#StopKillingCyclists - Kildare Street Tuesday 21st 5.30

ED E

For those of you not following the relevant groups on social media a vigil/action has been arranged by the Dublin Cycling Campaign and IBike Dublin with others.

https://www.facebook.com/events/222836218255880/
&
https://www.facebook.com/events/523644131326411/

If you can get from the office to Kildare Street maybe consider joining in. This was a previous event outside the DoT.


Photo Credit: Sticky Bottle

Moflojo

It'd be great to see clubs and their members getting behind this type of action in a big way. Club & leisure cyclists have borne the brunt of the fatalities this year sadly. Some clubs have massive memberships and if those members could be mobilised this would become a genuine mass movement.

cunavalos

ED E wrote: »

For those of you not following the relevant groups on social media a vigil/action has been arranged by the Dublin Cycling Campaign and IBike Dublin with others.

https://www.facebook.com/events/222836218255880/
&
https://www.facebook.com/events/523644131326411/

If you can get from the office to Kildare Street maybe consider joining in. This was a previous event outside the DoT.


Photo Credit: Sticky Bottle

Looks like a demonstration in London to me,

nilhg

Moflojo wrote: »

It'd be great to see clubs and their members getting behind this type of action in a big way. Club & leisure cyclists have borne the brunt of the fatalities this year sadly. Some clubs have massive memberships and if those members could be mobilised this would become a genuine mass movement.

I'd like to support this but for anyone coming into the city, from Kildare in my case, it's not a particularly work/school friendly time, Iwe in our club have urged our members working close by to support it though.

fat bloke

The irony of wanting to bring my two girls in on their bikes to this but too nervous of their safety

triggermortis

I'd go but I'll be in work

Zynks

fat bloke wrote: »

The irony of wanting to bring my two girls in on their bikes to this but too nervous of their safety

I'm taking my 9 y.o. girl and 12 y.o. boy, but we'll be taking the Dart on the way back.

ED E

fat bloke wrote: »

The irony of wanting to bring my two girls in on their bikes to this but too nervous of their safety

You dont need to have the bike with you, just turn up with some cateyes in your pockets.

magicbastarder

or some hi-vis.

CramCycle

magicbastarder wrote: »

or some hi-vis.

TBF it is the only way anyone would know you were there :pac:

Mercian Pro

Moflojo wrote: »

It'd be great to see clubs and their members getting behind this type of action in a big way. Club & leisure cyclists have borne the brunt of the fatalities this year sadly. Some clubs have massive memberships and if those members could be mobilised this would become a genuine mass movement.

Looking back at the reports during the year, at least five of the fatalities were noted as "club cyclists" and some of those were on training spins when mown down. I fully agree that it would be great to see lots of club members there tomorrow as all of us have experience of close passes when out on club spins. It would also be great if Cycling Ireland supported the protest and leant its weight to the campaigns for a minimum passing distance, more enforcement of existing laws and more safe cycle infrastructure. Maybe I've missed it but I haven't heard anything from them about any of the fatalities or about the planned protest.

Lusk_Doyle

Some of the comments about this on the FB page for the event are just awful. How people can be full of such vile and vitriol about the lives of others simply because they do things differently to them is deeply saddening and a sorry indication of the lack of respect and humanity towards others.

Wishbone Ash

Mercian Pro wrote: »

.... It would also be great if Cycling Ireland supported the protest ...

..... but I haven't heard anything from them about any of the fatalities or about the planned protest.

I'm presuming that it wouldn't really be in their interest to highlight the negative aspects of an activity that they promote.

bilbot79

I think the law should favour cyclists enormously because they have no physical protection however cyclists are a terribly rulebreakin bunch too. Would the people at this protest also remonstrate cyclists that break red lights?

CardinalJ

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Some of the comments about this on the FB page for the event are just awful. How people can be full of such vile and vitriol about the lives of others simply because they do things differently to them is deeply saddening and a sorry indication of the lack of respect and humanity towards others.

I had to just stop trying to find reason where there is none. Some people are just jerks.

