Luas Cross City Launch Discussion

devnull

Transdev have now released full info on the launch, including fare and zone infoirmation, frequency operating hours and journey times info.

https://www.luas.ie/luascrosscity-opening-9dec17/

Luas Cross City opening 2pm Sat 9th Dec

At 2pm on Saturday 9th December 2017 passenger services will start on Luas Cross City; the extension of the Green Line through the City Centre to Broombridge.

The Luas Cross City construction project started in June 2013 and has delivered 5.9km of track with 13 new Luas stops taking Luas through the city centre and north to Broombridge. The Luas Cross City line will now become part of the Luas Green Line when passenger services start at 2pm Sat 9th Dec.



Luas Fares
Luas fares are zonal; you pay for the zone you enter after you pass a border stop.

Most of the Luas zones are not changing. When passenger services start on Luas Cross City, the northern border of the current Luas Central Zone will move to Broadstone – DIT stop and there will be one new zone in the north of the city from Broadstone – DIT to Broombridge. There will be no changes to the other Luas zones.

Click here for a list of Luas fares valid from Fri 1st Dec 2017

If you are using Leap Card there is no change to the way you Touch On / Off your Leap Card on Luas. You will continue to Touch On before you get on the tram and Touch Off after you get off the tram. If you are using both lines our best advice is to Touch On and Off for the 1st tram trip and then after you change lines Touch On and Off for the 2nd tram trip. By Touching On/Off for each tram trip you will get the best value fare for your overall journey, you will have a valid ticket and you will have the flexibility to change your mind about the 2nd part of your journey.

New Line & Stops Operating Pattern:
Trams travelling north on the Green Line will no longer terminate at St. Stephen’s Green. They will continue through the city centre to O’Connell Upper and then either back southbound via Parnell stop or continue northbound to Broombridge via Dominick stop.

In the city centre there will be the first single track loop on the Luas system. Tracks will split after Dawson stop at College Green. The single track going north will go along Westmoreland Street, across O’Connell Bridge and along O’Connell Street. On Parnell Street the tracks will join up again to head north via Dominick stop to Broombridge. Also on Parnell street a single track will turn east onto Parnell Street and head south from Parnell stop on Marlborough Street, across Rosie Hackett Bridge, along Hawkins Street and College Street. At College Green, the tracks will join up again.

Both sides of the city centre loop are within an easy 2 min walk of each other so it is easy to get to the track and stop with trams going in the direction you want. Remember use Westmoreland, O’Connell – GPO and O’Connell Upper to go north and use Parnell, Marlborough and Trinity to go south.

Check out this video map from Transport for Ireland here.

New Red & Green Line Interchange:
The new line will also provide an interchange with the Red Line at O’Connell – GPO / Abbey Street / Marlborough stops.

Travelling north on the Green Line get off the tram at O’Connell - GPO stop, walk 2 mins (140m) to Abbey Street stop and board a Red Line tram westbound to Saggart or Tallaght or eastbound to Connolly or The Point.

Travelling south on the Green Line get off the tram at Marlborough stop, walk 1 min (100m) to Abbey Street stop and board a Red Line tram westbound to Saggart or Tallaght or eastbound to Connolly or The Point.

Travelling on the Red Line get off the tram at Abbey Street stop. To travel north walk 2 mins (140m) to O’Connell - GPO stop and board a Green Line tram northbound to Parnell or Broombridge. To travel south walk 1 min to Marlborough stop and board a Green Line tram southbound to Sandyford or Brides Glen.

New Stops Journey Times:
It will take approximately 27 mins to get from St. Stephen’s Green stop to Broombridge stop or from Broombridge stop to St. Stephen’s Green stop. Luas journey times vary depending on now busy the city and the system is. More or less traffic at junctions and passengers getting on and off mean travel time will vary throughout the day as it does on current services.

New Stops Operating Hours:
The new Luas stops will have the same long operating hours as the rest of the Luas network. Exact operating hours vary by stop and direction of service.

Click here to look at a PDF of Southbound and Northbound operating hours for the new stops.

