General Rugby Discussion II

jacothelad

blackwhite wrote: »

What exactly is the difference in tax rates for employees v self employed in the UK??

The rates are simply based on levels of earnings. It doesn't matter which category you fall into. A self employed person declaring an income of £50,000 would pay exactly the same tax as an employee earning £50,000. However.....

Employees have very little scope to reduce their tax liabilities. Self employed people have many opportunities to reduce the amount of tax they pay...e.g. claiming for the cost of running a vehicle, travel, accommodation, essential clothing, tools etc.
Self employed with good accountants pay a lot less tax via tax avoidance schemes as well as more usual ways. A self employed person declaring £50,000 may have earned and benefited from substantially more.

blackwhite

jacothelad wrote: »

The rates are simply based on levels of earnings. It doesn't matter which category you fall into. A self employed person declaring an income of £50,000 would pay exactly the same tax as an employee earning £50,000. However.....

Employees have very little scope to reduce their tax liabilities. Self employed people have many opportunities to reduce the amount of tax they pay...e.g. claiming for the cost of running a vehicle, travel, accommodation, essential clothing, tools etc.
Self employed with good accountants pay a lot less tax via tax avoidance schemes as well as more usual ways. A self employed person declaring £50,000 may have earned and benefited from substantially more.

That’s exactly my point - read the post I was quoting

We had someone claiming that the players would have huge tax bills because they were self-employed

Eod100

Good overview of where rugby competitions are at now but short version is nobody knows how they will finish yet.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rugby-in-wait-and-see-mode-as-officials-weigh-up-options-39195312.html

Richie_Rich89

OldRio wrote: »

Sorry but I can't agree that having more meaningful games would not increase attendances. A British and Irish league or conference has to be the way to go.
Conferences set up like the NFL is surely worth examining.

Whatever happens post COVID-19 (Whenever that is) things cannot remain the same.The money is simply not there.
If ever there was a time for joined up thinking, it is now.

Don't know how jumping into bed with a league where 11 out of 12 clubs are running at a loss improves the finances side of things.

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Have a fair bit of spare time with this lockdown so I gave what I’d like to see happen a go and what I think is most feasible. Obviously going to be impossible to keep everyone happy.


Northern Hemisphere Club Game:

40 teams (5 Conferences of 8 Teams)

3 British/Irish Zones and 2 French/Italy Zones

14 teams in France
2 teams in Italy
4 teams in Ireland
4 teams in Wales
2 teams in Scotland
And arguably 13 teams in England

That’s 39 teams. Try and develop one more team - either someone like Leeds, Ealing or one on the Scottish Borders. Or potentially a Spanish/Georgian team. Then that’s 40 teams.

Play each team in your conference home and away. Top in each zone, as well as best 3 runners-up go into seeded finals, similar to what we have currently in H-Cup.

Bottom in each of the French/Italy conference are relegated to the ProD2. With 2 teams from there brought up.

There’d obviously be some controversy with English Championship sides and it being closed off but realistically none of the sides at present or in the last 10 years (bar London Welsh) have been promoted.

That’s 14 Conference Games + 3 potential finals games.


Southern Hemisphere Club Game:

18 teams (3 Conferences of 6 Teams)

1 SA/Argentina Zone + 2 NZ/Oz/Japan Zones

2 Argentina Teams
4 South African
5 NZ
4 Oz
3 Japan

Same as Northern Hem. Play each team in your conference home and away. Top 2 plus best 2 3rd place teams into seeded finals.

I’m not sure what the intricacies of the Japanese Top League are but taking into consideration their playing pool, emergence of their national team, interest and financial situation they should be able to produce 3 quality pro sides that would be competitive in the NZ/OZ conferences. They’d be able to attract the best of the rest of the top teams as there’ll be smaller squads.

That’s 10 Conference Games + 3 potential finals games.

Slightly shorter then NH, but when you factor in the Mitre Cup and Currie Cup there will be more games for SH players.

-

Play first home/away Conference fixtures in 8 week block at start of February (30/31 Jan 2021)

1 Week Break (27/28 March 2021)

6 Week International Block
6 Nations/Rugby Championship - bring in Japan & Fiji + promotion/relegation with competition involving Samoa, Tonga, US, Canada, Uruguay, Russia
(Also play Mitre/Currie Cup fixtures)
(Ends 8/9 May 2021)

1 Week Break (15/16 May 2021)

Second 8 week club block (10/11 July 2021)

1 Week Break (17/18 July 2021)

3 Week Block of Zone Finals (7/8 August 2021)

1 Week Break (14/15 August 2021)

9 Week Block for World Cup/Lions Tour/Potential Nations Tournament or International Club Tournament every 4 years. (> 16/17 October 2021)

-


That gives players 10/11 weeks off & 5/6 weeks pre season.

Aligns both hemispheres with both given equal advantage when coming into WC.

Puts Lions Tours slightly later in the year coming into the Southern Hemispheres Summer, so better conditions.

Obviously this would mean the end of the Heineken Cup which pretty much everyone on here will not want to accept. But it would add importance to your conference fixtures and the knockout style finishes. I did contemplate adding a H-Cup style tournament but I’m not sure where you would squeeze in the 8 game weeks needed.

