General Rugby Discussion II

aloooof

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How so? A player would still be leaving the pitch, a team would have to juggle their line up to accommodate replacement. It also means losing a sub for someone potentially. Lots of knock on consequences.

It's not like a coach is going to instruct his players to out looking to hurt someone with a dangerous shot, not are players likely to be wanting to do so either.

Because the punishment is less severe. So a player (or a coach instructing them) may be more willing to risk mis-timing a more impactful, but more dangerous, tackle than they otherwise would.

We have some evidence on the corollary; take the Jared Payne and CJ Stander red's you mentioned. How often now do we see chasers / defenders allowing the jumping player return to ground before tackling. That's all down to the danger of the red card if they feel they can't complete safely in the air.

Yeah_Right

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Get over yourself. Yes i am a ref. But that cant define every discussion i have on laws/the game.

Games are not ruined because of red cards happening because of foul play.

That was a clear red for lomax.

I think that's the first time I've ever seen you criticize a ref.

Games can be ruined as a contest by a early red card for a simple mistimed tackle. I have no issue with red for a shoulder charge or deliberate blow to the head or a knee or a kick or a spear tackle. The 2 tackles that we've been talking about were fairly innocuous.

As long as there were still suspensions and fines for players who get sent off, even if they're replaced, I can't see any pro player going out there to deliberately or even recklessly do that.

The Lost Sheep

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think that's the first time I've ever seen you criticize a ref.

Games can be ruined as a contest by a early red card for a simple mistimed tackle. I have no issue with red for a shoulder charge or deliberate blow to the head or a knee or a kick or a spear tackle. The 2 tackles that we've been talking about were fairly innocuous.

As long as there were still suspensions and fines for players who get sent off, even if they're replaced, I can't see any pro player going out there to deliberately or even recklessly do that.

I regularly do but some dont/wont see it.

I dont see why all foul play worthy of a red card should not be treated the same.
At what level do you stop and say that is worthy of a replacement and that isnt.

thomond2006

A GAA type black card is not something I want to see in rugby tbh. Even then, the black card is for cynical play only. Dangerous play carries a red card.

AbusesToilets

thomond2006 wrote: »

A GAA type black card is not something I want to see in rugby tbh. Even then, the black card is for cynical play only. Dangerous play carries a red card.

I think that's completely inverted for rugby tbh. Cynical play has a far more deleterious impact on the game than dangerous play, given most of it is accidental. I'd rather refs were quicker to yellow and red for persistent cheating than a guy misjudging a tackle.

salmocab

AbusesToilets wrote: »

How so? A player would still be leaving the pitch, a team would have to juggle their line up to accommodate replacement. It also means losing a sub for someone potentially. Lots of knock on consequences.

It's not like a coach is going to instruct his players to out looking to hurt someone with a dangerous shot, not are players likely to be wanting to do so either.

Because the punishment for an offence is lessened then the risk reward is changed. Honestly I thought that would have been self evident.

Paul Weller

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but 3 Argentinian players including their captain Matera have been suspended for historical racist social media posts

Burkie1203

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Everything the ref does is subjective. Rucks are a nightmare of inconsistencies, and a blight on the game. I think there's room to give refs some discretion with respect to this.

The laws of the game are open to interpretation. Player welfare and Protection of players heads should not be.

International rugby is the most watched level of the game. With supposedly the best refs and TMO and multiple TV angles for replays. The only way to have player behaviours change at all levels is if at the top levels the refs get it consistently correct and the punishment is visible in game, not 3 days later in a citing hearing.

razorblunt

Paul Weller wrote: »

Not sure if it's been mentioned, but 3 Argentinian players including their captain Matera have been suspended for historical racist social media posts

What were the actual tweets?
I read “discriminatory and xenophobic”.

Burkie1203

razorblunt wrote: »

What were the actual tweets?
I read “discriminatory and xenophobic”.

They are from 2011 or 2012
They are tweets about Bolivians and others, and one tweet at least contained the word "neg***"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rugbyonslaught.com/pablo-matera-deletes-his-social-media-after-controversial-old-tweets-are-revealed/

sydthebeat

Burkie1203 wrote: »

They are from 2011 or 2012
They are tweets about Bolivians and others, and one tweet at least contained the word "neg***"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.rugbyonslaught.com/pablo-matera-deletes-his-social-media-after-controversial-old-tweets-are-revealed/

That one is roughly "nice morning to go out driving over blacks"

Cookiemunster

While not trying to defend anything, should we be judging people on things they did when they were 17/18? I mean what they posted back then was repugnant, but who didn't do some absolutely stupid things when they were that age that the look back on now with at least embarrassment?

sydthebeat

I've always said, now that I'm moving into my mid 40s, that I'm delighted camera phones, social media etc doesn't exist when I was a teenager.

