Luas Cross City Launch Discussion

XPS_Zero

What's the validity issue if you tag on at Brides Glen and don't tag off until Broombridge or Tallaght? Assuming you can get it done inside 90 min it's going to be fine (could you do either within 90 min?)

I assume your ticket is still valid but you may end up tagging ON at the end of the journey and costing yourself more money, and that's why they want you to tag off then on? Could they not just save people the hassle and extend the LEAP expiry time to 2 hours?

_Kaiser_

So as it happens I'll likely be in town Saturday anyway and it could be the perfect chance to test this as I'd be getting a Commuter train into Connolly/Tara St and could take the green line the rest of the way.

This sounds very confusing and complicated though, but help me be a guinea pig (and as someone who almost never uses public transport anymore let's see how easy it is/isn't) What's my best options?

All this tag on tag off nonsense. I gave up on it ages ago and just get a monthly ticket. Its a bit more expensive, but I only need to remember to renew my ticket once a month, rather than remembering to tag on, tag off every single day.

Twice I got a fine for forgetting to tag on. The inspector agreed I had tagged on/off everyday for 2 weeks previously and there was money on my leap card so there was no "motive" for not tagging on.

Peace of mind, by having a piece of paper in my wallet that makes me eligible for the journey is worth more than using the discounted fancy technology of Leap.

Chivito550

Just looked at the times of first and last trams for each stop from Broombridge to Dawson (It doesn’t give info for Stephens Green). Basically it will take 10 minutes to get from Broombridge to Dominick, and then 13 minutes to go from Dominick to Dawson. That’s just 1.4km. You could walk that in the same time. This is embarrassing.

marno21

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just looked at the times of first and last trams for each stop from Broombridge to Dawson (It doesn’t give info for Stephens Green). Basically it will take 10 minutes to get from Broombridge to Dominick, and then 13 minutes to go from Dominick to Dawson. That’s just 1.4km. You could walk that in the same time. This is embarrassing.

On the other hand, it won't be raining in the tram or you can do it as part of a journey

Still poor timing for that stretch. That's around 7km/h

cherryghost

Chivito550 wrote: »

Just looked at the times of first and last trams for each stop from Broombridge to Dawson (It doesn’t give info for Stephens Green). Basically it will take 10 minutes to get from Broombridge to Dominick, and then 13 minutes to go from Dominick to Dawson. That’s just 1.4km. You could walk that in the same time. This is embarrassing.

How was this calculated other than empty luas tram testing??

kmart6

transdev wrote:

Real Time Passenger Information systems are a key part of Luas services.

Have to laugh at this, there have been consistent problems with this for six months.

Victor

Updated and expanded.

devnull

Victor wrote: »

Updated and expanded.

Thanks - I've updated the first post with the latest version.

There's a few changes in it, but the biggest one appears to be fleshing out a little on how the LUAS Off-Peak fare is going to work which I'm going to reproduce here with the map rather than re-posting something huge.

New Luas Leap Card Off Peak City Centre Fare:
The National Transport Authority are introducing a Luas Cross City Introductory Luas Leap Card Off Peak fare. These fares are due to be available from 2pm Sat 9th Dec, the opening of Luas Cross City, for a period of 1 year. This fare costs €1.00 for an Adult or Student and €0.50 for a Child.



This fare applies to travel within the following area: Parnell in the North, St. Stephen's Green in the South, Jervis in the West and Busáras / Connolly / George's Dock in the East. This fare is available during Off Peak Hours.

Click here to see more about this Leap Card Off Peak City Centre Fare.

Luas Leap Card Peak / Off Peak Times:
Monday to Friday First Tram to 07:00 = Leap Card Off Peak
Monday to Friday 07:00 – 10:00 = Leap Card Peak
Monday to Friday 10:00 – 4:00 = Leap Card Off Peak
Monday to Friday 16:00pm – 19:00 = Leap Card Peak
Monday to Friday 19:00 – Last Tram = Leap Card Off Peak
Saturday All Day = Leap Card Off Peak
Sunday & Bank Holiday All Day = Leap Card Off Peak

xper

Who the **** wrote that article? There is an art to communicating information succinctly to a general audience and the author of that diatribe does not understand it. The zone map is a dog's dinner too.

devnull wrote: »

a Luas Cross City Introductory Luas Leap Card Off Peak fare

Jesus, the clue is when you have the same word twice in the name, you've probably f***ed up. Will they just put LCCILLCOP on the button on the ticket machine?

