Cashless Society

Permabear

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wakka12

hate it hate it hate it. Hate everything about most technology created in the last few decades outside of healthcare , Id love to live in a society that was less focused on it . I hate that the profession I love is impossible to compete in without very up to date computer skills

Cant abide the feeling of all my hard earnings and everything Im worth floating around in space. With so many hackers and scammers who are so sly and with so many avenues and methods to scam online it just really scares me

BrokenArrows

cnocbui wrote: »

Not happening. I don't get any form of bill for telecoms. For electricity I can theoretically download and print off a PDF, otherwise I don't get one of those either. As I might need the ID for my own purposes I'm not going to be transferring the one and only residential ID I have into someone else's name.

Some suppliers will put more than one name on a bill.

4068ac1elhodqr

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll stick to notes/cash for as long as I can.

And that may well be possible (any physical objects with assigned value to it).

The original exchange system has and will always exist i.e. that of the 'barter'.

I've a 500yr old small cob coin, that can buy much more than it did back in the days of the Spanish Armada e.g. Today it would fetch the value of a full day of bespoke Blacksmithing, catchment basket of fresh Caribbean fish, dozen coconuts, bottle of brandy and other extraneous services comparable to that era.

The humble 5kg bag of organic potatoes will likely barter a full day of the latest VR environment in 2050.

questionmark?

cnocbui wrote: »

AIB is the biggest bank by far and would probably be a more significant operator than your 'most banks' put together, and boy do they charge.

Maybe people should stop banking with AIB and BOI for that matter and open current accounts with either free banking or low cost fixed fees. There are a fair few accounts out there offering one or the other. I get free banking and use my card for I'd say 80% of my spending.

Noveight

Cash is king. I'd hate to live in a cashless society.

Laois_Man

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, the security issue kills it for me. Most software apps have huge security holes waiting to be abused... and encouraging a cashless society before we have better security is madness. The signals from phones, tablets, etc can be intercepted. Even without the actual transaction being altered, it provides a large about of financial data. Considering that many security consultants are former hackers it suggests that people seriously into hacking are up to speed at cracking commercial levels of encryption.

I've been designing/programming apps for the games market with credit card transactions, and honestly, most forums are suggestive about the lack of decent security for those transactions. I'm nowhere up to speed with all of it yet, but what I've read so far doesn't fill me with confidence.

I'll stick to notes/cash for as long as I can.

The cashless society will probably exist on a blockchain or on some form of it. Which in security terms is entirely different than credit card transactions processing you're talking about. Its bullet proof....until the arrival of quantum computing anyway.

4068ac1elhodqr

Laois_Man wrote: »

Its bullet proof....until the arrival of quantum computing anyway.

For just 15$m, D-Wave’s 2000Q (with 2,000 qubits) is readily available to select customers e.g. NASA.

D-Wave’s system is based on the ‘paradigm of quantum annealing’, tried that once with the ladyfriend she didn’t enjoy it. IBM is using the gate mode.
Upgrades from D-wave expected every 18mths.

IBM has 5-qubit in the cloud for anyone to play with.

While Intel has just shipped a ‘coin sized’ 17-qubit package to the Netherlands, operating just above absolute zero.

Ultimately AI and machine learning will work out the best methodology, but quantum computing is already here.

Rubberchikken

Cash all the way here. That way I know where almost every penny is gone.

the_syco

Jim Bob Scratcher wrote: »

No more cash

A few Scandinavian countries already doing this, China too..

Unless you cap the charge amount of transactions to a low amount, it won't happen.

El_Duderino 09

mike_ie wrote:

I don't entirely agree. The expenditures you pointed out above are primarily optional - if I decide to buy an airline ticket for example, I have the choice between buying it online, and walking into a bricks and mortar travel agency and handing over cash for a ticket. Each method has pros and cons, but the decision still remains with me. Same with media consumption and so on - yes, it's becoming more difficult to engage in these transactions without having access to a credit card, but the choice still remains with me as to whether the benefits to me outweigh the downsides.

I don't think you can realistically pay your mortgage in cash these days. I don't know if you can be paid in cash if you're a public sector worker either. Maybe you can but I doubt many people use that option.

mike_ie wrote:

The issue is when such transactions are imposed on people - i.e. cashless society, where you have no choice but to engage in cashless transactions, then privacy of user data disappears out the window. By itself, someone knowing where you bought your cup of coffee this morning might not be such a big issue, but you could say the same thing about having your web browsing habits recorded and analysed - search for something now, and it's not too long before you have targeted advertising appearing, based on your searches. That kind of user data is invaluable to companies, so how long do you think it would take before you start getting spam about dark roast coffee, based on the fact that you've been buying a dark roast coffee every morning on the way to work?

