#StopKillingCyclists - Kildare Street Tuesday 21st 5.30

tomasrojo

thelad95 wrote: »

Also, why be a martyr to the cause and cycle in on a morning like this morning? I don’t buy that there’s ‘no other option’ of course there is and I certainly would rather arrive into university dry, relaxed and refreshed than soaked through and having had a few near death experiences due to incompetent/impatient drivers.

I cycled my two kids to school today. It took about the same time as normal, rather than 2-3 times longer. I didn't have any near-death experiences. It was absolutely fine. If I'd followed your advice, they'd have been an hour late for school.

AndrewJRenko

average_runner wrote: »

Yeah because drivers causes all the accidents!!


The cause of every accident should be published, because like the poster above, he/she believes it's always the drivers, while for fact we dont know.

Don't get me wrong there is some serious bad drivers out there but the same for cyclists, things that I saw this morning on the road from people was brutal and considering the conditions it was disgraceful.

Some examples:

Cork Street: 3 Big trucks parked in the cycle lanes.

Kilnamangh: Cyclist on the road, going against traffic no lights and wearing black at 7 am!!!

Crumlin: Car's darting in ahead of a bus while the bus is waiting for cyclists (I know a shock, the bus waited )

Pearse St: Cyclist in the luas lane and just merging in with traffic without yielding or looking over their shoulder!!!

We need to learn from these accidents and not hide from them

They're not accidents. They are collisions or crashes. Please stop trying to let people off the hook for their actions.

Did any of the cyclist deaths in the past two years due to the behaviour of cyclists or the lack of helmets/hi-vis?

1bryan

tomasrojo wrote: »

This may well be the worst year in over ten years by the year's end though. I do think the roads were safer from 2009 to 2013 (consistently below 10, despite rapidly increasing numbers of cyclists) than in the years immediately before and after, probably due to lower amount of traffic due to the economic crash, especially heavy vehicles.

Agree with this. In fact I think the strongest 2 data points you can correlate against are; 1) the volume of traffic, and 2) the number of gardai on duty.

Traffic looks like its trending back towards 1999/2000 levels (if not greater), and that won't abate any time soon. So, the one factor that is still within our controls is the numbers of gardai. The fact of the matter is, if people think they will get caught they won't take a risk. That extends to general driver behaviour, as well as things like having all working lights, etc on the car (anecdotally, from my cycle home yesterday about 1 in every 15 cars had at least one faulty light - in a 7 mile commute from town to home through built-up areas I saw zero gardai on duty).

magicbastarder

1bryan wrote: »

are you suggesting more frequent (ie: more experienced) cyclists 'switch off'? The implication being that less frequent (ie: less experienced) cyclists are somehow more careful?

That is a very ignorant statement.

i suspect it was made in relation to similar comments i've heard, regarding driving. that you're more likely to go into autopilot on roads you know. that said, if it's a road you know and there's no mental task of navigation, perhaps you've more capacity to pay attention to other details?
that's just me thinking out loud though.

tomasrojo

1bryan wrote: »

Agree with this. In fact I think the strongest 2 data points you can correlate against are; 1) the volume of traffic, and 2) the number of gardai on duty.

Traffic looks like its trending back towards 1999/2000 levels (if not greater), and that won't abate any time soon. So, the one factor that is still within our controls is the numbers of gardai. The fact of the matter is, if people think they will get caught they won't take a risk. That extends to general driver behaviour, as well as things like having all working lights, etc on the car (anecdotally, from my cycle home yesterday about 1 in every 15 cars had at least one faulty light - in a 7 mile commute from town to home through built-up areas I saw zero gardai on duty).

I agree with your general point, but with numbers that are relatively small, there are no guarantees about what trend you'll get from one year to the next. I think looking over about ten years you can see a trend, as as I said, it looks as if the underlying risk did fall between 2009 and 2013 and may be returning to the previous level. However, there are way more cyclists now than in 2007, so the fatality rate is lower than then.

But I appreciate the sense of urgency of the demonstration yesterday. There are a lot of cyclists; they need properly designed streets, and so do the pedestrians.

1bryan

thelad95 wrote: »

Hey, don’t you all think that too a certain extent bikers can be at fault too? I cycle to university every morning (about 20-30 minutes) with a luminous jacket, lights and a helmet on, the jacket and lights cost nothing as both were being given out free by the RSA at an event I was at and the helmet cost €25. Yet I see idiots in the dark, weaving in and out of traffic and attempting to overtake buses with their right indicator on who very likely can’t see them.

Also, why be a martyr to the cause and cycle in on a morning like this morning? I don’t buy that there’s ‘no other option’ of course there is and I certainly would rather arrive into university dry, relaxed and refreshed than soaked through and having had a few near death experiences due to incompetent/impatient drivers.

you cycle to university? You probably don't have to get kids ready in the morning, then deliver them to wherever they're going to be for the day. You also probably won't have very little time to get from wherever that is to wherever it is you work, a journey that you can do, say, 3 times faster on a bike, than on a bus. You also probably don't have to get from work to pick kids up in a timeframe that wouldn't be possible by bus.

