#StopKillingCyclists - Kildare Street Tuesday 21st 5.30

tomasrojo

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I think one form of protest would be for cyclists to jump in their cars and see what impact it has, I mean with 70,000 odd commuting by car into Dublin, another 10,000 cars won't have much of an impact, will it?

I can't imagine how it would be organised, but I might even hire a car for the occasion.

fat bloke

tomasrojo wrote: »

I can't imagine how it would be organised, but I might even hire a car for the occasion.

I'd love to run an RTE ad campaign.

(1) - It's motor tax, not road tax.

(2) - One less car. -The cyclist in front of you has decided to leave his/her car at home. If you keep pushing, then tomorrow he will leave his bike at home.

tomasrojo

Jawgap wrote: »

I think the problem is that when cycling is at its max (the summer) the schools are out so vehicular traffic is at its lightest.

Personally, I'd go the other way......arrange monthly cycles for commuters to travel en-masse from outlying areas of the city to the city centre and encourage anyone who is considering cycling or who cycles infrequently to join in, offering them the protection of the 'herd' until their confidence builds - it's easy to ignore one cyclist, bit difficult to ignore several dozen. Plus it might generate a sense that there are more cyclists out there than is actually the case - and illustrate in a very visual way just how popular cycling is.

They do that in LA. Think it's called a "cycling bus". I'll look it up; probably misremembered that. Looks like quite a good initiative. LA has cycling modal share of less than 1% though.

EDIT: Bike trains, they're called:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/livable-city/la-ol-bike-mobility-plan-2035-cycling-20151210-story.html

Seth Brundle

My own view would be that every county councillor and road design engineer should be forced to cycle for at least two weeks to get an understanding of the experience.
It might help if part of drivers education involved experience as a different type of road user for a period of time.
Things might change then.

Jawgap

kbannon wrote: »

My own view would be that every county councillor and road design engineer should be forced to cycle for at least two weeks to get an understanding of the experience.
It might help if part of drivers education involved experience as a different type of road user for a period of time.
Things might change then.

The one I've never understood is when the Guards park up a HGV and invite cyclists to sit in it. Fair enough it gives cyclists an appreciation of what a driver can and can't see......

......but why not put a few HGV drivers on bikes and take them for a spin down the Quays? (Is this ever done?)

Likewise, I'd be all for getting certain coach drivers and have them cycle in from Santry to Drumcondra - I'd leave it up to the Guards to decide if, and how close, any pursuing coach should be

cython

tomasrojo wrote: »

They do that in LA. Think it's called a "cycling bus". I'll look it up; probably misremembered that. Looks like quite a good initiative. LA has cycling modal share of less than 1% though.

EDIT: Bike trains, they're called:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/livable-city/la-ol-bike-mobility-plan-2035-cycling-20151210-story.html

iBike Dublin were talking about running a bikebus on the quays as well. Can't find much about it now, but there is a youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ntfHXYH9RI

Also some material about their pilot ruin a few weeks ago (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y62bXFqH5IVwFAC13PHaLKKXdoB67HxTII65iaFeNHw/edit) but not sure if it's still ongoing?

cdaly_

thelad95 wrote: »

Hey, don’t you all think that too a certain extent bikers can be at fault too? I cycle to university every morning (about 20-30 minutes) with a luminous jacket, lights and a helmet on, the jacket and lights cost nothing as both were being given out free by the RSA at an event I was at and the helmet cost €25.

Whatever else, I would suggest you get some proper lights. The ones you got from the RSA are worth pretty much what you paid for them.

Idleater

Jawgap wrote: »

The one I've never understood is when the Guards park up a HGV and invite cyclists to sit in it. Fair enough it gives cyclists an appreciation of what a driver can and can't see......

Dublin Bus parked a bus in Trinity some time last summer (???) and you could sit in it and see what the driver could and couldn't see.