New Stops Frequency & Live Info:
Luas does not operate on a Timetable but on a Frequency basis i.e. one tram leaves the terminus X mins after the previous tram to give a consistent frequency of service. This frequency varies throughout the day; shortest at peak times and longer at off peak times.

Real Time Passenger Information systems are a key part of Luas services. These systems have being installed however there are no passenger services running on the lines now so there is no Real Time Passenger Information for the new stops now. These systems and will be working at all the new stops and online from the start of passenger services on Luas Cross City.

Click here to find out more about Luas Real Time Passenger Information.

New Luas Leap Card Off Peak City Centre Fare:
The National Transport Authority are introducing a Luas Cross City Introductory Luas Leap Card Off Peak fare. These fares are due to be available from 2pm Sat 9th Dec, the opening of Luas Cross City, for a period of 1 year. This fare costs €1.00 for an Adult or Student and €0.50 for a Child.



This fare applies to travel within the following area: Parnell in the North, St. Stephen's Green in the South, Jervis in the West and Busáras / Connolly / George's Dock in the East. This fare is available during Off Peak Hours.

Click here to see more about this Leap Card Off Peak City Centre Fare.

Luas Leap Card Peak / Off Peak Times:
Monday to Friday First Tram to 07:00 = Leap Card Off Peak
Monday to Friday 07:00 – 10:00 = Leap Card Peak
Monday to Friday 10:00 – 4:00 = Leap Card Off Peak
Monday to Friday 16:00pm – 19:00 = Leap Card Peak
Monday to Friday 19:00 – Last Tram = Leap Card Off Peak
Saturday All Day = Leap Card Off Peak
Sunday & Bank Holiday All Day = Leap Card Off Peak

L1011

I think they mean will no longer terminate - they're still going to stop at SSG surely?

strandroad

L1011 wrote: »

I think they mean will no longer terminate - they're still going to stop at SSG surely?

That's my guess too.

27 minutes SSG to Broombridge though! So slow.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

I think they mean will no longer terminate - they're still going to stop at SSG surely?

It's very poorly worded so it's not clear if they mean the tram won't terminate there or the tram won't stop.

I'd be certain it's the former, but the way they wrote it is ambiguous.

AlekSmart

devnull wrote: »

It's very poorly worded so it's not clear if they mean the tram won't terminate there or the tram won't stop.

I'd be certain it's the former, but the way they wrote it is ambiguous.

The ambiguity is strange.

I am assuming that it will the norm for a Luas passenger to board a Green Line Tram at Brides Glen,and remain on that tram until Broombridge ?

The Publiciity refers to Tram Departure Times to and from the NEW stops,but fall short of total times end-to-end.

I suppose that with such a significant amount of compromise being relied upon in the City Centre zone,there is a significant element of the unknown remaining as to what will actually happen once the line goes Public.

Fingers Crossed ?

GerardKeating

AlekSmart wrote: »

I am assuming that it will the norm for a Luas passenger to board a Green Line Tram at Brides Glen,and remain on that tram until Broombridge ?

No,

The service pattern will be

• Brides Glen to Parnell
• Sandyford to Broombridge

So if you want to do Brides Glen to Broombridge, a change is required

tabbey

AlekSmart wrote: »

I suppose that with such a significant amount of compromise being relied upon in the City Centre zone,there is a significant element of the unknown remaining as to what will actually happen once the line goes Public.

A person planning to take a train towards Maynooth or M3, will be unable to depend on getting to Broombridge to make a connection.
Therefore a lot of people will head for Tara Street etc and get the train directly.

nilescraneo

Very complicated, very slow, very Irish. Will stick to hoofing it I think.

ArmaniJeanss

"If you are using Leap Card there is no change to the way you Touch On / Off your Leap Card on Luas. You will continue to Touch On before you get on the tram and Touch Off after you get off the tram. If you are using both lines our best advice is to Touch On and Off for the 1st tram trip and then after you change lines Touch On and Off for the 2nd tram trip. By Touching On/Off for each tram trip you will get the best value fare for your overall journey, you will have a valid ticket and you will have the flexibility to change your mind about the 2nd part of your journey."