Lusk_Doyle

bilbot79 wrote: »

I think the law should favour cyclists enormously because they have no physical protection however cyclists are a terribly rulebreakin bunch too. Would the people at this protest also remonstrate cyclists that break red lights?

That's next week's vigil.

bilbot79

bilbot79 wrote: »

I think the law should favour cyclists enormously because they have no physical protection however cyclists are a terribly rulebreakin bunch too. Would the people at this protest also remonstrate cyclists that break red lights?

Did the lads that died in the last week break red lights? or any of the others in the ground this year

CramCycle

bilbot79 wrote: »

I think the law should favour cyclists enormously because they have no physical protection however cyclists are a terribly rulebreakin bunch too. Would the people at this protest also remonstrate cyclists that break red lights?

Justice should be blind and favour no one, this said, as has been pointed out many times on this forum, cyclists are no worse at rule breaking than any other group of people as they are just that, a bunch of people with nothing else in common. Bringing such comments up in a thread that is here to ask for people to point out the lack of respect afforded someone who has done nothing other than choose a different way to get to work.

I don't know every cyclist who has died this year on this small island, I know a few people who have had friends and loved ones taken from them though. These people had their lives changed in an unspeakable way. Their friends were visible, on their way home from work or just out for a bit of R&R. Some were wearing hi vis, some were using lights, all had helmets for all the good they done.

More importantly, all left behind friends and family who will never be the same, all left lives that will never be completed. None were running red lights when they were hit, none were shouting abuse, all that I know were hit in circumstances where if a driver was not trying to gain seconds, the world would have different headlines running and a few less nasty, uninformed comments on Facebook.

But **** it, let's make it about a few RLJing cyclist who George Hook rants about who have caused zero deaths this year, let's do that, because that is what we should be focusing on.

Sometimes I don't know why I ****ing bother coming online, it just drags you down that people cannot focus on the crux of an issue, they always have to look for some other pointless thing to tag on as if it ****ing matters at all.

People are dead because there seems to be either a lack of personal responsibility or a lack of enforcement, but no let's drag in a pet peeve, as if it makes a ****ing blind bit of difference.

Do I not care about these things, of course I do, every dick who jumps the queue, who plants the image I am somehow a bad person in other peoples minds, of course I do. I want to smack them with a fully grown tuna. Christ, some mornings I hate them as much as the person who thinks making that turn a few seconds early is more important than my life, thankfully, I realise in a split second that my view has been skewed. They don't kill people. Get some priorities, FFS.

bilbot79

CramCycle wrote: »

Justice should be blind and favour no one, this said, as has been pointed out many times on this forum, cyclists are no worse at rule breaking than any other group of people as they are just that, a bunch of people with nothing else in common. Bringing such comments up in a thread that is here to ask for people to point out the lack of respect afforded someone who has done nothing other than choose a different way to get to work.

I don't know every cyclist who has died this year on this small island, I know a few people who have had friends and loved ones taken from them though. These people had their lives changed in an unspeakable way. Their friends were visible, on their way home from work or just out for a bit of R&R. Some were wearing hi vis, some were using lights, all had helmets for all the good they done.

More importantly, all left behind friends and family who will never be the same, all left lives that will never be completed. None were running red lights when they were hit, none were shouting abuse, all that I know were hit in circumstances where if a driver was not trying to gain seconds, the world would have different headlines running and a few less nasty, uninformed comments on Facebook.

But **** it, let's make it about a few RLJing cyclist who George Hook rants about who have caused zero deaths this year, let's do that, because that is what we should be focusing on.

Sometimes I don't know why I ****ing bother coming online, it just drags you down that people cannot focus on the crux of an issue, they always have to look for some other pointless thing to tag on as if it ****ing matters at all.

People are dead because there seems to be either a lack of personal responsibility or a lack of enforcement, but no let's drag in a pet peeve, as if it makes a ****ing blind bit of difference.

Do I not care about these things, of course I do, every dick who jumps the queue, who plants the image I am somehow a bad person in other peoples minds, of course I do. I want to smack them with a fully grown tuna. Christ, some mornings I hate them as much as the person who thinks making that turn a few seconds early is more important than my life, thankfully, I realise in a split second that my view has been skewed. They don't kill people. Get some priorities, FFS.