I had a good chat with them at the time about how this education should really be a two way thing - as I really only realised what the visibility was from the drivers seat when I sat there - previous to this I could only guess how little they could see. Interestingly, you can see more from a Dublin bus than a London bus due to the mirror design apparently.

To be fair to the guys (one cycled to the garage to work) they knew well the reputation of "bus drivers" but said that the initiative was to educate cyclists going up the inside of parked busses as well as people running for a bus at a bus stop.

Ewan Hoosarmi

07Lapierre wrote: »

Definitely agree that we need to learn from these fatalities...BUT we already know a lot!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20728611/

"A fatal injury of a cyclist is more often driver's fault than cyclist's (598 vs. 370)"

I wonder if the Irish figures would be similar. Is there any info on Irish stats?

Personally, I think it's highly regrettable that there is an adversarial relationship between motorists and cyclists. I'm not sure how this can be addressed, but it should be tried. We can't keep pointing the finger at each other. There are crap motorists. There are crap cyclists. There are crap pedestrians. We have to use the same space without any meaningful enforcement of the rules designed to keep us all safe.

07Lapierre

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

I wonder if the Irish figures would be similar. Is there any info on Irish stats?

Personally, I think it's highly regrettable that there is an adversarial relationship between motorists and cyclists. I'm not sure how this can be addressed, but it should be tried. We can't keep pointing the finger at each other. There are crap motorists. There are crap cyclists. There are crap pedestrians. We have to use the same space without any meaningful enforcement of the rules designed to keep us all safe.

Agree, but its Crap Motorists that kill people. Thats no excuse for Cyclists/pedestrians to behave irresponsibly though. Enforcement of existing laws and stiffer penalties / fines are badly needed.

Edit: I couldn't find any Irish Stats

Ewan Hoosarmi

07Lapierre wrote: »

Agree, but its Crap Motorists that kill people. Thats no excuse for Cyclists/pedestrians to behave irresponsibly though. Enforcement of existing laws and stiffer penalties / fines are badly needed.

Edit: I couldn't find any Irish Stats

Is it impossible to leave the finger pointing behind? Crap cyclists kill people too, normally themselves. And on, and on we go.

I realise that, as a motorist, I'm as welcome in this forum as a fart in a spacesuit, even though I've never killed anybody, so I'm out. See you guys around.

07Lapierre

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

Is it impossible to leave the finger pointing behind? Crap cyclists kill people too, normally themselves. And on, and on we go.

I realise that, as a motorist, I'm as welcome in this forum as a fart in a spacesuit, even though I've never killed anybody, so I'm out. See you guys around.

Your very welcome here..most of us "Cyclists/pedestrians" are also Motorists too

Take your point about finger pointing.

Annie get your Run

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

Personally, I think it's highly regrettable that there is an adversarial relationship between motorists and cyclists. I'm not sure how this can be addressed, but it should be tried. We can't keep pointing the finger at each other. There are crap motorists. There are crap cyclists. There are crap pedestrians. We have to use the same space without any meaningful enforcement of the rules designed to keep us all safe.

Would totally agree with this, I"m all 3 by the way but here's the thing (just as i see it). No one texts, calls or tweets radio stations to talk about those awful motorists, or what can be done about the scourge of the pedestrian. The only subject that seems to bring out anger and vitriol is the topic of cyclists. Why is that? I often think to myself when experiencing danger on the roads as a cyclist - 'they wouldn't do that to me if I was in my car'.

That's not to say every motorist, or bus driver or HGV driver feels this way. For example, every morning going through the PP cars stop and let bikes cross over at junctions near the bigger roundabouts. Cars move over in traffic when they see your flashing bike light coming up the left and sometimes a car will stay behind (me) on a country road rather than risk a pass as they know there's a junction coming shortly. The nastiness comes from a minority but it's very nasty and we do need to find a way to stop it.

Moflojo

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

We have to use the same space

This is the crux of the problem; sharing space.

