General Rugby Discussion II

So, disregarding the most important event in the match, what did people think of the rugby that was played?

I think the All Blacks did a lot better job of protecting the ball at the breakdown this time around. That seemed to give them the platform to build on.

Argentina were incredibly disciplined in defence, so it's not surprising that it was broken play that gave NZ most of their opportunities towards the end.

hahashake

I'm just glad Will Jordan finally got a proper debut. Serious talent.

Tristram

Captain_Crash wrote: »

You could almost forgive them had they missed it completely but having looked back on it and still thinking “yellow” beggars belief!

NH that's a red all day...

Captain_Crash

Tristram wrote: »

NH that's a red all day...

No question, even under the old interpretation it’s a red all day!

shootermacg

Basil3 wrote: »

So, disregarding the most important event in the match, what did people think of the rugby that was played?

I think the All Blacks did a lot better job of protecting the ball at the breakdown this time around. That seemed to give them the platform to build on.

Argentina were incredibly disciplined in defence, so it's not surprising that it was broken play that gave NZ most of their opportunities towards the end.

It's a very good question. I personally thing NZ MAY not currently beat teams like England or SA. The reason being, that NZ, for all their flair, still rely on their forwards gaining parity. They do not get this against the likes of SA or England.

It's a lot more difficult, under the current interpretations to be the attacking team. The defenders nearly always have the required numbers because they do not commit numbers to the ruck.

But because of the skillset of the NZ players all the previous advantages go out the window and it becomes 50:50. They're just too good in transition!

hahashake

Worth noting NZ won 23–13 in their last game v SA (pool stage in the 2019 RWC, making SA the first team to win the cup after losing a pool game). That being said, I see the current AB squad not being above their peers like the 2011-2015 squad was.

hahashake

hahashake wrote: »

Worth noting NZ won 23–13 in their last game v SA (pool stage in the 2019 RWC, making SA the first team to win the cup after losing a pool game). That being said, I see the current AB squad not being above their peers like the 2011-2015 squad was.

SA have only beaten NZ a couple of times in their last 20 attempts.

sydthebeat

The 50 / 22 and 22 / 50 can't come in soon enough in my opinion

aloooof

hahashake wrote: »

Worth noting NZ won 23–13 in their last game v SA (pool stage in the 2019 RWC, making SA the first team to win the cup after losing a pool game). That being said, I see the current AB squad not being above their peers like the 2011-2015 squad was.

Agreed, tbh. But then that NZ vintage of 2011 - 2015 was probably the best team to ever play the game so I think any team is going to come off unfavourably in comparison to them.

eclipsechaser

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Absolutely crazy that wasn't a red

Why do you reckon he didn't give a red?

I can only come up with the referee not being able to even countenance giving 2 red cards to the ABs in a month. I don't like that sort of thinking but I just don't see how a professional can watch that hit, decline to see another angle and then give a yellow without there being something seriously wrong with the system.

It's a terrible message to send out to junior players or parents considering whether to let their kids play rugby.

Captain_Crash

eclipsechaser wrote: »

Why do you reckon he didn't give a red?

I can only come up with the referee not being able to even countenance giving 2 red cards to the ABs in a month. I don't like that sort of thinking but I just don't see how a professional can watch that hit, decline to see another angle and then give a yellow without there being something seriously wrong with the system.

It's a terrible message to send out to junior players or parents considering whether to let their kids play rugby.

Having watched it again, the TMO even asks him is he sure before giving the card... the TMO knew it was the wrong call and tried to steer Berry, who was having none of it! Sometimes a wrong call is just that... a wrong call! Hopefully he learns from it!

aloooof

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Having watched it again, the TMO even asks him is he sure before giving the card... the TMO knew it was the wrong call and tried to steer Berry, who was having none of it! Sometimes a wrong call is just that... a wrong call! Hopefully he learns from it!

I’d agree tbh, don’t buy any of the AB’s conspiracy stuff. But there are degrees of wrong calls too. To my mind, this was as textbook a red as you could see.

I have sympathy for ref’s, it’s an incredibly tough job, but he’ll have to learn from it if he wants to keep refereeing at the international level.

eclipsechaser

aloooof wrote: »

I’d agree tbh, don’t buy any of the AB’s conspiracy stuff.

Do you really think the reaction he got for sending off an AB this month didn't have any impact on this weekend's decision? It could simply be a terrible miss but declining to see another angle just raises a flag with me.

eclipsechaser

eclipsechaser wrote: »

Do you really think the reaction he got for sending off an AB this month didn't have any impact on this weekend's decision? It could simply be a terrible miss but declining to see another angle just raises a flag with me.

It was the easiest red card in the world to give, as it had absolutely zero bearing on the match whether he gave a yellow or a red.

For this reason, any AB's supporter would prefer he gave a red, so then we don't have to listen to the same old crap about them being treated differently by refs. It's a shame, because it has completely taken away from an impressive performance.

