The poor farmer hypocrisy

Feckoffcup

Chap said to me there's no money in farming and what he was doing was making no money. A couple of mins later he went on to explain he bought a 200hp New Holland for £54,000 recently. Now this guy doesn't have big machinery to pull... Oh and he hopped back into his 2016 Hilux.
Am I missing something here?

Grueller

Feckoffcup wrote: »

Chap said to me there's no money in farming and what he was doing was making no money. A couple of mins later he went on to explain he bought a 200hp New Holland for £54,000 recently. Now this guy doesn't have big machinery to pull... Oh and he hopped back into his 2016 Hilux.
Am I missing something here?

Not missing anything. You saw exactly where all his money was "invested" if as you say he has no big machinery to pull.

grassroot1

yes the chance to say that to him

kk.man

Some Fellas go around putting on a poor show hoping people believe them..its a kinda sick way to act.
A fella said to me once...you should dress down going to the Mart cause people think ya have money.

Willfarman

There's lads that'd moan if they won the lotto because they'd have to go to collect it..

Waffletraktor

Feckoffcup wrote: »

Am I missing something here?

Not much only the usual nonsense.
See it the whole time if a farm does have a good year they fill the yard with shiny new toys and just pay more out on rents to produce more hoping next year is even better back to square one. Spuds are the worst for it.

mf240

Farmers complain 11 months of the year that there making no money and then the other month complaining about paying tax. Some of the worst offenders would make Mary Lou look like an optimist.

Willfarman

kk.man wrote: »

Some Fellas go around putting on a poor show hoping people believe them..its a kinda sick way to act.
A fella said to me once...you should dress down going to the Mart cause people think ya have money.

I think the opposite is often the case.. the wannabe dealers wearing the designer label jumpers and jackets and then see them huddled in booth in the office in hushed tones.. il pay for last week and the week before. Put that animal down to such and such..

whelan2

Just because they have shiny new machinery doesn't mean they can afford to pay for it.

K.G.

Very simple.you are equating large investment with making money and that guy probaly is making no money.the guy with clapped out jeep and clapped out tractor could be making a fortune though.very common mistake you are making which alot of farmers themselves make. I ve relation that calls to farmers now and again and often remarks how common it for farmers to new machinery and faney cattle houses yet be living in sqauler in the farm house.

_Brian

I deal with allot of farmers and most smaller farms are making nothing, or essentially nothing.
I’d hazard a guess that 30-40% of farms are making nothing bar the cheque in the post and for many that’s not anything near a wage.

What I’m seeing ian lots of bachelors where their pension oryounfwr men SW is keeping them, other than that a wife out working is holding things together financially.

Markcheese

True, but a shiney new jeep that you can't write off against profit, because you don't have any??

patsy_mccabe

Why are people so opposed to buying things new? Would you criticize a carpenter for buying a new saw? We can't all keep trading in second hand machinery. Soemone has to buy them new, to keep the cycle going.
(Says the guy with the 40 year old tractor. )

whelan2

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Why are people so opposed to buying things new? Would you criticize a carpenter for buying a new saw? We can't all keep trading in second hand machinery. Soemone has to buy them new, to keep the cycle going.
(Says the guy with the 40 year old tractor. )

No shiny metal disease here, was thinking of trading in our digger or tractor earlier in the year but they are both going grand- touch wood- got a new clutch and hydraulic pump in the tm125 last month, should keep it going for another while. Although when I get the bill it might have been cheaper to get a new tractor :eek:

voz es

Based in the west of Ireland on a sluckler farm.

We have had a few new attachments and the odd new topper or transport box over the years. But to be buying a new tractor would be a half decades profit. I would love to know how it is done!

Even running a 15 year old landcruiser over a caddy van seems strange when i look at some of the 40 acre set ups around me. I understand the need when it is a greatly fragmented farm with high stocking intensity but a good 80/90hp 4WD tractor should cover next to everything on a farm.
I think myself a 40k box tractor would be enough for most lads. I know lads worry about front loaders on the road, but surly investing in a proper frame for the front loader that makes putting it on and taking it off easy is a wiser move.

foxy farmer

Some people are unbelievably tight. I was looking at a shed that was damaged in a storm. 3 bay Round roof and bay of a leanto whipped off completely. Remains of the roof are 100 yrds away in a tangled mess. Yer man is talking about stripping the sheets straightening them and putting them back up. The whole shed is 42x37. The same lad is milking 200 cows.