It is totally ludicrous that people on bikes should be sharing space with 1.5 tonne hunks of metal travelling at high speed.

It's ludicrous. Absolute madness. But if something is absolutely crazy, but yet unquestionably accepted by society, is it actually crazy?

Pedestrians have footpaths.

Trains & trams have dedicated tracks.

Buses have bus lanes (mostly).

Motor vehicles [and bicycles] have roadways.

People on bikes have nothing. No proper segregated lanes. Not a whiff of a network of segregated lanes.

It's madness, and we need people to see it for what it is.

We could employ an army of behavioural psychologists to train everyone to "get along" and "share the road", or we could employ a small, dedicated team of competent designers to create the appropriate space needed for people who choose to cycle.

Jawgap

Moflojo wrote: »

This is the crux of the problem; sharing space.

It is totally ludicrous that people on bikes should be sharing space with 1.5 tonne hunks of metal travelling at high speed.

It's ludicrous. Absolute madness. But if something is absolutely crazy, but yet unquestionably accepted by society, is it actually crazy?

Pedestrians have footpaths.

Trains & trams have dedicated tracks.

Buses have bus lanes (mostly).

Motor vehicles [and bicycles] have roadways.

People on bikes have nothing. No proper segregated lanes. Not a whiff of a network of segregated lanes.

It's madness, and we need people to see it for what it is.

We could employ an army of behavioural psychologists to train everyone to "get along" and "share the road", or we could employ a small, dedicated team of competent designers to create the appropriate space needed for people who choose to cycle.

Problem with that idea is that cycling can never be 100% segregated or even 50% segregated so you're still left with bikes having to mix with other traffic. Only then other users, and cyclists, will not be as familiar/experienced with mixed roads, which won't augur well for anyone.

I'd suggest improving the quality of what we have, maintaining it better, ramping up enforcement and changing how toad traffic enforcement is carried out.

Annie get your Run

Annie get your Run wrote: »

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

Personally, I think it's highly regrettable that there is an adversarial relationship between motorists and cyclists. I'm not sure how this can be addressed, but it should be tried. We can't keep pointing the finger at each other. There are crap motorists. There are crap cyclists. There are crap pedestrians. We have to use the same space without any meaningful enforcement of the rules designed to keep us all safe.

Would totally agree with this, I"m all 3 by the way but here's the thing (just as i see it). No one texts, calls or tweets radio stations to talk about those awful motorists, or what can be done about the scourge of the pedestrian. The only subject that seems to bring out anger and vitriol is the topic of cyclists. Why is that? I often think to myself when experiencing danger on the roads as a cyclist - 'they wouldn't do that to me if I was in my car'.

That's not to say every motorist, or bus driver or HGV driver feels this way. For example, every morning going through the PP cars stop and let bikes cross over at junctions near the bigger roundabouts. Cars move over in traffic when they see your flashing bike light coming up the left and sometimes a car will stay behind (me) on a country road rather than risk a pass as they know there's a junction coming shortly. The nastiness comes from a minority but it's very nasty and we do need to find a way to stop it.

Every advert on TV selling cars, with a few exceptions, is full of happy people in wonderful shiney cars cruising along on prestine empty roads. You will see or hear a few of these ads every day. Constantly projecting an image of something that doesn't exist. The phenomenon of road rage is really interesting..

ThisRegard

tomasrojo wrote: »

They do that in LA. Think it's called a "cycling bus". I'll look it up; probably misremembered that. Looks like quite a good initiative. LA has cycling modal share of less than 1% though.

EDIT: Bike trains, they're called:
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/livable-city/la-ol-bike-mobility-plan-2035-cycling-20151210-story.html

Hasn't a similar thing started in Dublin recently, I saw it on Twitter last week.

Edit, someone got there before me.