I get it, I do.

I think motorists and cyclists hate and disrespect each other. Achieving change isn't always a one sided affair, I think there has to be trade offs. I think motorists would be more likely to obey a minimum passing distance if they felt cyclists were having the book thrown at them too. But look it, wrong thread to bring it up maybe, don't mean to touch a nerve

1bryan

bilbot79 wrote: »

I think the law should favour cyclists enormously because they have no physical protection however cyclists are a terribly rulebreakin bunch too. Would the people at this protest also remonstrate cyclists that break red lights?

wow, this is unbelievably insensitive and in bad taste. For shame.

1bryan

bilbot79 wrote: »

I think motorists and cyclists hate and disrespect each other.

yeah, especially given most cyclists are motorists too.

god, why am I even wasting my time with this troll.

amcalester

bilbot79 wrote: »

I think motorists would be more likely to obey a minimum passing distance if they felt cyclists were having the book thrown at them too.

Well cyclists are already having cars, trucks and buses flying in their general direction, a book would be a welcome reprieve.

panda100

It's not just deaths either. I work for an acquired brain injury organisation and , anecdotally at least, we have seen a significant increase in cyclists sustaining head injuries as a result of cycling accidents. In the vast majority of cases these, life long injuries, are sustained due to carelessness of drivers and the supporting infrastructure that facilitates cars above all else. Usually its the driver turning left or right suddenly without looking out for cyclists coming from behind, or motorists braking suddenly and abruptly on narrow roads and bicycles forced into the back of them.

I can't make the vigil as I live in Limerick but it's important to recognise the many cyclists who escaped with their lives, but are now living with signifcant disabilities as a result of the dangerous lack of cycling infrastructure in our country

bilbot79

Hi folks.

Sorry about my statement earlier. Fair point, wrong thread. Not trying to be a troll. I was trying to think bigger picture and how to get motorists and cyclists to respect each other leading to less accidents etc.

Didn't mean to offend

Macy0161

bilbot79 wrote: »

I get it, I do.

I think motorists and cyclists hate and disrespect each other. Achieving change isn't always a one sided affair, I think there has to be trade offs. I think motorists would be more likely to obey a minimum passing distance if they felt cyclists were having the book thrown at them too. But look it, wrong thread to bring it up maybe, don't mean to touch a nerve

When exactly are the motorists having the book thrown at them? Speeding is endemic on our roads, amber and red lights don't matter, double yellows and cycle lanes - park away, blocking pavements parking two or more wheels up (but apparently only cyclists illegally use the footpath - how do the cars get there without driving on the pavement?), one or more light out, driving with dlr's in the dark, learners driving unaccompanied, drink driving etc etc etc.

This motorists having the "book thrown at them" is as much a myth as the "tour de france wannabe's riding 5 a breast" bs that litter comment sections.

Pinch Flat

bilbot79 wrote: »

I think motorists and cyclists hate and disrespect each other. Achieving change isn't always a one sided affair, I think there has to be trade offs. I think motorists would be more likely to obey a minimum passing distance if they felt cyclists were having the book thrown at them too. But look it, wrong thread to bring it up maybe, don't mean to touch a nerve

Maybe, but it's motorists that have managed to kill 50% more cyclists this year than last year. I would find that a tad disrespectful in itself. Stop driving like lunatics. Slow down. Don't drink and drive. Put the phone away. Stop killing cyclists. It's that simple.

Chips Lovell

No fighting in the war room please.

seamus

bilbot79 wrote: »

I get it, I do.

I think motorists and cyclists hate and disrespect each other. Achieving change isn't always a one sided affair, I think there has to be trade offs. I think motorists would be more likely to obey a minimum passing distance if they felt cyclists were having the book thrown at them too. But look it, wrong thread to bring it up maybe, don't mean to touch a nerve

With all due respect, that's incredibly naive.

All road users break the law all the time. It's nothing to do with respect, it's all to do with selfishness. Drivers don't pass close because they think cyclists have no respect. They pass close because they're selfish dickheads.
Cyclists don't break reds because they disrespect motorists, they do it because they're selfish dickheads.