Timmaay

foxy farmer wrote: »

Some people are unbelievably tight. I was looking at a shed that was damaged in a storm. 3 bay Round roof and bay of a leanto whipped off completely. Remains of the roof are 100 yrds away in a tangled mess. Yer man is talking about stripping the sheets straightening them and putting them back up. The whole shed is 42x37. The same lad is milking 200 cows.

Each to their own, if he has the time and skill to do it and is happy it's worth salvaging then work away.

lalababa

If a fella is buying new tractors and Jeep's then he must have quite a lump of money. If he doesn't have a lump then he is probably going to get into trouble.
Look up average farm incomes on cso or teagasc , it doesn't make good reading especially on beef and tillage.
Yer man is just a complaining gob****e.

simx

There's a few different types

The lad that buys a heap of new machinery, always putting up sheds and then gives out about no money, the same lad would probably buy a new tractor before buying a new battery for a old one

The lad that keeps it low cost but still is cute, he's proabably making a few bob and saying nothing about it, this is the lad that arrives to a land auction and buys the land when everyone thought the other lad would buy it

Markcheese

patsy_mccabe wrote:

Why are people so opposed to buying things new? Would you criticize a carpenter for buying a new saw? We can't all keep trading in second hand machinery. Soemone has to buy them new, to keep the cycle going. (Says the guy with the 40 year old tractor. )

Depends on the amount of usage, and the value though.. I dont think anyone begrudges a farmer a decent pair of wellies or a new dung pike. (-: .. But if a fella has 10 scrawny cattle and a brand new jeep in the yard that's his own issue till he starts an Beal bocht..

simx

Markcheese wrote: »

Depends on the amount of usage, and the value though.. I dont think anyone begrudges a farmer a decent pair of wellies or a new dung pike. (-: .. But if a fella has 10 scrawny cattle and a brand new jeep in the yard that's his own issue till he starts an Beal bocht..

So many farmers think they need a jeep that don't too I think, the new jeep or tractor is a status symbol too

MIKEKC

whelan2 wrote: »

Just because they have shiny new machinery doesn't mean they can afford to pay for it.

If they don't surely it will be taken away. More shame

jaymla627

simx wrote: »

So many farmers think they need a jeep that don't too I think, the new jeep or tractor is a status symbol too

Putting up 1500 plus hours on the tractor here a year, with the cost of repairs and downtime running older kit that's working hard id rather change the tractor every four years before it gets into needing a fortune spent on it to keep it running, if you have the misfortune of a gearbox failure on a high houred modern tractor you could be talking 10k plus to put it right and the tractor won't be worth a penny more either

simx

jaymla627 wrote: »

Putting up 1500 plus hours on the tractor here a year, with the cost of repairs and downtime running older kit that's working hard id rather change the tractor every four years before it gets into needing a fortune spent on it to keep it running, if you have the misfortune of a gearbox failure on a high houred modern tractor you could be talking 10k plus to put it right and the tractor won't be worth a penny more either

Ah no I understand that, but plenty lads wouldn't be putting many hours on tractors yearly but "need" a new one, the same lads would never reseed a field etc.

larthehar

Farming like any other business needs to have decent equipment to operate.. some lads over do it and other under do it but the business should be able to support equipment maintenance/renewal..

On the money subject, i think that money can be easily made out of farming but making a living is whole different ball game.. the average industrial wage is 35k.. from a beef perspective if you could clear 200/hd on every animal that is still 175 animals to make a living..