Muahahaha

CramCycle wrote: »

I certainly believe cyclists can be at fault, I don't have specifics of every case but quite a few. In the details I have, just about half the fatalities over the past two years, only two had cyclists stick out as having no other person to attribute blame. One was returning from a decent stretch in a pub, with no lights, on a footpath, downhill and struck a bollard. The other, also returning from a night out (although no clear indication of intoxication), misjudged another vehicle, rear ended it and bumped the ground at relatively low speed. Alas it was awkward enough the the bump was fatal. In every other case, the majority of blame can be played at the feet of the other party. Mainly hit from behind, travelling at speeds in excess that conditions allow for, in daylight. Some were skimmed, some left hooked, all are no longer with us for reasons that no actions of their own would have prevented.
.

Is there somewhere where the Irish data for causes of cyclist deaths & injuries is published?

Corca Baiscinn

Muahahaha wrote: »

Is there somewhere where the Irish data for causes of cyclist deaths & injuries is published?

My understanding is that the data is published too long after the event to be useful or at least current. Inquests and Court Cases happen here a very long time after the events being inquired into. The RSA do some stats but not adequately enough I'm told.

Even without stats re cause and culpability I'd love if by 31st December the RSA or Garda could publish a county map of Ireland with location of all this year's cycle fatalities, time of collision and "This cyclist was/was not wearing a helmet/high viz/had lights" I'm not saying the first two should be mandatory or anything but afaik almost all this years fatalities were so equipped and died anyway so if given enough prominence it just might shut up the constant "but it's their own fault" brigade

Schrodingercat

Annie get your Run wrote: »

The nastiness comes from a minority but it's very nasty and we do need to find a way to stop it.

Some of the suggestions about protests and increasing congestion are what would make this worse. You would win more people over by smiling like a Cheshire cat when you pull in beside someone, and nodding hello, so you are seen as a person and not as a "bloody cyclist"

The protest on Tuesday was 20 minutes and all gone, and didn't cause too much traffic problems. Annoying people is a good tactic if your end goal is a pay rise, and you are in a position of power, but if the end goal is to get your fellow commuters to be nicer and more considerate to you, holding them up in traffic as part of a protest isn't the way to do it.

When I learned to drive I was thought you always have responsibility to more vulnerable road users. If you hit someone its your fault. On a dark road you slow down in case someone is there that you don't see(regardless if they make it easy to be seen). In a housing estate you drive slowly in case a child runs out.
On the bike I never go to close to a kerb in town in case a pedestrian walks out.

(obviously we should all do our bit re lights etc. to make it easier to be seen)

in 2016 there were 81 Drivers killed, 38 Passengers, 35 Pedestrians, 22 Motorcyclists and 10 Pedal Cyclists. You don't hear claims the 35 Pedestrians were at fault.

I'd like to see adds where traffic incidents are described, and then what if anything could possibly have been done to prevent it from both sides (regardless of blame, if they could have done something different, a hand signal, slow down, take the lane, not look at phone, better lights, not being drunk, anticipated a car was going to turn even if they had no indicator, watched the footpath better etc.). You may be completely in the right, but different behavior can help prevent collisions. (in a sensitive way without any victim blaming).

We all have to make allowances for the idiots who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near anything with wheels.

AndrewJRenko

Ewan Hoosarmi wrote: »

Is it impossible to leave the finger pointing behind? Crap cyclists kill people too, normally themselves. And on, and on we go.

Just for context, it is more than 15 years since a cyclist killed anyone in Ireland. And as for the crap cyclists that kill themselves, could you please point to any examples of where cyclists here have killed themselves?

I'm aware of two freakish cases - the club cyclist who came off during a fast descent, and the drunk guy who cycled onto the M1. I'm not aware of any others - are you?

Muahahaha wrote: »

Is there somewhere where the Irish data for causes of cyclist deaths & injuries is published?

Loads of stats on the RSA website.

Mercian Pro

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Loads of stats on the RSA website.