I need someone to explain the problem with this to me. I feel that it's bad to have companies know my browsing history so they can advertise to me, but I don't actually see the problem. There will be a product advertised on the side of the browser anyway. Whether it's a random product or a product I have expressed interest in, I don't see how I'm harmed.

I think it feels like the information is valuable to the company so they should pay me for it. But in reality I've already received a service by using their browsing.

I've made peace with the fact that if you use the internet, then you are telling the browser what you're interested in, in exchange for using the browser.

Where I do see potential harm is when selling your transaction data becomes a vital part of the business model. Then a coffee shop might have to charge a transaction fee to make up for the fact that it's not making money from selling your transaction data.

mike_ie wrote:

There are also other things to take into account - albeit extremes, they do happen. What happens in the case of a natural disaster, such as Hurricane Katrina, except this time in a cashless society where all of these services are down?

In those cases money goes out the window. Money is just paper in those circumstances. Supply and demand takes over and a tin of butter beans or dose of medicine might be worth killing for. Money becomes worthless unless you're certain you can survive until normality is restored.

El_Duderino 09

erica74 wrote:

I prefer using my card, once I take money out of an atm, it's gone. I absolutely hate having to take out €50 notes! I use my card for 90% of my transactions and it helps me to keep track of my spending. If I'm using notes, I find the money just disappears and I can never account for every euro unless I have all of the receipts. And receipts are an inconvenience to keep in my bag or wallet. For card transactions I just keep an eye on my banking app and I can see everything.

Tipperary animal lover wrote:

Cash all the way for me for day to day things, with all this tapping its to easy to run away with yourself buying things plus with every tap your paying an extra few cents on top of your purchase every time for that facility. With cash in my hand i know how much i have to spend and spend accordingly.as for recipes always good to keep incase of returns. Each to their own i suppose....

This is a an interesting contrast. I used to find cash spending easier to follow but now I find the banking app much easier to know how much money I've spent. I imagine young people will learn to deal with money digitally.

Also my bank doesn't charge for cashless transactions. I can tap for a pack of chewing gum and there's no fee. Some shops have a charge below a minimum amount alright.

OwaynOTT

erica74 wrote: »

I prefer using my card, once I take money out of an atm, it's gone. I absolutely hate having to take out €50 notes!
I use my card for 90% of my transactions and it helps me to keep track of my spending. If I'm using notes, I find the money just disappears and I can never account for every euro unless I have all of the receipts. And receipts are an inconvenience to keep in my bag or wallet. For card transactions I just keep an eye on my banking app and I can see everything.

Unless of course, the shop doesn't manage to balance their credit machine. Oh look I have €400, let's splurge.
Crap, I didn't actually have that. Toast for the week so.


I worked in a shop where this happened over the course of a few months. Machine was never balanced and the payments stayed in limbo.
Got a call from the owner in a panic to balance it becuase there was over 10 grand sitting there.
Great couple of weeks after that.
Why you take €400 outta my account last week?
Will that was for the thing you bought back in May.

G_R

OwaynOTT wrote: »

Unless of course, the shop doesn't manage to balance their credit machine. Oh look I have €400, let's splurge.
Crap, I didn't actually have that. Toast for the week so.


I worked in a shop where this happened over the course of a few months. Machine was never balanced and the payments stayed in limbo.
Got a call from the owner in a panic to balance it becuase there was over 10 grand sitting there.
Great couple of weeks after that.
Why you take €400 outta my account last week?
Will that was for the thing you bought back in May.

Assuming the machine isnt working offline, and the majority of retailers won't allow that functionality on their machine, the money is unavailable from your bank account as soon as you spend it - it sits there as an unprocessed transaction but you don't have access to the funds. The only difference is that it won't show up on your statement or your online banking as a posted transaction until the shop posts it.

Exception to the above is small value contactless transactions. They are usually processed offline (which is why it's a lot faster) and they are then batch processed at the end of the day/every couple of days. But you're talking about a couple of Euro here it's not a big deal

Laois_Man

Eduardo Rapid Muscle wrote: »

For just 15$m, D-Wave’s 2000Q (with 2,000 qubits) is readily available to select customers e.g. NASA.

D-Wave’s system is based on the ‘paradigm of quantum annealing’, tried that once with the ladyfriend she didn’t enjoy it. IBM is using the gate mode.
Upgrades from D-wave expected every 18mths.