PMU

yes simx, they will buy meal before fertilizer

Limestone Cowboy

I think myself it's very easy to spend a big lump of money if you can access it easily on something that's not necessarily needed, I'd have notions myself at times but when it comes to the crunch if it's not going to pay it's way it'll become a non runner.

simx

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

I think myself it's very easy to spend a big lump of money if you can access it easily on something that's not necessarily needed, I'd have notions myself at times but when it comes to the crunch if it's not going to pay it's way it'll become a non runner.

All comes back to the thing of 'want or need'

lakill Farm

from a tax perspective since the introduction of s392 and being able to offset capital allowances in a loss making year its a handy tool if you have an off farm income

personally I have invested a few euro in machinery since we bought here. but at the stage now that I have a few more small items (all second-hand if I can source) and that's it. trying to stand a shed to put machines into also

half the reason I buy machines is being able to do stuff myself when I want and it does cut down on contractor fee and tax side wraps up the other half

Donegalforever

Feckoffcup wrote: »

Chap said to me there's no money in farming and what he was doing was making no money. A couple of mins later he went on to explain he bought a 200hp New Holland for £54,000 recently. Now this guy doesn't have big machinery to pull... Oh and he hopped back into his 2016 Hilux.
Am I missing something here?

Did he pay for the New Holland and the Hilux or are they on HP or leased?
Some like to show off yet they are into their eyeballs in debt.

patsy_mccabe

It's not rocket science. It's easy know what kinda profit anyone is making on their farm. Costs, farm gate prices and even average profits for each sector of the industry are well documented.

Off farm incomes and fellas maximising their capital allowances are a different matter altogether.

mfceiling

Same in construction lads. Fellas buying big new transporter vans and all they have in the back is their sandwiches.

Lad years ago used to laugh at me in my 5 year old van while he drove a brand new navara. The following year I met him on a job and I asked him about parking on site...."I'm not sure mate, I get a lift". Turns out he couldn't afford the finance and the running of it. He was getting a lift on the back of a moped!! My little van was grand on the cold wet mornings with the heater on!!

Icelandicseige

mfceiling wrote: »

Same in construction lads. Fellas buying big new transporter vans and all they have in the back is their sandwiches.

Lad years ago used to laugh at me in my 5 year old van while he drove a brand new navara. The following year I met him on a job and I asked him about parking on site...."I'm not sure mate, I get a lift". Turns out he couldn't afford the finance and the running of it. He was getting a lift on the back of a moped!! My little van was grand on the cold wet mornings with the heater on!!

Ah jaysus talk about kicking a fella when he is down.

Cavanjack

Few lads near me with new j deers. Wouldn't think they've 100 acres each. I'd say the heat rarely goes on in their houses. More lads with new jeeps and trailers to bring 20 cattle to the mart every year. Let them at it, it takes all sorts and sure where would we get the second hand gear without them.
This is why we are still getting the sfp. It's for spending on machinery and concrete.

Muckit

.... and somebody has to supply that concrete and new machinery. So in a way they're keeping people in jobs and have to be admired. What good are the lads doin for anyone that keep it under their mattress? Nobody gets any good out of it. Made round to go round, spend it up to hell before our time runs out!!

Grueller

Muckit wrote: »

.... and somebody has to supply that concrete and new machinery. So in a way they're keeping people in jobs and have to be admired. What good are the lads doin for anyone that keep it under their mattress? Nobody gets any good out of it. Made round to go round, spend it up to hell before our time runs out!!

That's a fair point. A bachelor farmer near here left a farm to a nephew. He also left him with north of €100k in cash. He had never spent a penny on sheds, fencing, reseeding or the dwelling house. All of the money plus another €60k went into making it a viable enterprise. A small few Bob spent little and often and it would have taken feck all to get it right.

patsy_mccabe

An American goes into an Irish restaurant and is surprised to see the lobsters swimming around in a tank with no lid. "Might they not escape?" he asks the waiter. "Don't worry sir, he was told, "they're Irish lobsters and if one looks like climbing out the others pull him back into the tank."

J.O. Farmer

Muckit wrote: »

.... and somebody has to supply that concrete and new machinery. So in a way they're keeping people in jobs and have to be admired. What good are the lads doin for anyone that keep it under their mattress? Nobody gets any good out of it. Made round to go round, spend it up to hell before our time runs out!!