But yeah, everyone who cycles is in the EXACT same situation you are. And dead right, they're idiots if they cycle.

Jawgap

1bryan wrote: »

Agree with this. In fact I think the strongest 2 data points you can correlate against are; 1) the volume of traffic, and 2) the number of gardai on duty.

Traffic looks like its trending back towards 1999/2000 levels (if not greater), and that won't abate any time soon. So, the one factor that is still within our controls is the numbers of gardai. The fact of the matter is, if people think they will get caught they won't take a risk. That extends to general driver behaviour, as well as things like having all working lights, etc on the car (anecdotally, from my cycle home yesterday about 1 in every 15 cars had at least one faulty light - in a 7 mile commute from town to home through built-up areas I saw zero gardai on duty).

Again, number of Gardai is largely irrelevant - personally, I'd prefer 100 Guards well motivated to enforce the existing safe passing laws rather than 1000 not that bothered about a minimum passing distance law.

......and if you really want road users to worry about being caught, I'd pressure the Guards to set up a system that would allow head and dashcam footage to be submitted for their consideration, and for it to be used as evidence, if it meets clear and relatively high standards.

1bryan

Jawgap wrote: »

Again, number of Gardai is largely irrelevant

I meant that comment in relation to road deaths in general and not specifically to cyclist fatalities. It is very definitely relevant to the former.

07Lapierre

tomasrojo wrote: »

I cycled my two kids to school today. It took about the same time as normal, rather than 2-3 times longer. I didn't have any near-death experiences. It was absolutely fine. If I'd followed your advice, they'd have been an hour late for school.

+1 I cycled this Morning too. The Malahide road was a car park this morning. Cycling was the obvious choice.

AndrewJRenko

1bryan wrote: »

you cycle to university? You probably don't have to get kids ready in the morning, then deliver them to wherever they're going to be for the day. You also probably won't have very little time to get from wherever that is to wherever it is you work, a journey that you can do, say, 3 times faster on a bike, than on a bus. You also probably don't have to get from work to pick kids up in a timeframe that wouldn't be possible by bus.

But yeah, everyone who cycles is in the EXACT same situation you are. And dead right, they're idiots if they cycle.

Why would you think kids and bikes are mutually exclusive?

07Lapierre

1bryan wrote: »

you cycle to university? You probably don't have to get kids ready in the morning, then deliver them to wherever they're going to be for the day. You also probably won't have very little time to get from wherever that is to wherever it is you work, a journey that you can do, say, 3 times faster on a bike, than on a bus. You also probably don't have to get from work to pick kids up in a timeframe that wouldn't be possible by bus.

Fair enough...Imagine how easy your commute would be if there were less cars on the road?

Pinch Flat

07Lapierre wrote: »

+1 I cycled this Morning too. The Malahide road was a car park this morning. Cycling was the obvious choice.

Yup same here. Dublin 15 was a car park, including the bus lanes. Fair play to anyone that got in a car - they must have spent hours in it. My usual commute - albeit a little wetter - took me just over 30 mins.

tomasrojo

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why would you think kids and bikes are mutually exclusive?

Was he not making the point that some people don't have the luxury of NOT cycling?

Weepsie

I cycled this morning. I was mostly dry. I got here safely, I went slower, took the lanes more often and gave more space to traffic I was around.
I got here very safely and only took me 5 mins longer maybe than it would have (I got a lot of luck with green lights admittedly that I'd normally be stuck at)

Now if only everyone would do this, there'd be no threads bemoaning the traffic. The number of cars is a problem, the relatively small number of cars who decide to block up the yellow box, take up the bus lane, gamble on red/amber is far worse and has enormous knock on for other traffic and grinds it to a standstill when it should just flow.

CramCycle

thelad95 wrote: »

Hey, don’t you all think that too a certain extent bikers can be at fault too? I cycle to university every morning (about 20-30 minutes) with a luminous jacket, lights and a helmet on, the jacket and lights cost nothing as both were being given out free by the RSA at an event I was at and the helmet cost €25. Yet I see idiots in the dark, weaving in and out of traffic and attempting to overtake buses with their right indicator on who very likely can’t see them.

I certainly believe cyclists can be at fault, I don't have specifics of every case but quite a few. In the details I have, just about half the fatalities over the past two years, only two had cyclists stick out as having no other person to attribute blame. One was returning from a decent stretch in a pub, with no lights, on a footpath, downhill and struck a bollard. The other, also returning from a night out (although no clear indication of intoxication), misjudged another vehicle, rear ended it and bumped the ground at relatively low speed. Alas it was awkward enough the the bump was fatal. In every other case, the majority of blame can be played at the feet of the other party. Mainly hit from behind, travelling at speeds in excess that conditions allow for, in daylight. Some were skimmed, some left hooked, all are no longer with us for reasons that no actions of their own would have prevented.

Also, why be a martyr to the cause and cycle in on a morning like this morning? I don’t buy that there’s ‘no other option’ of course there is and I certainly would rather arrive into university dry, relaxed and refreshed than soaked through and having had a few near death experiences due to incompetent/impatient drivers.