That's a bit strange, imo it's not really an interchange station if you have to 'leave' the system after exiting the first tram.
Are tram systems in other cities like that? Maybe I'm just familiar with subway systems where you wouldn't have to tag off.

Chris_5339762

Lots of cities have no tag-off from trams (flat fare) so you don't have to wait at the final stop for the unprepared people to get their Leap Cards out.

KD345

The wording of this article so confusing and complicated.

Trams travelling north on the Green Line will no longer stop at St. Stephen’s Green.

As already mentioned, surely this should say trams will no longer 'terminate' at Stephen's Green? This is just confusing for existing passengers.

It will take approximately 27 mins to get from St. Stephen’s Green stop to Broombridge stop or from Broombridge stop to St. Stephen’s Green stop.

All previous articles and publications listed a travel time of 21 minutes between Stephen's Green and Broombridge. Now this has increased to 27 minutes - that's a massive increase in journey time. What is the reason for this? 27 minutes is roughly the same time as a bus (the 120 takes 28 minutes to get from Broombridge station to Merrion Square at peak times) considering the amount of priority given to LUAS and it's off road routing this should be quicker?

If you are using both lines our best advice is to Touch On and Off for the 1st tram trip and then after you change lines Touch On and Off for the 2nd tram trip. By Touching On/Off for each tram trip you will get the best value fare for your overall journey, you will have a valid ticket and you will have the flexibility to change your mind about the 2nd part of your journey.

Why do passengers need to tag on and off to transfer lines? For example, someone traveling from Dundrum to Smithfield needs to tag on at Dundrum, tag off at GPO, tag on and Abbey Street and tag off at Smithfield. How is this best value and what do they mean about the flexibility to change your mind about the second part of your journey?

Luas does not operate on a Timetable but on a Frequency basis

This is incorrect, when using the journey planner it displays a timetable for both LUAS lines. The timetables are actually active now for the new cross city line. I'm not sure why they would make this statement, as there are times of 20 minute gaps between trams, so having a timetable is helpful to passengers.

yer man!

This is slightly confusing, so if I'm going from museum to Harcourt, I will be charged two separate tram fares despite me never leaving the central zone, that's kinda crap.

XPS_Zero

As to speed...lets face it: as soon as the decision was made back in the day by Mary O'Rourke (who I'm otherwise a fan of) to put it overground in the CC ( a decision that has always baffled me at a time when we were flushed with cash and didn't even have the pathetic excuse of a recession Pascal used since he does not understand the word "investment"), and as soon as they decided not to connect the lines right away the Luas through the CC was always going to be agonizingly slow, and that's how it is, you could out pace it with a brisk power walk in the CC.  This was a painfully stupid decision IMO.

As to tag on and off between lines...I don't get that either, if I wanna tag on at Sandyford and tag off at Tallaght I can, now my card may expire if it's too slow a journey but I can do that...so why is this different? How do you get a discount by doing this?  You can get a paper ticket between the two that won't cost you anymore than going to the end of the Green line so this strikes me as strange.
The Brides Glen to Broombridge change at Parnell...what's the reason for this? I realize changes to swap different lines are the norm on subways and trams all over the world but changes on the same line? Why?
That "stops at SG" is very poorly worded they need to change that, I'd normally grasp things like this and I immediately thought "hold on what? They're not using SG station anymore? why?".  Though they could move that barrier back to stop the usual rush hours crush.
I don't wanna do the usual Irish thing where we find fault in everything and moan moan moan, it looks very well now that the works almost done but the only real benefit to this for those crossing to red is to save them the walk from SG, it certainly won't save you much time as it crawls through town and stops for traffic lights.  It's a big benefit to people on the new section of the line though.

strandroad

KD345 wrote: »

Why do passengers need to tag on and off to transfer lines? For example, someone traveling from Dundrum to Smithfield needs to tag on at Dundrum, tag off at GPO, tag on and Abbey Street and tag off at Smithfield. How is this best value and what do they mean about the flexibility to change your mind about the second part of your journey?