I would hate to be a kid these days when everything you do can be filmed or photoed.

I've supervised discos for the 11/12 year age group and there's no such thing as a first 'shift' and more because the moment you get close you have loads of cameras over you recording.... It's actually horrific.

I completely agree that something you wrote ten years ago shouldn't be an actionable offence now, apology and "youthful ignorance" excuse should suffice if it can be shown that you don't hold those views any more.

Quin_Dub

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Losing a starting player is not a punishment? It's unlikely that the replacement player is to the same level, how often do we see that in teams?

When you have situations that are often subjective in their interpretations, and inconsistent with respect to how laws are applied, I think it's quite unfair to have such a harsh penalty. Stander got sent off for hitting Lambie, yet Le Roux got to come back on for taking out TOH. Both receiving players ended up going off injured.

The game wants the harshest punishment for actions that can occur in split second. It's too inconsiderate imo, and doesn't take into account the realities of large men smashing into each other at high speed.

What is the down side to allowing a replacement in a situation where a ref deems it a case of accidental dangerous play?

At Pro Level?

Pretty much all the time , with the possible exception of a few "marquee" players on a team.

For example , if Ireland had lost Stander in the Georgia game in a similar incident under a new set of rules , would they really have been weakened by POM coming on instead?

Yeah_Right

Cookiemunster wrote: »

While not trying to defend anything, should we be judging people on things they did when they were 17/18? I mean what they posted back then was repugnant, but who didn't do some absolutely stupid things when they were that age that the look back on now with at least embarrassment?

I agree. If you met 17/18 year old me, you would probably consider him to be pretty homophobic. It wasn't till I got to university that I actually grew up (a little bit ) and realised my way of thinking and my behaviour was wrong.

errlloyd

Very up for a discussion of cancel culture and how shifting societal norms create a minefield.

But, there are some despicable racist things in those messages. An 18 year old in a Christian country might have some messed up views about trans rights they can plead ignorance about when they're 26. But racism is objectively bad, and has been for a long time.

hahashake

errlloyd wrote: »

Very up for a discussion of cancel culture and how shifting societal norms create a minefield.

But, there are some despicable racist things in those messages. An 18 year old in a Christian country might have some messed up views about trans rights they can plead ignorance about when they're 26. But racism is objectively bad, and has been for a long time.

How long?;)

Pudsy33

Matera didn't make a distasteful racist joke, he said he was happy to leave South Africa because it was "full of blacks " and that he wanted to hit black people with his car. Using the "he was 19" excuse is an insult to young people everywhere who know that this language is totally unacceptable. How do you think Siya Kolisi would feel taking to the pitch with this guy? It's absolutely bonkers. I don't think it should end his career or anything, but he should be hit with the longest ban this kind of thing can incur.

Yeah_Right

errlloyd wrote: »

Very up for a discussion of cancel culture and how shifting societal norms create a minefield.

But, there are some despicable racist things in those messages. An 18 year old in a Christian country might have some messed up views about trans rights they can plead ignorance about when they're 26. But racism is objectively bad, and has been for a long time.

I don't know what the tweets say because I don't speak Spanish. I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for being young, stupid and ignorant. In the 80s and 90s there was a huge influx of south -east Asians into Auckland and there was plenty of racist jokes and comments going around the schoolyard (and no doubt many work places) at the time. I'm just thankful that there was no social media back then because who knows what stupid/awful ****e I would have posted.

Pudsy33

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I don't know what the tweets say because I don't speak Spanish. I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt for being young, stupid and ignorant. In the 80s and 90s there was a huge influx of south -east Asians into Auckland and there was plenty of racist jokes and comments going around the schoolyard (and no doubt many work places) at the time. I'm just thankful that there was no social media back then because who knows what stupid/awful ****e I would have posted.

You should probably find out what the tweets said.

Squidgy Black

There's a bit of a difference between distasteful jokes or insinuations, and just blatant racism saying you want to run over black people and how you're delighted to leave a country full of poor black people.