I got a message from a workmate after the match with a tweet from BOD about how he's supposed to explain to his kid that a forearm to the head only deserves 10 mins. He may have been a great rugby player, but he's obviously a pathetic parent. I don't agree with his the use of his child to try to make a point about player welfare. It's very easy to tell a child that refs don't always make correct decisions, and direct head contact should be a straight red.

Yeah_Right

I suspect that because the match was over yellow or red didn't matter so he went with yellow. Wonder if he will be cited for it. Explaining it to your kid. FFS! Get a grip. Sometimes refs make mistakes. Its not like he picked him up and dropped him on his head

Good performance overall from the ABs. Very happy with that. Argentina are a good side. There were a couple of times the ABs cut them open and I was certain a try was coming but their scramble defense was fantastic.

Yeah_Right

eclipsechaser wrote: »

Do you really think the reaction he got for sending off an AB this month didn't have any impact on this weekend's decision? It could simply be a terrible miss but declining to see another angle just raises a flag with me.

What reaction did he get? All I heard was that it was a soft red but technically correct. Same with the Wallabies player.

OldRio

Basil3 wrote: »

I got a message from a workmate after the match with a tweet from BOD about how he's supposed to explain to his kid that a forearm to the head only deserves 10 mins. He may have been a great rugby player, but he's obviously a pathetic parent.

That last sentence is way out of order IMHO.

Burkie1203

Basil3 wrote: »

I got a message from a workmate after the match with a tweet from BOD about how he's supposed to explain to his kid that a forearm to the head only deserves 10 mins. He may have been a great rugby player, but he's obviously a pathetic parent.

Son- "dad can I play rugby"
Dad - "Son when they start protecting players heads properly you can"

That's not a pathetic parent. Its a human being concerned about a sports lack of ability to get basic safety laws implemented consistently by Match referees despite the availability of multiple TV camera angles.

Personally, I think you are a pathetic person for getting very personal about a former player wanting player welfare to be put first.

Burkie1203

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Son- "dad can I play rugby"
Dad - "Son when they start protecting players heads properly you can"

That's not a pathetic parent. Its a human being concerned about a sports lack of ability to get basic safety laws implemented consistently by Match referees despite the availability of multiple TV camera angles.

Personally, I think you are a pathetic person for getting very personal about a former player wanting player welfare to be put first.

Eh, no. That's not what he said. This is what he said:

https://twitter.com/BrianODriscoll/status/1332693477721825288

"Just catching up on the match from this morning & wondering how I’m meant to explain to my boy watching beside me that this only deserves 10 mins? Forearms to the head are not so bad??? FFS"

It's easy, Brian. You tell your kid the ref got it wrong, and it should have been a red card because direct contact to the head isn't allowed in rugby. It's simple.

I'm all for player welfare being put first, but I don't agree with him using the whole kid angle.

Burkie1203

Basil3 wrote: »

Eh, no. That's not what he said. This is what he said:

https://twitter.com/BrianODriscoll/status/1332693477721825288

"Just catching up on the match from this morning & wondering how I’m meant to explain to my boy watching beside me that this only deserves 10 mins? Forearms to the head are not so bad??? FFS"

It's easy, Brian. You tell your kid the ref got it wrong, and it should have been a red card because direct contact to the head isn't allowed in rugby. It's simple.

I'm all for player welfare being put first, but I don't agree with him using the whole kid angle.

I know what he said. I'm making the point that kids looking to play a sport will want to know why parents don't want them to.

Calling someone a pathetic parent for calling out poor decisions around player welfare, and we have seen quite a few poor decisions lately, is pathetic in itself.

Burkie1203

Burkie1203 wrote: »

I know what he said. I'm making the point that kids looking to play a sport will want to know why parents don't want them to.

Calling someone a pathetic parent for calling out poor decisions around player welfare, and we have seen quite a few poor decisions lately, is pathetic in itself.

I'm not calling him pathetic for calling out a poor decision, I'm calling him pathetic for not having the parenting skills to explain to his child that's it's not allowed and it should be a red. He's simply using his child as a prop.

FWIW one of my kids refuses to play rugby now because he saw Sean O'Brien punch Pape in 2015 and even though everyone saw it at the time, there was no punishment. Now he thinks that everyone can go around punching each other in rugby, and I don't know how to explain to him that's not the case.

/s

salmocab

Basil3 wrote: »

I'm not calling him pathetic for calling out a poor decision, I'm calling him pathetic for not having the parenting skills to explain to his child that's it's not allowed and it should be a red. He's simply using his child as a prop.

FWIW one of my kids refuses to play rugby now because he saw Sean O'Brien punch Pape in 2015 and even though everyone saw it at the time, there was no punishment. Now he thinks that everyone can go around punching each other in rugby, and I don't know how to explain to him that's not the case.