By flexibility they mean that if you change your mind between GPO and Abbey St you're already tagged off and can simply walk away (otherwise you'd have to find a Luas stop to tag off at).

server down

I read that as saying the preferred procedure is to tag off between lines but you don’t have to.

Stephen15

server down wrote: »

I read that as saying the preferred procedure is to tag off between lines but you don’t have to.

Not very intergrated if thats the case. Imagine if on the LU changing lines and you have to walk through the barriers twice in order to change trains.

Bray Head

XPS_Zero wrote: »

As to speed...lets face it: as soon as the decision was made back in the day by Mary O'Rourke (who I'm otherwise a fan of) to put it overground in the CC ( a decision that has always baffled me at a time when we were flushed with cash and didn't even have the pathetic excuse of a recession Pascal used since he does not understand the word "investment"), 

The final decision on Luas green line direction was taken in 1999 or 2000.

Back then GNI per capita in Ireland was still a good third lower than it is now and high unemployment was a very recent memory. The really relevant decision was taken in 2011 to postpone the shovel-ready Metro North (and preserve welfare and pension payments) and build the less costly Luas Cross City.

As for the running time I am not surprised, I was always sceptical of claims of 21 or 22 minutes. It very much remains to be seen whether Luas Cross City will beat a brisk walk from SSG to the GPO.

strandroad

Bray Head wrote: »

As for the running time I am not surprised, I was always sceptical of claims of 21 or 22 minutes. It very much remains to be seen whether Luas Cross City will beat a brisk walk from SSG to the GPO.

With the twists and turns I very much doubt it will! But hopefully it will demonstrate that underground is the only fast option for historical cities.

XPS_Zero

Bray Head wrote: »

XPS_Zero wrote: »

As to speed...lets face it: as soon as the decision was made back in the day by Mary O'Rourke (who I'm otherwise a fan of) to put it overground in the CC ( a decision that has always baffled me at a time when we were flushed with cash and didn't even have the pathetic excuse of a recession Pascal used since he does not understand the word "investment"), 

The final decision on Luas green line direction was taken in 1999 or 2000.

Back then GNI per capita in Ireland was still a good third lower than it is now and high unemployment was a very recent memory. The really relevant decision was taken in 2011 to postpone the shovel-ready Metro North (and preserve welfare and pension payments) and build the less costly Luas Cross City.

As for the running time I am not surprised, I was always sceptical of claims of 21 or 22 minutes. It very much remains to be seen whether Luas Cross City will beat a brisk walk from SSG to the GPO.

I do remember at the time (even though I was a kid) that that govt, well meaning as they were with infrastructure, afterall whatever their (massive) failure in the area of bank regulation their NDPs transformed the country and transport in particular, were facing a lot of moaning and whinging every time they tried to build something, then when they didn't.
First there was moaning "why wasn't the m50 built in the early 90s" and the answer was "because we'd have been laughed out of the room for wasting money" as the economy was in the crapper.  Then there was moaning about the port tunnel "it will be a white elephant", "my house is going to fall into it", "theres earthquakes under my house", "these endangered snails will be killed".  So I can see how they caved to pressure, but they did cave, and it was a bad decision.

cgcsb

The charging people twice for one journey thing is just a devastating embarrassment. All the work put into finally connecting the lines and then we revert to the old double-Irish. It's bad enough we get financially penalised for changing buses in this country.

Ben D Bus

cgcsb wrote: »

The charging people twice for one journey thing is just a devastating embarrassment. All the work put into finally connecting the lines and then we revert to the old double-Irish. It's bad enough we get financially penalised for changing buses in this country.

I don't think there will actually be a double charge.

Touching On/Off for each tram trip you will get the best value fare for your overall journey

However the logistics will be a bother around Abbey/GPO/Marlborough with more people than necessary having to tag on/off. Seems like nonsense.

AlekSmart

Ben D Bus wrote: »

I don't think there will actually be a double charge.