IBM has 5-qubit in the cloud for anyone to play with.

While Intel has just shipped a ‘coin sized’ 17-qubit package to the Netherlands, operating just above absolute zero.

Ultimately AI and machine learning will work out the best methodology, but quantum computing is already here.

When I talk about the arrival of quantum computing, I talk about it in the context of it being commercially available, affordable and usable by those wishing to hack a blockchain, and it would require significantly more than 17 qubits capacity. That's all still some way off.

Permabear

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El_Duderino 09

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

All that is true but I don’t see how I’m harmed by them knowing all that about me.

It makes me uneasy but I can’t put my finger on how I’m harmed

Permabear

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El_Duderino 09

Yeah that’s interesting.

The first one is very interesting alright but not harmful as such. It’s more targeted supply and demand.

The second example could be a serious concern alright.

dr.fuzzenstein

No more cash stuffed in the mattress, no more babysitting the neighbours kids and have a few notes handed to you, no more nixers or favours for friends, no more begging, no more pocket money for the kids.
The banks will cream themselves over it, they can now charge whatever fees they want for watching over those precious 1s and 0s. Revenue will sh*t themselves over the extra income. The kid next door will now have to become a fully qualified, licensed and taxed childminder, the neighbour changing a lightbulb for Granny next door an fully licensed and taxed electrician, the beggar will need a contactless pay-point, your kids will need a bank account and those transfers will have to be reported to revenue as income, no more selling jam to the neighbours for a few quid, Mrs Miggins will now have to rent an industrial unit and comply with the same standards as a multinational corporation, the list goes on.
This is just another step to handing complete control of our lives over to state, bank and global corporations.

El_Duderino 09

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

No more cash stuffed in the mattress, no more babysitting the neighbours kids and have a few notes handed to you, no more nixers or favours for friends, no more begging, no more pocket money for the kids.
The banks will cream themselves over it, they can now charge whatever fees they want for watching over those precious 1s and 0s. Revenue will sh*t themselves over the extra income. The kid next door will now have to become a fully qualified, licensed and taxed childminder, the neighbour changing a lightbulb for Granny next door an fully licensed and taxed electrician, the beggar will need a contactless pay-point, your kids will need a bank account and those transfers will have to be reported to revenue as income, no more selling jam to the neighbours for a few quid, Mrs Miggins will now have to rent an industrial unit and comply with the same standards as a multinational corporation, the list goes on.
This is just another step to handing complete control of our lives over to state, bank and global corporations.

Even if those transactions went digital, there’s still a diminutive limit on what revenue will care about.

Some economies rely on cash economy to keep things running smoothly. The undocumented workers in America spring to mind. Casual labour or childminding or selling jam to your neighbours is unlikely to bother revenue.

dr.fuzzenstein

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Even if those transactions went digital, there’s still a diminutive limit on what revenue will care about.

Some economies rely on cash economy to keep things running smoothly. The undocumented workers in America spring to mind. Casual labour or childminding or selling jam to your neighbours is unlikely to bother revenue.

Once every cent that we move about becomes digitally traceable, they might start caring.
Right now handing someone a fiver for a favour is untraceable and taxing it impossible and unenforceable, but once it's all nicely recorded and can be sorted neatly in a database, enforcing tax on every cent becomes as easy as the click of a mouse. Untaxed activities represent a huge cash value and the desire is to eradicate it, in the end it won't matter if it's your nice minding the kids for a few hours, because first it's untaxed income and second it's lost revenue to a professional childminder.
Add together those two and you have a substantial figure. It doesn't matter if it makes sense, civil servants, accountants and solicitors don't think in those terms.
You can be damn sure the complete eradication of cash (instead of going 90% cashless for example) comes with precisely that in mind.

4068ac1elhodqr

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

No more cash stuffed in the mattress

Small bullion, watches, jewellery perhaps i.e. any small physical object that holds high perceived value through barter, or other.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

no more babysitting the neighbours kids and have a few notes handed to you

Handed bottle of wine and shop paper voucher/token-card.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

no more begging, no more pocket money for the kids.

Food, water, new clothes/gifts offered.

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The banks will cream themselves over it, they can now charge whatever fees they want for watching over those precious 1s and 0s. Revenue will sh*t themselves over the extra income.

To an extend anyone not using 'barter methods' will become traceable. Ideally it would stop F1 drivers buying new private jets (using wire transfers), renting it to themselves and claiming the VAT back.