Very basic stats and virtually no analysis. You would have to wonder if they even read the Coroners' reports when they are eventually produced.

cython

cython wrote: »

iBike Dublin were talking about running a bikebus on the quays as well. Can't find much about it now, but there is a youtube video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ntfHXYH9RI

Also some material about their pilot ruin a few weeks ago (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y62bXFqH5IVwFAC13PHaLKKXdoB67HxTII65iaFeNHw/edit) but not sure if it's still ongoing?

We had some decent initial demand, but it's difficult to get people together at the same time. The video is of the pilot run.

We still fully intend on running this, but other things - especially the vigil and our cycle lane protections - have taken up a lot of our time.

If you or anyone else is interested, please leave us a comment on Facebook or Twitter (I BIKE Dublin) stating your route and preferred time. We would like to get several of these routes running soon - it all depends on demand!

AndrewJRenko

Mercian Pro wrote: »

Very basic stats and virtually no analysis. You would have to wonder if they even read the Coroners' reports when they are eventually produced.

Did you see these reports?

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Road-Safety/Our-Research/Collision-Statistics/Provisional-Reviews/

Kaisr Sose

A mental health nurse once said:

“You can tell a lot about somebody’s state of mind/mental health by the way they drive” Amen to that! The aggression and pent up anger of some motorists is shocking.

As a cyclist, I can only say driver behaviour on the roads was atrocious this morning. People get killed or seriously hurt in a split second, and normally for some moment of madness that was not necessary. Nobody seems to care that it’s a free for all on the roads for over a decade now.

Shame on all involved in the current madness on our roads. Drivers, enforcers, legislators, judiciary and planners. But hey, the cycle to work scheme was a great success. Let’s pat ourselves on the back. Great job!

It is time to something to address the real cycling issues – safety while cycling on our roads. They can use the health savings that aggregate from people leading healthier lifestyles through cycling. That’s how you encourage more people to take up cycling.

jimmycrackcorm

Annie get your Run wrote:

The nastiness comes from a minority but it's very nasty and we do need to find a way to stop it.

The only way is to have a go pro type video camera and use video to make a complaint. It's always certain people who act this way because they can without any consequences.

diomed

A solution must be to take some control from motorists.
Car have cruise control. Cars have GPS with speed limits on the maps.
The move must be to have car speed limited automatically by the car electronics to the speed limit.
We also need infrastructure that separates cars and trucks from bicycles and pedestrians.

ednwireland

nice bit of victim blaming from Mark cagney on tv3 his morning. Thought the dublin cycling campaign were very restrained.
Irelandam@tv3.ie

cython

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We had some decent initial demand, but it's difficult to get people together at the same time. The video is of the pilot run.

We still fully intend on running this, but other things - especially the vigil and our cycle lane protections - have taken up a lot of our time.

If you or anyone else is interested, please leave us a comment on Facebook or Twitter (I BIKE Dublin) stating your route and preferred time. We would like to get several of these routes running soon - it all depends on demand!

Good to hear! To be honest, and without meaning to come across as arrogant, I wouldn't be all that interested myself as a patron, so to speak, as I'm generally happy enough to cycle assertively on the road in town (though some judicious route selection and modifications are applied!), but I can definitely see the merit in the initiative for those who may be less confident.

I think I saw a call out looking for people to help out with running it on the quays and would have volunteered but currently rehabbing a long standing injury that means I'm commuting by bike inconsistently, and generally no more than 2-3 days in a row, so probably not much use to ye at present.

Macy0161

Schrodingercat wrote: »

Some of the suggestions about protests and increasing congestion are what would make this worse. You would win more people over by smiling like a Cheshire cat when you pull in beside someone, and nodding hello, so you are seen as a person and not as a "bloody cyclist"

Blocking traffic for the sake of it maybe, but every commuter cyclist shifting to car/ public transport would be a real eye opener for most of the population. Potentially a game changer in seeing cycling as a solution rather than a problem.

The main issue would be getting cyclists to support it as obviously we'd suffer by being stuck in traffic/ missing busses/ squashed on rail as anyone!