :p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    went to a primary schools' inservice last year where there were 9/10 schools present
    I was the only male
    scary stuff

    out of interest (as a male teacher in primary)... have you an eye on a principal's position at some stage?
    In 2014, 68 per cent of principals appointed in secondary schools were men, even though women comprise 70 per cent of the Association of Secondary Teachers Ireland’s (ASTI) membership.
    here


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Candie wrote: »
    You asked if men were out there working with young kids and if it was really an everyday thing.

    It is, as I said, in every town and village. Men are out there coaching kids, running clubs, taking out scouts, teaching martial arts. It is completely and totally an everyday occurrence.

    Now you're changing the scenario to two men teaching an all girls swimming class. Now the answer I'd give here is that if two women were teaching an all boys class, they'd be stupid not to have a man around to take the kids to the loo or help them like that. And if two men had an all girls class the same applies.

    You're inventing obstacles, the truth is that it's happening and men are involved in all kinds of kids activities - as they should be - and not everyone is walking around in a state of paralysis, denying themselves the career of their dreams because they run a risk of a false accusation. The simpler and more prosaic truth is that men aren't entering teaching because they don't want to enter teaching, and the issues that need to be addressed to change that may very well include wariness of working with children, but it would most likely be very far down a list of other factors that present greater barriers.

    For example, the lack of permanent contracts, the conditions, the prospects and the various other reasons Spurious has posted about earlier from a place of experience.

    See I am not changing the scenario at all, the original conversion was why men do not teach in national school with very young kids, my original statement was to give at least some weight to the argument men being or feeling uncomfortable due to at a perceived stigma of having to take on an almost parental role like the example you give above such as taking the kids to the loo.

    I think that male teachers could worry that people might the get wrong idea around something that is innocent.

    The OP then came in and started to argue this point and talk about volunteer work they did or out reach work to which is vague, two more op's give examples of news reports where male teachers and been falsely accused of wrong doing or some kind of abuse.

    The OP continued in this vein of men work with kids every day.

    So now we are looking at after school sport programs....

    Kids 3 to 7 from play school to national school are left with staff and teachers. You leave them in their care.

    My kids as far as after school sports go at that age I usually stay and watch them I do not leave.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    See I am not changing the scenario at all, the original conversion was why men do not teach in national school with very young kids, my original statement was to give at least some weight to the argument men being or feeling uncomfortable due to at a perceived stigma of having to take on an almost parental role like the example you give above such as taking the kids to the loo.

    I think that male teachers could worry that people might the get wrong idea around something that is innocent.

    The OP then came in and started to argue this point and talk about volunteer work they did or out reach work to which is vague, two more op's give examples of news reports where male teachers and been falsely accused of wrong doing or some kind of abuse.

    The OP continued in this vein of men work with kids every day.

    So now we are looking at after school sport programs....

    Kids 3 to 7 from play school to national school are left with staff and teachers. You leave them in their care.

    My kids as far as after school sports go at that age I usually stay and watch them I do not leave.

    Why not?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Candie wrote: »
    Now you're changing the scenario to two men teaching an all girls swimming class. Now the answer I'd give here is that if two women were teaching an all boys class, they'd be stupid not to have a man around to take the kids to the loo or help them like that. And if two men had an all girls class the same applies.

    Also I think this is disingenuous.
    If you had a class of 5 year olds you think it would be equally silly that a female teacher help a little boy go to the loo?

    Have you even known a national school teacher who teaches infants or junior infants to be a male?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Why not?

    Well partly because I enjoy watching them as do almost all the other parents.
    Point I am making it is not the same as school where you are effectively leaving them in someones care for 3 - 4 hours.

    Also technically I can assume a teacher is vetted, I would not make the same assumption to the a member of the local football club.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    People have argued that men aren't interested in a relatively low paying, low status job, and that STEM graduates can get more money elsewhere. Obviously, the solution is that we should offer higher pay to male teachers and STEM teachers. The teaching unions would be fine with this - they've already shown that they're happy to have unequal pay when they ****ed their younger/future members over in the second last pay deal.

    Kidding aside (aside from the bit where I am paid at a lower point on a less generous pay scale than older colleagues doing exactly the same job), while I don't know that gender balance in most jobs is all that important a metric (it's much more important that gender doesn't prejudice outcomes in job/promotion interviews), teaching is an area where the gender of the teacher has been shown to have a big impact on outcomes for kids. We're doing a generation of boys a disservice as they are underperforming and will continue to underperform because we can't hire enough male teachers. We're doing the same to a generation of students (girls disproportionately) who have underqualified teachers or no offerings of STEM subjects like applied maths and physics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,862 ✭✭✭mikhail


    Noveight wrote: »
    Did you know that the Chinese use the same word for 'crisis' as they do for 'opportunity'? :p
    No, they don't.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭Noveight


    mikhail wrote: »
    No, they don't.

    tumblr_m4x9k7RCul1qh59n0o2_250.gif


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    out of interest (as a male teacher in primary)... have you an eye on a principal's position at some stage?

    here

    why?
    extra pay is terrible
    hassle and pressure is huge - paperwork, responsibility, inspections
    you're going to be in charge of a school and so trying to get a mainly female staff to change the way some things are done


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Also I think this is disingenuous.
    If you had a class of 5 year olds you think it would be equally silly that a female teacher help a little boy go to the loo?