And then of course you have the other players who said things like "I'm not in favor of apartheid but we could start to set apart common buses from those in which there are negros listening to loud Cumbia" or "Plaza Oeste is full of ****ty negros. Why don't we play loud Cumbia and drop a bomb there? We'd solve a few problems. #nazi"

I think cancel culture can go a bit far some times and there's definitely a case for some form of leniency when stuff people said when they were younger gets dragged up, but that's just fúcking vile stuff.

Yeah_Right

Pudsy33 wrote: »

You should probably find out what the tweets said.

Can you translate for me? Thanks.

Yeah_Right

Squidgy Black wrote: »

There's a bit of a difference between distasteful jokes or insinuations, and just blatant racism saying you want to run over black people and how you're delighted to leave a country full of poor black people.

And then of course you have the other players who said things like "I'm not in favor of apartheid but we could start to set apart common buses from those in which there are negros listening to loud Cumbia" or "Plaza Oeste is full of ****ty negros. Why don't we play loud Cumbia and drop a bomb there? We'd solve a few problems. #nazi"

I think cancel culture can go a bit far some times and there's definitely a case for some form of leniency when stuff people said when they were younger gets dragged up, but that's just fúcking vile stuff.

That is horrible stuff. The thing is, I can't guarantee that I didn't say anything as bad when I was a teenager. Can you? In fact I'm pretty certain I did and possibly worse. Why? I was young, stupid and ignorant and wanting to look "cool" or "edgy" in front of my mates. Like I said earlier, glad there was no social media around then.

Pudsy33

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Can you translate for me? Thanks.

It was in my previous post, something akin to running black people over in his car.

irishbucsfan

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That is horrible stuff. The thing is, I can't guarantee that I didn't say anything as bad when I was a teenager. Can you? In fact I'm pretty certain I did and possibly worse. Why? I was young, stupid and ignorant and wanting to look "cool" or "edgy" in front of my mates. Like I said earlier, glad there was no social media around then.

You’re saying you can’t guarantee you didn’t call for the bombing of black communities as an adult?

I mean, I’m not a huge amount older than Matera but I can absolutely guarantee I never said any of this stuff, even to seem edgy. And these really don’t come across as edgy jokes amongst friends. These are just guys who publicly espoused violently racist views at that point in time.

Dog Botherer

Honestly shocked this is the first racial social media controversy involving Argentinian rugby players, given the history of the country.

Christy42

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That is horrible stuff. The thing is, I can't guarantee that I didn't say anything as bad when I was a teenager. Can you? In fact I'm pretty certain I did and possibly worse. Why? I was young, stupid and ignorant and wanting to look "cool" or "edgy" in front of my mates. Like I said earlier, glad there was no social media around then.

We should ban 19 year olds from international rugby. Or at least ensure they are fully shaparoned by a guardian when on trips abroad. Who knows what the young and stupid will do, they obviously can't be trusted to care for themselves.

Look either 19 is well old enough to know what you are about or it isn't. 19 is old enough to vote and drink and look after yourself. 19 is also old enough to have enough cop on to not put stupid crap on social media.

I had social media at 19 I can guarantee you can trawl through it and find nothing about running over members of any particular race in there.

19 is also old enough to take a bit of punishment when you messed up. No one is being executed. He loses the captaincy and gets suspended for a bit. It is not the end of the world.

Squidgy Black

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That is horrible stuff. The thing is, I can't guarantee that I didn't say anything as bad when I was a teenager. Can you? In fact I'm pretty certain I did and possibly worse. Why? I was young, stupid and ignorant and wanting to look "cool" or "edgy" in front of my mates. Like I said earlier, glad there was no social media around then.

I'm only a year or so younger than any of these lads. I can 100% guarantee you I wasn't publicly saying I wanted to run over black people when I was in college.

Dog Botherer

if you hear a faint “binging” on the wind today, you just might be hearing the sound of hundreds of thousands texts from agents screaming at players to clean their posting histories.

AbusesToilets

Quin_Dub wrote: »

At Pro Level?

Pretty much all the time , with the possible exception of a few "marquee" players on a team.

For example , if Ireland had lost Stander in the Georgia game in a similar incident under a new set of rules , would they really have been weakened by POM coming on instead?

Jokes about POM aside, yes we absolutely would be weakened for bringing POM on.