There's nothing else to it.

CramCycle

So who here is going in this evening. It is alas a time of day where it will get noticed but also unlikely to get a big crowd as people make the run for the creche etc.

mr spuckler

CramCycle wrote: »

So who here is going in this evening. It is alas a time of day where it will get noticed but also unlikely to get a big crowd as people make the run for the creche etc.

I am. I always talk about supporting these things but have never done so to date. I'm surprised (in a way) at how angry and emotional I've gotten this week about the deaths of people that I've never met.
I really hope it's well attended and that it's reported on in a meaningful way.

mr spuckler

bilbot79 wrote: »

I think motorists and cyclists hate and disrespect each other.

i don't hate or disrespect motorists.

anybody who hates another person or group of people who have literally never visited any wrong on them needs to have a good look at themselves.

Schrodingercat

I think the animosity between motorists and cyclists is hugely exaggerated. The extremists are the ones who are heard on the radio or post on twitter. The vast sensible majority of commuters don't bother tweeting or going on Radio.


I very rarely experience that "hate" on my daily commute.

I'll regularly have cars move out a bit If I am filtering on the inside in stopped traffic, or let me through at junctions. I've pushed cars off the road who have broken down so they aren't blocking other traffic.
The last time I knocked on a van window was to tell him his back door was open and his tools would fall out (the driver assumed I was going to give out to him).

The vast majority of interactions I have commuting around dublin (whether in a car or bike) are positive, and all the anger you hear in the media leads people to believe cycling is a lot more dangerous than it is.

More awareness of bikes will improve safety, and I think the best way to get that is more people on bikes. The more often you see a bike on the road the more you will check your mirrors and blind spots for bikes.


I'll be there tonight.

Rogue-Trooper

Going to try get down to this if I can get out of work on time. Have put the word out to my cycling colleagues too. Really hope they get a good turnout for it.

CramCycle

Schrodingercat wrote: »

I very rarely experience that "hate" on my daily commute.

Same here, I meet the one lunatic now and again, but i pass or am passed by hundreds of people daily, they are a small percentage.

I'll regularly have cars move out a bit If I am filtering on the inside in stopped traffic, or let me through at junctions. I've pushed cars off the road who have broken down so they aren't blocking other traffic.

Done this the other night, it was quite comical as I pushed the car in cleats. Even funnier was that the driver put a post up on facebook and my partner copped it solely on using my first name and "he was a cyclist", one of my three defining features, which is a bit sad.

The last time I knocked on a van window was to tell him his back door was open and his tools would fall out (the driver assumed I was going to give out to him).

Same last night, but I was telling me his light just blew. He was really defensive and started telling me he was in the right before he realised what I was saying and said thanks.

More awareness of bikes will improve safety, and I think the best way to get that is more people on bikes. The more often you see a bike on the road the more you will check your mirrors and blind spots for bikes

And that is the bottom line, I am not a cycling activist, in fact if everyone drove safely, I would be alot happier with less cyclists on the road, no point in lying but since this is not happening, it is more beneficial to me to have more cyclists on the road so that

Schrodingercat

CramCycle wrote: »

Done this the other night, it was quite comical as I pushed the car in cleats. Even funnier was that the driver put a post up on facebook and my partner copped it solely on using my first name and "he was a cyclist", one of my three defining features, which is a bit sad.

Its always easier to offer to push a car when you are on a bike rather than have to pull over and get out of your car. Its amazing when once you start pushing a load of other people appear and start helping. Nobody wants to be the first person to offer.

CramCycle wrote: »

And that is the bottom line, I am not a cycling activist, in fact if everyone drove safely, I would be alot happier with less cyclists on the road, no point in lying but since this is not happening, it is more beneficial to me to have more cyclists on the road so that

That cycle path along the canal is a nightmare to get anywhere fast when its busy. But I suppose thats not the point of it.


https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/nov/17/copenhagen-cycling-peak-bike
Cyclists often have to wait through two or three rounds of green lights before they can get past.

fat bloke

Gonna try and head in with my two young 'uns.

rob w

Ill be there!

doozerie

I won't be there as, ironically, I'll be driving my car at the time (with two bicycles loaded in the back, so I'm not going complete cold turkey).