I suppose Dublin Bus claim exclusive rights on "City Centre Zone" and value it at several million.

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The Brides Glen to Broombridge change at Parnell...what's the reason for this? I realize changes to swap different lines are the norm on subways and trams all over the world but changes on the same line? Why?

Cost efficiency. For a given number of vehicles/departures, it allows capacity and frequency to be maximised on the busier central section between Parnell and Sandyford.

This is fairly common practice in other cities where there are multiple established tram routes running out to various points in the suburbs but sharing the same tracks, often arranged in a loop, in the city centre.

And pretty much every city bus network does it extensively if you think about it.

They could split the two services by name, e.g., Bride's Glen <-> Parnell as the Green line and Sandyford <-> Broombridge as the Blue Line but that is slightly casting the operation in stone and given such a large overlap, maybe didn't make sense in this case.

Edit: And you wouldn't change at Parnell, you'd change at any stop between Sandyford and O'Connell Street Upper so you don't have to walk anywhere.

mystic86

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The Brides Glen to Broombridge change at Parnell...what's the reason for this?

it's actually a change at the stop before it - Upper O'Connell Street (The Gresham stop)

cronos

It's disgraseful that they said it would be 21 minutes and are now saying it's 27. That's about a 30% time increase. How did they get it that far wrong? That's a disaster, they need to take a look at speeding this up between stops.

loyatemu

xper wrote: »

The zone map is a dog's dinner too.

the map is awful - at the very least it should show the interchange stops, on the map they appear miles apart. The zones are a mess too, Red 1&2 only have 3 stops in them - I realise this is not new it just looks worse on the new map. Do people care about the zones? You buy your ticket to a particular stop and the machine figures it out for you, or the Leap card does.

Victor

cronos wrote: »

It's disgraseful that they said it would be 21 minutes and are now saying it's 27. That's about a 30% time increase. How did they get it that far wrong? That's a disaster, they need to take a look at speeding this up between stops.

It's a matter of expectation management.

cronos

Victor wrote: »

It's a matter of expectation management.

It's a matter of not lying.

DMcL1971

The reason that they recommend that you tag off and back on again when changing between lines is related to the automatic tagging off after 90 minutes feature of the Leap card.

If you tag on at Brides Glen, travel to town, leave the tram without tagging off, get on the Red Line and continue out towards Tallaght, the journey can take more than 90 minutes. So at some point on the way out to Tallaght (90 minutes after you left Brides Glen) your card will automatically tag off. If you then try to tag off at the end of your journey in Tallaght, you will actually find yourself tagging back on. Also, if an inspector were to get on somewhere between this 90 minute tag off point and your arrival in Tallaght you would be fined.

Of course you don't actually have to tag off the Green Line in town and then back on again on the Red Line as your card is still tagged on for 90 minutes and valid for 8 zones of travel. But after 90 minutes you could be in trouble. So if you were going from Brides Glen to Heuston or Connolly you'd be fine but all the way out to Tallaght or Saggart would be a problem.

The ability to travel on both lines for one price is actually part of the Leap 90 Discount. If within 90 minutes of tagging on the Luas you were to take a bus you would get a one Euro discount on your bus fare. Even though you tagged off when leaving the Luas. If within 90 minutes of tagging on one Luas line you were to take a different Luas line it is counted as part of the same journey. Even though you tagged off when leaving the first Luas. (Doesn't apply getting off the Luas and back on the same line within 90 minutes)


When you get on at Brides Glen you will be charged 2.35 which allows you to travel for 8 zones. When you tag off in the city centre (5 zones later) you will be refunded zero. But if you tag back on to the Red Line withn 90 minutes of the initial tag on at Brides Glen, you can continue your journey for another 3 zones all the way to the end of the Red Line. When you tag back on the Red Line the 90 minutes timeout resets, meaning your card won't tag off before you get to Tallaght. When tagging on in the city centre you will be charged 2.13 for travel to the end of the Red Line but this will be refunded wherever you tag off the Red Line.

This means you could go from Brides Glen into town and do some shopping and as long as you make it to the Red Line within 90 minutes of leaving Brides Glen your journey to Tallaght won't cost you anymore.