However the logistics will be a bother around Abbey/GPO/Marlborough with more people than necessary having to tag on/off. Seems like nonsense.

There is also something odd about the wording of the Press Release...

If you are using Leap Card there is no change to the way you Touch On / Off your Leap Card on Luas. You will continue to Touch On before you get on the tram and Touch Off after you get off the tram. If you are using both lines our best advice is to Touch On and Off for the 1st tram trip and then after you change lines Touch On and Off for the 2nd tram trip. By Touching On/Off for each tram trip you will get the best value fare for your overall journey, you will have a valid ticket and you will have the flexibility to change your mind about the 2nd part of your journey.

Our BEST advice ?

This is all beginning to appear like a journey on the Omsk-Tomsk Railway...How complex can (or should) it be to devise and implement a Fare/Ticket arrangement for this line ?

It's also of note that the €1 City-Centre fare is for the first 12 months only.

Perhaps it's just first-night nerves,but something appears a wee bit "off" here ?

server down

There’s no double charge. Luas is zoned. The best advice is just that. It’s advice, nothing is forced.

Infini

Luas is a point to point system one card per person like Irish Rail. If changing trams in the city there should be 0 need to tag off or on until you reach your destination. Could be just inaccurate infor or something unique about Luas but it needs clarification.

markpb

Infini wrote: »

Luas is a point to point system one card per person like Irish Rail. If changing trams in the city there should be 0 need to tag off or on until you reach your destination. Could be just inaccurate infor or something unique about Luas but it needs clarification.

I wonder if they're afraid of too many people dropping in for a coffee and shopping in the city centre and then finding out that their tag off at the other end was too late and was treated as a tag on?

Cookie_Monster

server down wrote: »

There’s no double charge. Luas is zoned. The best advice is just that. It’s advice, nothing is forced.

But now that the two lines are joined, why the need for the large number of zones and retaining red and green? There should be one set of zones (like everywhere else), with (central) Red 1 and 2 and Green 1 and 2 becoming simply Zone 1, the 3s becoming a single 2, 4s to 3 and 5 to 4.

Victor

yer man! wrote: »

This is slightly confusing, so if I'm going from museum to Harcourt, I will be charged two separate tram fares despite me never leaving the central zone, that's kinda crap.

You will tag on / off twice, but only charge one fare, as happens at the moment.

Victor

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

But now that the two lines are joined, why the need for the large number of zones and retaining red and green? There should be one set of zones (like everywhere else), with (central) Red 1 and 2 and Green 1 and 2 becoming simply Zone 1, the 3s becoming a single 2, 4s to 3 and 5 to 4.

Because that isn't how the fares are being charged.

In London, if going from zone 4 to zone 4 on the far side of the city, you are charged for travelling through only 4 zones. With Luas, you would be charged for 8. https://www.luas.ie/assets/files/RPA%20Marketing%20Campaign/Luas-Summary-fares-sheet_Valid-from-Fri-1st-Dec-2017.pdf

strandroad wrote: »

That's my guess too.

27 minutes SSG to Broombridge though! So slow.

It Christmas shopping time so who know what travel times will be like in the first few weeks. When Brides Glen opened, they tightened up the timetables after a few months.

tabbey wrote: »

A person planning to take a train towards Maynooth or M3, will be unable to depend on getting to Broombridge to make a connection.
Therefore a lot of people will head for Tara Street etc and get the train directly.

In fairness, if travelling from the south city, boarding the train at Tara Street might be the better idea than getting a tram.

Podge_irl

Stephen15 wrote: »

Not very intergrated if thats the case. Imagine if on the LU changing lines and you have to walk through the barriers twice in order to change trains.

You do have to do that at certain interchanges (e.g. Hammersmith or Paddington). It's not exactly the end of the world - it's also optional it seems.

delta_bravo

The whole thing is incredibly unnecessarily ambiguous. So is it confirmed the green line Brides Glen to Broombridge requires you to disembark at Parnell and get another train north?

devnull

Transdev have now clarified that all trams will call at Stephen's Green and the change is they simply will no longer terminate there.

They have also updated the article.