/s

Do the first paragraph and the second paragraph not have pretty much the same issue but in the first you say he has pathetic parenting skills and in the second you have the exact same issue but stop short of calling yourself a pathetic parent?

salmocab

salmocab wrote: »

Do the first paragraph and the second paragraph not have pretty much the same issue but in the first you say he has pathetic parenting skills and in the second you have the exact same issue but stop short of calling yourself a pathetic parent?

It was sarcasm.

hahashake

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_of_the_children

salmocab

Basil3 wrote: »

It was sarcasm.

Fair enough

eclipsechaser

Yeah_Right wrote: »

What reaction did he get? All I heard was that it was a soft red but technically correct. Same with the Wallabies player.

I was watching the game with the NZ commentators. They couldn't believe that their player got a red card and said that the referee was wrong. Check out the angle at 7 seconds in and it's a cast iron red card - absolutely nothing soft about taking a shoulder to the jaw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq2COd-8J7w

I was surprised that the commentators didn't know the rules of the game and thought that the pundits and past players would correct them at half-time. Not a chance! They all said it was an incorrect decision from the referee and basically complained that the game was going soft.

I'm not on social media much but it's not difficult to imagine that filtered to Nic Berry and he was very reluctant to do it a 2nd time. I know this will sound overly-dramatic for just one call from a referee, but I actually lost a chunk of respect for the game (/World Rugby) after this most recent decision. I love watching rugby for the skill. The big hits are impressive but I don't want to watch a game where people are getting struck with force to the head, with a real chance of lasting effects. If a professional referee can look at that incident multiple times in slow motion and not give a red, then the game isn't where it needs to be.

Yeah_Right

eclipsechaser wrote: »

I was watching the game with the NZ commentators. They couldn't believe that their player got a red card and said that the referee was wrong. Check out the angle at 7 seconds in and it's a cast iron red card - absolutely nothing soft about taking a shoulder to the jaw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq2COd-8J7w

I was surprised that the commentators didn't know the rules of the game and thought that the pundits and past players would correct them at half-time. Not a chance! They all said it was an incorrect decision from the referee and basically complained that the game was going soft.

I'm not on social media much but it's not difficult to imagine that filtered to Nic Berry and he was very reluctant to do it a 2nd time. I know this will sound overly-dramatic for just one call from a referee, but I actually lost a chunk of respect for the game (/World Rugby) after this most recent decision. I love watching rugby for the skill. The big hits are impressive but I don't want to watch a game where people are getting struck with force to the head, with a real chance of lasting effects. If a professional referee can look at that incident multiple times in slow motion and not give a red, then the game isn't where it needs to be.

Can't remember who was commentating when I watched it. It was on Sky and they sometimes have the kiwi commentary and sometimes the Aussie. What I remember hearing and what I heard/read was that most people thought it could have been a yellow as there was a bit of a drop in the ball carrier's height. Same with the Swinton one on Whitelock.

The way I see it, I would rather watch 15 v 15. Obviously there has to be sanctions for dirty play or reckless play that endangers another player. Those were dynamic situations, they were trying to make a big tackle and got it slightly wrong. Yellow card would have been a suitable punishment. The Lomax incident at the weekend was a straight red.

The theory that any re-action to having issued a red card to the ABs a couple of weeks ago had any bearing on his decision making just doesn't hold water for me. If that is true, he should look for a new line of work.

Dog Botherer

more like Tyrel HIGH-max amirite lads

hahashake

Rugby Union is very much in the orbit of Rugby League in Australia (and NZ is in the orbit of Australia), so a lot of the time when commentators/fans/pundits call a refs call soft in Union, it's because they have seen the same type of actions barely get a mention or even praised in League.

Obviously this is wrong as Union should aim to be the leader in player welfare, but this lens of viewing the game is very prevalent. It doesn't look good for the game when commentators are calling a refs call soft but in their mind they are subconsciously or even consciously trying to protect the image of the game in a misguided way.

Burkie1203

Basil3 wrote: »

I'm not calling him pathetic for calling out a poor decision, I'm calling him pathetic for not having the parenting skills to explain to his child that's it's not allowed and it should be a red. He's simply using his child as a prop.

FWIW one of my kids refuses to play rugby now because he saw Sean O'Brien punch Pape in 2015 and even though everyone saw it at the time, there was no punishment. Now he thinks that everyone can go around punching each other in rugby, and I don't know how to explain to him that's not the case.

/s

But BOD or any other parent should not have to explain that to their children. That's the problem here.

These are the very best players in the world, in one of the biggest international competitions, with supposedly the best match officials backed up by multiple TV camera angles to support their decision making. Too often the decisions are wrong.

Too often referees take the easy way out for fear of being accused of "ruining the game" by loud mouth pundits who just want to be controversial.