I'm all in favour of events that show cyclists in numbers on the road, I really think it does raise awareness of our existence but more importantly I think/hope it highlights that we are just normal people, like everyone else. We just happen to be normal people who ride bikes.

I have reservations about the "#StopKillingCyclists" tag though. I appreciate that sometimes it feels like only a stark message will shake people out of their complacency and make them pay attention. But on the other hand I suspect that if you ask someone whether they are associated with, or a member of a group responsible for, the killing of cyclists then they'd say no. Which, of course, is part of the fundamental problem, everyone believes the problem is someone else and that therefore they don't need to change their own attitude or behaviour.

Ultimately an event like this has to appeal to all road users, make all of us reconsider our all-too-often casual attitude and behaviour on the roads, make us realise that a single rash choice that we make on the spur of the moment could have horrific consequences for those around us and perhaps ourselves too. I like to think of myself as a conscientious cyclist and motorist but, just like anyone else, a self-serving poor decision on my part to overtake in poor visibility, drive too quickly into a blind bend, "squeeze through" a red light, etc., etc. is all that separates me from motorists that have badly hurt or killed another road user, cyclist or otherwise. And there is always the temptation to make such stupid and dangerous decisions, we are all selfish humans at the end of the day. Recognising the danger that we'd pose in doing so is what makes most of us choose not to make such decisions, and it's this kind of reasoning I think we need to encourage in all road users.

Safety on the roads will increase as we all act with more thought and consideration. A tagline like "#StopKillingCyclists" risks causing (more) division rather than encouraging empathy, in my view, and I think it is a poor choice.

fat bloke

Well as long as cyclists go around "colliding" with all and sundry then motorists could be forgiven for shrugging off any blame. Sure isn't it only themselves they're killing, coming out of nowhere?

Anyway, I'm here, good and early. Between parking and pizza and ice cream for the kids, gonna cost me 60 quid . Still there's a nice Christmassy air about, and I haven't been in town for ages and ages.

tomasrojo

doozerie wrote: »

A tagline like "#StopKillingCyclists" risks causing (more) division rather than encouraging empathy, in my view, and I think it is a poor choice.

I did wonder whether it's addressed to the people who design streets, who I think to a certain extent are killing cyclists. At least, they're repeating designs that either cleanse streets of cyclists or put the cyclists who are willing to use them at risk (slip lanes on suburban roads, multi-lane roundabouts, arcing street corners that allow motorists to corner at high speed, narrow lanes that combine high-speed cars with bikes and so on).

I couldn't make it in to this, which I regret. But I also don't really like the title of it, and I don't like the use of a "die-in". I think this protest is modelled on recent protests in London, which themselves are modelled on protests from the 70s in the Netherlands. I guess you can argue they worked before, but I'm not 100% comfortable with them.

doozerie

fat bloke wrote: »

Well as long as cyclists go around "colliding" with all and sundry then motorists could be forgiven for shrugging off any blame. Sure isn't it only themselves they're killing, coming out of nowhere?

Behaviour on the roads by different groups has been a divisive issue for as long as I can remember, probably forever. I don't think attitudes, and therefore behaviour, will ever change as long as that divisiveness persists. And even a well-meaning approach can effectively end up feeding and reinforcing that animosity via nothing more than a slogan that could be perceived as accusatory.

There are some completely reckless arseholes on the roads (in cars, on bicycles, etc.) - they can't be reasoned with, only enforcement of the laws (which is sorely lacking) and associated punishments will have any chance of moderating their behaviour because arseholes will always behave like arseholes given a chance. But I believe them to be a tiny minority.

As far as I am concerned, when it comes to motorists, the greater danger is the majority of self-proclaimed "good drivers". These are the people who, like me and most of us, mostly try to behave responsibly. But their assessment of risk is skewed. They'll sometimes overtake a cyclist, giving them plenty of room (= considerate driver, by their assessment) by moving over the solid white line completely into the oncoming lane, and then get a fright when oncoming traffic emerges from the blind bend ahead before they've completed the overtake - they then wilfully ignore the fact that the dangerous situation was a direct consequence of their behaviour.