Something like this anecdote about banking.
https://youtu.be/sqdFRg17ql8

Dickie10

not sure really what i am making or if i am doing well, i dont want to buy a new tractor even though a lot of people are onto me. i have a 1987 2 wheel drive case 585 and 96 jcb teleporter for feeding and other jobs, teleporter is a god send.

bought a jeep 1997 land cruiser for €1600 in the last few weeks, only because my old 01 passat died from hauling. i did howver splash out on a brand new ifor williams with decks last year. i was bring over 200 lambs a year to factory with the car and a bulderes flat trailer with railings for over 15 years but it was a two man job to load lambs, so i had to give that up. i need any job to be a one man thing because my father is now 82, so not having him out pulling and dragging, mush as he would love to!!

im bring around 300+ lambs along with cull ewes now to factory/ mart so it was a bit of a push for a car. thats about all my machinery spend. i get contractor for everything and do pit silage maybe 30 bales max.

on the profit side i dont really know how im doing, i would like some advice but perhaps wouldnt like to put it up here. to be honest would the best way of knowing how profitable you are be by looking at whats in the account all year round? like i belive cash flow must be the lifeblood of any business? am i wrong? is it more complicated?

Willfarman

If you have a roof over your head. Warm dry snug. Clean water.You ate well today. You are in the small percentage of the worlds population. The saying that your health is your wealth is the truth.

lakill Farm

Surely look at your farm accounts over a 5 year period

Dickie10 wrote: »

not sure really what i am making or if i am doing well, i dont want to buy a new tractor even though a lot of people are onto me. i have a 1987 2 wheel drive case 585 and 96 jcb teleporter for feeding and other jobs, teleporter is a god send.

bought a jeep 1997 land cruiser for €1600 in the last few weeks, only because my old 01 passat died from hauling. i did howver splash out on a brand new ifor williams with decks last year. i was bring over 200 lambs a year to factory with the car and a bulderes flat trailer with railings for over 15 years but it was a two man job to load lambs, so i had to give that up. i need any job to be a one man thing because my father is now 82, so not having him out pulling and dragging, mush as he would love to!!

im bring around 300+ lambs along with cull ewes now to factory/ mart so it was a bit of a push for a car. thats about all my machinery spend. i get contractor for everything and do pit silage maybe 30 bales max.

on the profit side i dont really know how im doing, i would like some advice but perhaps wouldnt like to put it up here. to be honest would the best way of knowing how profitable you are be by looking at whats in the account all year round? like i belive cash flow must be the lifeblood of any business? am i wrong? is it more complicated?

Bass Reeves

Dickie10 wrote: »

not sure really what i am making or if i am doing well, i dont want to buy a new tractor even though a lot of people are onto me. i have a 1987 2 wheel drive case 585 and 96 jcb teleporter for feeding and other jobs, teleporter is a god send.

bought a jeep 1997 land cruiser for €1600 in the last few weeks, only because my old 01 passat died from hauling. i did howver splash out on a brand new ifor williams with decks last year. i was bring over 200 lambs a year to factory with the car and a bulderes flat trailer with railings for over 15 years but it was a two man job to load lambs, so i had to give that up. i need any job to be a one man thing because my father is now 82, so not having him out pulling and dragging, mush as he would love to!!

im bring around 300+ lambs along with cull ewes now to factory/ mart so it was a bit of a push for a car. thats about all my machinery spend. i get contractor for everything and do pit silage maybe 30 bales max.

on the profit side i dont really know how im doing, i would like some advice but perhaps wouldnt like to put it up here. to be honest would the best way of knowing how profitable you are be by looking at whats in the account all year round? like i belive cash flow must be the lifeblood of any business? am i wrong? is it more complicated?

I hope you are doing accounts.


Some lads have the poor mouth all the time. It the same in any job or business, there are lads that will poor mouth it, lads that will say nothing and lads that will tell you the truth. Look at house renting there are loads of lads mouthing about the problems that they have, the bad tenants non payers etc.