Tow

cronos wrote: »

It's disgraseful that they said it would be 21 minutes and are now saying it's 27. That's about a 30% time increase. How did they get it that far wrong? That's a disaster, they need to take a look at speeding this up between stops.

They have to factor in unexpected delays when traveling on roads. Such as encounters with O'Connell Street's resident walking dead. As seen in this video of the journey: https://youtu.be/N_aQegLf6R4?t=10m9s

Chivito550

Victor wrote: »

It's a matter of expectation management.

Wow. So it’s a case of aim so low that nobody can be disappointed. Are we really that unambitious in this country?

17 minutes from Stephens Green to Dominick is so bad that I’d almost go so far to say it wasn’t worth the investment.

XPS_Zero

Just to note: contrary to what seems to be the popular belief, you cannot legally be fined if your 90 minutes have expired, it's not fiscally logical to let it happen but you can't get in trouble because you've tagged on and have a valid ticket (ie you've paid a fare, and made no attempt to evade the fare - therefore you cannot be committing an offense) in fact you'll be paying MORE than the regular fare because when you try to tag off you'll be paying a bigger price.

I suppose interchanging to tag off green and tag on to red, the best policy may be to just let the LEAP card figure it out for you. I recall there were places in the US and Uk subways where you had to cross a machine and tag off/on changing lines and some where you did not, I would have found it confusing but I just followed what the local transport app told me to do.

dixiefly

Chivito550 wrote: »

Wow. So it’s a case of aim so low that nobody can be disappointed. Are we really that unambitious in this country?

17 minutes from Stephens Green to Dominick is so bad that I’d almost go so far to say it wasn’t worth the investment.

I agree and 27 minutes estimate from SG to Broombridge could well be the minimum time, I would have hoped for20 / 22 minutes for that.

Hard to see it being much of an improvement for M3 commuters over current.

Chivito550

Chivito550 wrote: »

17 minutes from Stephens Green to Dominick is so bad that I’d almost go so far to say it wasn’t worth the investment.

Ive just walked from Charlemont to Sir John Rogersons Quay. It took me 25 minutes. I'm wet almost to my knees. As I type this I can look across and see the Mayor Square Luas stop about a 6 minute walk away. For days like this, I'd say it was worth the investment although, connecting the two lines in the first place would have been better.

On the travel time, I'd expect that to come down a bit once the service is up and running. Ive noticed the travel time from SSG to Brides Glen has decreased a bit since I started using it about 4 years ago. That said, the twists and turns are what kill tram speeds. Two 90 degree turns one after the other from O'Connell Street to Parnell to Dominic Street I reckon is the cause of a lot of lost time.

trellheim

Remember the tram will be sharing with the bus at several points along its run on BXD and MUST wait for a complete sequence at OCS/Abbey St , this will have considerable impact on timing.

devnull

Deleted User wrote: »

Ive just walked from Charlemont to Sir John Rogersons Quay. It took me 25 minutes. I'm wet almost to my knees. As I type this I can look across and see the Mayor Square Luas stop about a 6 minute walk away. For days like this, I'd say it was worth the investment although, connecting the two lines in the first place would have been better.

Thing about that is you'd be far better off cycling it than either LUAS or walking literally get a bike from Charlemont LUAS station and return it to a stop close to the quays since it's essentially cycling in one straight line and not only that but in the morning it's all downhill as well with dedicated cycle lanes for most of it.

There's no way the LUAS will beat this after extension, staying on for an extra couple of stops to Stephens Green and then going to the quays by bike is slower as it is now than getting off at Charlemont and then cycling, not to mention cheaper because it's one less zone.

devnull

devnull wrote: »

Thing about that is you'd be far better off cycling it than either LUAS or walking literally get a bike from Charlemont LUAS station and return it to a stop close to the quays since it's essentially cycling in one straight line and not only that but in the morning it's all downhill as well with dedicated cycle lanes for most of it.

There's no way the LUAS will beat this after extension, staying on for an extra couple of stops to Stephens Green and then going to the quays by bike is slower as it is now than getting off at Charlemont and then cycling, not to mention cheaper because it's one less zone.

Well im not getting a bike. End of story. You couldn't pay me to cycle in Dublin.