They'll also sometimes drive too closely to the cyclist (or motorist) in front of them in the self-serving expectation that "it'll be fine". They'll sometimes "squeeze through" that red traffic light because it hasn't been red for very long and therefore "it'll be fine". They'll sometimes overtake a cyclist too close so that they don't have to either wait behind for a few second, or inconvenience oncoming traffic by keeping out towards the centre line, and "it'll be fine". Etc, etc.

People make these decisions all the time, not because they are out to kill, but because they have given no thought to the risks they pose. They need to give thought to those risks, they need to understand that they are making themselves the source of the danger, that they are the villain in those situations. Once people acknowledge that to themselves I'm convinced their behaviour will improve, because with the rare exception no-one really wants to be the cause of death or serious injury of anyone else.

But admitting to yourself that you are the scourge takes effort, it's not going to happen easily. I believe we need to appeal to peoples' sense of social responsibility to get them to that point. Such people don't perceive themselves as killers of cyclists, they likely associate that label with that tiny minority of reckless drivers who care about nothing and no-one. And such people are not in that lunatic group, how could they be when they themselves only sometimes "bend the law" or whatever they like to call it when they switch off their consciences however momentarily.

I think that previous efforts which normalised cyclists are a big step in the right direction. Pointing out that cyclists are your sister/brother/mother/father/daughter/son/whatever, things like that can be enough to override that sense of cyclists being "other" and hopefully therefore override that sense that cyclists are not deserving of the same kind of consideration you'd show to people you associate yourself with. Labels all too often have the opposite effect, unfortunately, even with the best of intentions.

magicbastarder

what sort of turnout was there?
didn't make it in unfortunately.

doozerie

tomasrojo wrote: »

I did wonder whether it's addressed to the people who design streets, who I think to a certain extent are killing cyclists. At least, they're repeating designs that either cleanse streets of cyclists or put the cyclists who are willing to use them at risk (slip lanes on suburban roads, multi-lane roundabouts, arcing street corners that allow motorists to corner at high speed, narrow lanes that combine high-speed cars with bikes and so on).

I can certainly sympathise with that, I mumble some choice words about road designers all too often. And I do think that a more hardline approach towards those behind road design and traffic management is justified.

They get time to think about their design before it is implemented, they have access to informed guidance and opinion from other countries which have been doing this better since forever. As far as I am concerned they have absolutely no excuse for some of the appalling stuff they've put in place.

So if the label on today's protest was aimed at such people then I'd have no reservations about it at all. And perhaps it is aimed at them, but if so I think that hasn't been made clear enough.

ED E

magicbastarder wrote: »

what sort of turnout was there?
didn't make it in unfortunately.

At a guess 200

doozerie

Oh, and this event was discussed on Newstalk earlier (around 16h30 or so). Damian O'Tuama and Ciaran Cuffe represented themselves well, fair play to both of them!

Especially given the tone of some of the messages that were sent into the show - the usual stuff like "all cyclists are irresponsible, break lights, punch kittens, etc.", "cyclists MUST wear hi-viz, helmets, and lights (in that order)", "cyclists should have to pay insurance, and ROAD TAX!!!!!", blah blah. I didn't hear the rest as I stopped the car in the outer lane of the motorway to fetch a wheel wrench from the boot to batter the bleedin' car radio.

I should have known better than to start reading this thread. :rolleyes:


Well done to all that went in, I couldn't make it this time.

tomasrojo

Good turnout, I think:
https://twitter.com/PadraigRice/status/933031786682175489

There was coverage on the Six One news , looked a good turn out.

Chips Lovell

Reopening. Troll banned. In future folks, please report rather than respond.

Thanks

Lusk_Doyle

Why were they all lying down? Were they actively trying to get killed or what?

07Lapierre

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Why were they all lying down? Were they actively trying to get killed or what?

The cyclist code: if you’re not cycling, don’t stand if you can sit, don’t sit if you can lie down!