Silliness, only a martyr would have got in a car this morning. In Dublin CC commute times were increased at least 3 fold.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

They're not accidents. They are collisions or crashes. Please stop trying to let people off the hook for their actions.

Did any of the cyclist deaths in the past two years due to the behaviour of cyclists or the lack of helmets/hi-vis?

Lights in one as the cyclists may have seen the obstruction but in the others, no, typically daylight, good visiblity. In the majority, driving to the conditions would have stopped the majority of these tragedies occurring.

AndrewJRenko

CramCycle wrote: »

Lights in one as the cyclists may have seen the obstruction

Thanks, which one was this?

tomasrojo

Donna Fox's brother doesn't like the die-in concept at all.
https://twitter.com/Foxiewood/status/933208887339053056

1bryan

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why would you think kids and bikes are mutually exclusive?

what?

1bryan

tomasrojo wrote: »

Donna Fox's brother doesn't like the die-in concept at all.
https://twitter.com/Foxiewood/status/933208887339053056

it's a shame he doesn't say why.

07Lapierre

average_runner wrote: »

Yeah because drivers causes all the accidents!!


The cause of every accident should be published, because like the poster above, he/she believes it's always the drivers, while for fact we dont know.


We need to learn from these accidents and not hide from them

Definitely agree that we need to learn from these fatalities...BUT we already know a lot!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20728611/

"A fatal injury of a cyclist is more often driver's fault than cyclist's (598 vs. 370)"

tomasrojo

1bryan wrote: »

it's a shame he doesn't say why.

His sister was killed by a lorry. I should have made that clear.

I don't know anything beyond that.

1bryan

tomasrojo wrote: »

His sister was killed by a lorry. I should have made that clear.

I don't know anything beyond that.

it was the 'beyond that' I wondered about. I'd like to know what his objections are based on.

magicbastarder

i can understand why he could find it distasteful, people simulating to an extent a dead cyclist in the road, when his sister has been one.

1bryan

magicbastarder wrote: »

i can understand why he could find it distasteful, people simulating to an extent a dead cyclist in the road, when his sister has been one.

well, personally, I don't find it offensive.

CramCycle

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Thanks, which one was this?

Down in Cork, hit a bollard at night time with no lights on the way home. No one else was involved. If he had lights he may have seen the bollard. He was cycling on the pavement, with no lights, after dark on his way home from his local.

Interestingly the coroner attributed the incident to a lack of a helmet, and none of the other factors, even though most helmets are not designed for the type of fall that took place.

Seth Brundle

If it helps reduce road fatalities or even encourages improved road design then who cares what it's called or whether people were lying down, standing up or cycling at the protest?

Jawgap

kbannon wrote: »

If it helps reduce road fatalities or even encourages improved road design then who cares what it's called or whether people were lying down, standing up or cycling at the protest?

Point is - it likely won't. It might be well meaning, but it's just a good photo-op. The government may well respond by allocating more money to cycling infrastructure or road safety - but it will be a response in kind, a good sound-bite that attracts a modestly prominent headline.

It would, imo, be better if everyone who attended the event went and now lobbied, attended, represented at their local JPC, school parents' council and any other local forum - and pressured the Guards to enforce existing legislation.

Plus, while there is a need better street/road designs (not necessarily segregation) there is also a need for proactive and efficient maintenance and repair of what we've got - something simple, for example, would be cleaning streets and cycle lanes properly, and regularly - that means lobbying LAs to boost their street cleaning and maintenance budgets, they're not going to that in Galway because of a 'die in' in Dublin.

What really needs to happen, imo, is a change in our culture when it comes to road use, and that's only going to happen in a meaningful way if its driven or agitated for at much lower levels.

Pinch Flat

I think one form of protest would be for cyclists to jump in their cars and see what impact it has, I mean with 70,000 odd commuting by car into Dublin, another 10,000 cars won't have much of an impact, will it?

fat bloke

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I think one form of protest would be for cyclists to jump in their cars and see what impact it has, I mean with 70,000 odd commuting by car into Dublin, another 10,000 cars won't have much of an impact, will it?

Agree. I've always thought that a week of that would be a fantastic extended moment of clarity for motorists.

The "one less car" message for every cyclist you see. If all cyclists stopped cycling and further clogged up the roads and filled up the buses and luas's (Luais?). The problem is getting all cyclists to actually do it. There's no concerted group effort among cyclists. I thought the turnout for yesterday was poor given the no of cyclists there are and that it was a mild dry evening.

Jawgap

Pinch Flat wrote: »

I think one form of protest would be for cyclists to jump in their cars and see what impact it has, I mean with 70,000 odd commuting by car into Dublin, another 10,000 cars won't have much of an impact, will it?

I think the problem is that when cycling is at its max (the summer) the schools are out so vehicular traffic is at its lightest.

Personally, I'd go the other way......arrange monthly cycles for commuters to travel en-masse from outlying areas of the city to the city centre and encourage anyone who is considering cycling or who cycles infrequently to join in, offering them the protection of the 'herd' until their confidence builds - it's easy to ignore one cyclist, bit difficult to ignore several dozen. Plus it might generate a sense that there are more cyclists out there than is actually the case - and illustrate in a very visual way just how popular cycling is.