A lot is about the way a business is run. Some farmers are hap hazzard in there business just like some landlords, shop owners, publicans etc. But a lot of farming especially drystock and tillage is a low margin business. But if you understand that and do not add cost into the business it is profitable.

Some do not understand that you do not need a a new 100Hp tractor and loader as well as a Jeep and 14' trailer to run a 50-60 acre drystock farm. You do not need bells and whistles in sheds and the simpler the set up the better. It is easy to feed 3-400 bales with a goodish 2WD tractor. it is easy to get a haulier to bring cattle home from the mart or to the factor. I do see the need if selling in the mart to have maybe an 8X5 box to bring one or two home if the worst happens. But DD also exists to buy and sell.

mikefoxo

Brother was working down in west Cork last year for a bit. Lot of dairy lads all playing 'keeping up with the Joneses'. In a way it was good, they were all trying to be super efficent (reseeding, lime, profit monitor etc.), but they were also going around in brand new machines. Except for one lad. He had a two wheel drive tractor, a fertiliser spreader and not much else and he was making the most out of the lot of them

Muckit

What l can't get over is if any other business invests in new buildings and machinery they are great. But no if a farmer does the same to help them be more efficient it is frowned upon.

If l was farming fulltime I'd be wanting a fairly new machine and good buildings and work environment from a safety and efficiency point of view. Abd I'd be expecting my business to be making the returns to fund it aswell as paying me a realistic wage.

Markcheese

Muckit wrote:

If l was farming fulltime I'd be wanting a fairly new machine and good buildings and work environment from a safety and efficiency point of view. Abd I'd be expecting my business to be making the returns to fund it aswell as paying me a realistic wage.

Expecting it, and getting it are 2 different things.. But safety and a bit of comfort are reasonable expectations...

Dunedin

Muckit wrote: »

What l can't get over is if any other business invests in new buildings and machinery they are great. But no if a farmer does the same to help them be more efficient it is frowned upon.

If l was farming fulltime I'd be wanting a fairly new machine and good buildings and work environment from a safety and efficiency point of view. Abd I'd be expecting my business to be making the returns to fund it aswell as paying me a realistic wage.

The best comment on here in a while. And as a part timer it’s nearly more important as you need reliable machines to go when you come home in the evening as well decent sheds to make foddering handy in the dark evenings

Dickie10

yea doing accounts just not sure what the net profit on average is nationally and where i may fit as a beef and sheep farmer. i would like to know where i am so i would be able to make sense of those farm surveys that come out yearly.

Dickie10

i mean i know my own farm income this year. i suppose i want to knoww where i sit. i am right in saying that the farm income they talk about in surveys is gross profit (all money in, inc. grants) -minus your expenses, these i include as fertiiser, feeds, contractors, car running costs,esb, phones, vets, sundries , machinery upkeep, diesel etc.

MickeyShtyles

Muckit wrote: »

What l can't get over is if any other business invests in new buildings and machinery they are great. But no if a farmer does the same to help them be more efficient it is frowned upon.

If l was farming fulltime I'd be wanting a fairly new machine and good buildings and work environment from a safety and efficiency point of view. Abd I'd be expecting my business to be making the returns to fund it aswell as paying me a realistic wage.

The difference in the two MuckIt is that when ya hear on the news that ‘400 jobs have been created in Louth’ the public goes fair play to them.
But then they see the farmers on the news protesting (again) over poor prices and the like.
And then they see all the brand new tractors and machinery that these ‘poor farmers’ have.
It’s purely a massive generalization by the public!

Hard Knocks

MickeyShtyles wrote: »

The difference in the two MuckIt is that when ya hear on the news that ‘400 jobs have been created in Louth’ the public goes fair play to them.
But then they see the farmers on the news protesting (again) over poor prices and the like.
And then they see all the brand new tractors and machinery that these ‘poor farmers’ have.
It’s purely a massive generalization by the public!

Yes why when protesting are the finest of modern tractors on display instead MF35’s, Ford 4000’s ...

Stopitwillya

Farming is only part time for me now. Have had to get another job in order to supplement my income.