Or rock stars buying shopping centers at reduced 5% tax rates on profits, but alas this has proven not to be the case already due to common loopholes known as 'avoidance' (not 'evasion').

Yes independent coffee shop's will be fully taxed (including tips), conglomerates will not, due to 'premium accounting services'

El_Duderino 09

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Even if those transactions went digital, there’s still a diminutive limit on what revenue will care about.

Some economies rely on cash economy to keep things running smoothly. The undocumented workers in America spring to mind. Casual labour or childminding or selling jam to your neighbours is unlikely to bother revenue.

Once every cent that we move about becomes digitally traceable, they might start caring.
Right now handing someone a fiver for a favour is untraceable and taxing it impossible and unenforceable, but once it's all nicely recorded and can be sorted neatly in a database, enforcing tax on every cent becomes as easy as the click of a mouse. Untaxed activities represent a huge cash value and the desire is to eradicate it, in the end it won't matter if it's your nice minding the kids for a few hours, because first it's untaxed income and second it's lost revenue to a professional childminder.
Add together those two and you have a substantial figure. It doesn't matter if it makes sense, civil servants, accountants and solicitors don't think in those terms.
You can be damn sure the complete eradication of cash (instead of going 90% cashless for example) comes with precisely that in mind.

None of that is necessarily true. There are currently no tax expected when you give someone a birthday present of 20 quid.

Worst case scenario; tax evasion ends. So what? No more claiming benefits and working on the side. After Hours should be delighted!

jerseyman

never gonna happen. Was in a pub one evening off Grafton Street, asked if accepted Debit Card as no cash. No, was the reply

plenty of Businesses are cash only (some even take cheques)

Capt'n Midnight

Tommy Ferguson wrote: »

They may as well ram a tracker up our hole altogether.

They aren't going to do that.

Because that would block it's mic, camera, and antennas.




Would also make charging a mite more difficult.

El_Duderino 09

jerseyman wrote: »

never gonna happen. Was in a pub one evening off Grafton Street, asked if accepted Debit Card as no cash. No, was the reply

plenty of Businesses are cash only (some even take cheques)

It’s already happening. I’m sure some few businesses are cash only. The fact that you’ve got to point to a specific pub that’s cash only as distinct from all the other pubs that take cards, demonstrates that it’s already well under way.

Whether things go completely 100% cashless is debatable. Right now I take out cash £30 each month and that’s all the cash I need. Everything else is digital. Rent, utilities, food, entertainment, online shopping, clothes are all digital. When one of the lads books match tickets for the group, about half the time they send around their bank account no. for everyone to pay through their phone rather than cash.

Money is mostly digital for me already.

murpho999

Rubberchikken wrote: »

Cash all the way here. That way I know where almost every penny is gone.

Obviously I don't know your personal circumstances but do you get paid in cash and then pay all household bills in cash including your mortgage?

I only use cash for small spending like a coffee or a night out in a pub otherwise everything is direct debit or paid with a card/phone.

It's all very easy and also very simple to keep track off.

The idea that cash is more secure is a fallacy in my opinion.

murpho999

jerseyman wrote: »

never gonna happen. Was in a pub one evening off Grafton Street, asked if accepted Debit Card as no cash. No, was the reply

plenty of Businesses are cash only (some even take cheques)

So you know of one pub and that means it's not happening.

Also, any business that deals in cash only and still accepts cheques (the most insecure form of payment) are really stupid as they are taking security risks have large amount of cash onsite and they are paying way more in bank charges to have cash handled by their banks than they would for electronic transactions.

The advances in Phone/mobile devices tech and social media make a cashless society inevitable. It might take a while (5-10) years but it will happen. It's already going that way with cafes encouraging people to use member cards (where you transfer money to them), to the banks issuing debit cards which only need to be waved at a scanner for the transaction to occur.

I don't believe we will have a completely cashless society though, not for a long time anyway. I suspect that it will be cashless for 80% of all transactions, and most people will get on board with it, but some people will avoid it for as long as possible. It really depends on how secure it becomes, and whether there are scandals regarding fraud or scandals like breaches in data protection.

Someone mentioned that China wasn't even close to being cashless, but that's because of the numbers of poor people in the country. Most of those midlde class or above, have a phone, wechat (weixin), and pay for most things that way. Your wechat account is tied to your bank account, and you just scan another phone to pay a bill. I've used my own wechat to pay for noodles from a street vendor. It's become very common and is likely to grow in popularity. But many people are definitely going to rely on cash for purchasing because they don't trust the banks or the government to know their spending habits.