    Have you even known a national school teacher who teaches infants or junior infants to be a male?

    yes, to the last question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    CRUSH THE MATRIARCHY


  • Posts: 24,714 [Deleted User]


    See I am not changing the scenario at all, the original conversion was why men do not teach in national school with very young kids, my original statement was to give at least some weight to the argument men being or feeling uncomfortable due to at a perceived stigma of having to take on an almost parental role like the example you give above such as taking the kids to the loo.

    I think that male teachers could worry that people might the get wrong idea around something that is innocent.

    It's opinions like yours (and a small minority of people in society) that are perpetuating the fear and "stigma" (there is no stigma imo except in some people's heads). You obviously have a fear of your kids around men, that's quite obvious. This has no basis in anything except some crazy notion that men must want to work with kids for bad reasons. It's absolute bull and thankfully the vast majority of people in the country would not even let it enter their heads that a man can't be in charge of kids on his own.

    It's only within a few steps of saying a man can't look after his own child or look after his nieces or nephews alone that's the road we will head down if the opinions you are displaying spread and intensify.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,076 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    I was reading a report from Bernardos - "MEN IN CHILDCARE IN IRELAND" - https://www.barnardos.ie/assets/files/publications/free/childlinks_body28.pdf

    Mostly people are in favor of men in childminding however there are definitely a cohort which are suspicious of men in childcare.
    The less positive responses were:
    believe it is a risk too great to take to prevent sexual abuse.’
    would feel uncomfortable with a man minding my children.’
    ‘Yes I do but not to change girl’s nappies as I believe women should do it.’
    ‘Would feel uncomfortable, woman are more understanding.’
    ‘I would prefer a female with female children for toilet training etc., apart from that fine.’
    ‘No I wouldn’t like it; it’s a risk I do not want to take for my child’s safety.’
    ‘I wouldn’t feel comfortable with a male caring for my children.’

    I also thought this was interesting
    A study of a primary school in Norway with a 50/50 gender balance in staff showed that young boys with male teachers do better in school.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,608 ✭✭✭newport2


    Gravelly wrote: »
    It's funny how the conversation on gender balance in the workplace differs so profoundly when people discuss male or female.
    • Why aren't there more female CEO's, engineers, computer programmers? Because we have not made these positions available or attractive to females, we must change the way we teach and work to make these jobs available to women. Companies with female CEO's perform on average 189% better (see the study carried out by my feminist empowerment think tank), female engineers are better at problem solving, female programmers make better software etc. etc. We must change the way evil men have set up society to keep the wimmin down - smash the patriarchy!
      vs.

    • Why aren't there more male teachers? Ah shure what do you want, priests is it? Isn't there loads of them, and they only want the high paying jobs, and shure they'd only abuse the pupils, and feck 'em anyway.

    This.

    I don't know what the solution is, but if things as they are now in schools were reversed with the system churning out better male than female results year upon year, the term "Education Gap" would be a norm in the media to describe the epidemic. If on top of that most teachers were male, it would be a given that there was a link between the two. Teachers are male, therefore male pupils are doing better, how could you not see the link?

    When any male dominated occupations come up, such as politics or STEM, the solution is approached along the lines of "how do we make these more attractive to women so that more will go into these fields?". Why not take the same approach with men in teaching, instead of "Meh, men don't want to do it, end of story". I think it would benefit both boys and girls to have a more balanced amount of teachers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    tastyt wrote: »
    One point, teachers pay is not anywhere near ****, top of the scales between 60/70k.

    Will ye cop on, what country are ye living in?
    A country where someone with a decent degree will be on 60k before they're 40. Before they're 30 in some industries.

    There's a huge wage disparity in various sectors. And unfortunately we tell young people to focus on earnings - current and potential - rather than aiming to do things they enjoy.

    We tell young people (men in particular) to aim for the high-flying jobs - doctors, solicitors, actuaries - because these are the ones where you'll be wealthy with a big house in 10-15 years.

    So why then would someone spend six years in college to go on a path where their earnings are so heavily capped? They see friends & siblings taking other career paths and doing much better than a teacher after five years.

    We've told them to value money over job satisfaction, and then we wonder why they don't apply for jobs that don't have a lot of earning potential.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chrongen


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.


    I don't know when or where the change occurred but in my primary school (2nd to 6th class) out of 21 teachers there was only 1 female.

    In my secondary school out of approximately 25 teachers only 4 were females.


  • Advertisement
Advertisement