Cant wait for the extension to open. Even if it takes the same length of time to get to work as it does now, I'll be getting here dry.

cronos

Tow wrote: »

They have to factor in unexpected delays when traveling on roads. Such as encounters with O'Connell Street's resident walking dead. As seen in this video of the journey: https://youtu.be/N_aQegLf6R4?t=10m9s

They should have factored that in the estimates they were publishing initially then. It's not a new or unpredictable phenomenon.

devnull

Deleted User wrote: »

Well im not getting a bike. End of story. You couldn't pay me to cycle in Dublin.

Considering almost all of the way is on a dedicated cycle lane segregated from traffic and adjacent to the pavement from Charlemont LUAS stop to Grand Canal Street, it's really not that dangerous at all. I used Dublin Bikes and it allowed me to save over 30 minutes every day.

devnull

devnull wrote: »

Considering almost all of the way is on a dedicated cycle lane segregated from traffic and adjacent to the pavement from Charlemont LUAS stop to Grand Canal Street, it's really not that dangerous at all. I used Dublin Bikes and it allowed me to save over 30 minutes every day.

I find it a bit ironic that you are extolling the virtues of cycling in Dublin, in a thread about the Luas no less, when just yesterday there was a protest going on in front of Leinster House by about 200 cyclists demanding more is done to improve the safety of cyclists in the city. 14 cyclists have died this year alone. Two years ago a friend of mine was on her bike and collided with a car. Shes been wheelchair bound since and will be for the rest of her life.

I know you mean well by suggesting it, but the Amazon will freeze over before I cycle in Dublin.

Chivito550

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I find it a bit ironic that you are extolling the virtues of cycling in Dublin, in a thread about the Luas no less, when just yesterday there was a protest going on in front of Leinster House by about 200 cyclists demanding more is done to improve the safety of cyclists in the city. 14 cyclists have died this year alone. Two years ago a friend of mine was on her bike and collided with a car. Shes been wheelchair bound since and will be for the rest of her life.

I know you mean well by suggesting it, but the Amazon will freeze over before I cycle in Dublin.

Agreed. If I lived in Amsterdam or Copenhagen I would cycle. In Dublin I refuse to. That will not change unless we turn our city’s cycling network into something resembling those, no matter how much people here or in real life suggest it.

devnull

Deleted User wrote: »

I find it a bit ironic that you are extolling the virtues of cycling in Dublin, in a thread about the Luas no less, when just yesterday there was a protest going on in front of Leinster House by about 200 cyclists demanding more is done to improve the safety of cyclists in the city. 14 cyclists have died this year alone.

Two years ago a friend of mine was on her bike and collided with a car. Shes been wheelchair bound since and will be for the rest of her life.

I'm sorry to hear about your friend but the route I was talking about from Charlemont to Grand Canal Street is completely segregated from traffic, there is a kerb between the cycle lane and the traffic and the first part of it isn't alongside a road at all, so the chances of having a collision with a car is no more than that of being a pedestrian who is walking along the path.

The only time you'd encounter traffic would be in front of Accenture/BT and crossing Pearse Street, all the rest is quiet and side-roads that are really quiet and the busy roads you'd generally be crossing over rather than cycling alongside the flow of the traffic.

I appreciate the cycling is not for everyone, just simply illustrating a way to save a lot of time and also some money. There certainly are issues for cyclists who are cycling in Dublin on some roads, but from doing Charlemont to the Quays for over two years, I've never seen anything bad or dangerous like the parts of the city the cyclists are protesting about.

XPS_Zero

Stopping for traffic lights, sharp turns slowing it down, sharing with busses that IN THIS DAY IN AGE still are not cashless where people will only open their wallets only when they get onto the bus and get to the driver, THEN start going through their purse after asking how much it is...shows why underground (cut and cover AT LEAST) should have been the way to go in the CC, could have eventually had (as was proposed) a Luas/Bus Eireann/Metro hub over and underground thik of what we have at Connoly station only below ground and with a metro option added.

It will save people the walk though, and coming up to christmas that's good.

I hope they upgrade the latter end of Green line to metro and finish B2 to Bray and build the Luas F line to Lucan, they are the next obvious steps and would be a great stimulus package. We might have to wait for a replacement govt as this one seems determined to do the least amount of new things possible, but it should be done. I can't wait to try out the new line.