With less club games there will be no need for larger squads, which will mean the talent will need to be spread more evenly. Making other teams more competitive and stronger. For example, a good Leinster/Munster club player on the fringes would add much more to say the border Scottish team I mentioned or one of the Japanese clubs. Just an example.

If you listen to any current player they think there is too many games, currently around 34/35 games for some players. Here, the most games any player can play is 29.

You could package the TV rights in 2 parts. First half of the season and then second half of the season. With 6 Nations/RC in first half of season both parts carry pretty much equal measure unless it’s a WC or Lions year.

Have probably missed something blindingly obvious but open to criticism.

Would reducing the number of games affect Ireland's ability to generate depth in the playing pool? My feeling would be that with only four teams feeding the national team, there need to be games for the 2nd and 3rd choice players at the provinces to play so enough players are being developed for Ireland.

Also, there's so much history around the the French league and the Bouclier is so prized that it's difficult to see a future where French teams move away from just domestic competition.

OldRio

Richie_Rich89 wrote: »

Don't know how jumping into bed with a league where 11 out of 12 clubs are running at a loss improves the finances side .

We are discussing the Global game. The discussion on 'State of the Nation' podcast was about the possible future of the entire game. Hence Rugby Lads post.

Yeah_Right

A couple of my mates have started a podcast. I really enjoyed it because they're from my home town but I thought some of you lads might like it. If you have an hour or so to kill.
https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/the-nxt-level-sport-podcast/id1512326467

jacothelad

Yeah_Right wrote: »

A couple of my mates have started a podcast. I really enjoyed it because they're from my home town but I thought some of you lads might like it. If you have an hour or so to kill.
https://podcasts.apple.com/nz/podcast/the-nxt-level-sport-podcast/id1512326467

Is it in English?...:D:D:D:D

sydthebeat

Luke Jones and kurtley beale off to racing92.

Clegg

sydthebeat wrote: »

Luke Jones and kurtley beale off to racing92.

Beale is a player who has always frustrated me. As gifted a player as you could wish for, but has never fully excelled to a consistent world class level. Also makes me wonder about Zebo's spot in the side. Beale can play 12 or 15 to a high level.

molloyjh

thomond2006 wrote: »

I agree, my point was the chance of radical change is IMO zero over the next few years. Consolidation will the main aim. You might call expansion what others would call overstretching.

The most interesting thing about this is the difference between the number of teams and games between the hemispheres. A point that rarely seems to get talked about.

The NH has 38 top level club teams playing in the region of 30-35 games per year. The SH has 15 top level teams playing in the region of 15-20. Add to that the geographical issues that the SH sides face vs the NH sides and it's easy to see why their game doesn't draw in as much revenue as the NH, which is in itself still not financially secure on the whole.

Trying to identify where to take the game means identifying what the issues are. And for me issue number 1 is the SH. If that continues to struggle then it will inevitably have an effect on the national sides there which would be bad for all of us. But how do you fix that? By timezone the difference only becomes more stark when you group Europe & SA together. Plus the majority of the SH revenue comes from SA anyway. So taking that revenue away from NZ and Aus would cripple them unless it could be replaced. Could Japan provide that kind of revenue?

I'd agree that we need to consolidate before we look to expand. If the tier 1 countries are on shaky ground there's simply no way we can effectively expand the game IMO.

sydthebeat

Nehe milner scudder joins the Highlanders for super rugby aotearoa.

Nice one!!

Eod100

Gerry Thornley has bit about how season could end:

''As things stand, pending confirmation that the July tours will be called off, there remains the hope that the Guinness Pro14 might yet be able to resume in August with two rounds of regional matches, including interpros, potentially behind closed doors, before semi-finals and a final in September.

This would be a precursor to playing Test matches in October/November, but as always there are plenty of moving parts to these optimistic timelines.''

No mention of Champions Cup. Not sure how it will be possible to play so many games without losing the November series or without it impacting the new season.


https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/irfu-say-provincial-training-won-t-resume-on-may-18th-1.4250741

sydthebeat

molloyjh wrote: »

The most interesting thing about this is the difference between the number of teams and games between the hemispheres. A point that rarely seems to get talked about.

The NH has 38 top level club teams playing in the region of 30-35 games per year. The SH has 15 top level teams playing in the region of 15-20. Add to that the geographical issues that the SH sides face vs the NH sides and it's easy to see why their game doesn't draw in as much revenue as the NH, which is in itself still not financially secure on the whole..

If you add the japanese top league then the SH has 31 teams, from which a lot of sanzaar players play games.

prawnsambo

World Rugby have announced that tries may no longer be scored against the post unless the ball is also touching the goal line.

Probably fair. Was becoming an indefensible situation.

Squidgy Black

prawnsambo wrote: »

World Rugby have announced that tries may no longer be scored against the post unless the ball is also touching the goal line.

Probably fair. Was becoming an indefensible situation.

Was always a bit of a strange one, never really made sense considering you were deemed offside if you weren't on the line but the pad nowadays sticks out about half a foot.

Captain_Crash

prawnsambo wrote: »

World Rugby have announced that tries may no longer be scored against the post unless the ball is also touching the goal line.

Probably fair. Was becoming an indefensible situation.

That's fair yeah, but in saying that... if the balls touching the goal line, its a try anyway!

Buer

Clegg wrote: »

Beale is a player who has always frustrated me. As gifted a player as you could wish for, but has never fully excelled to a consistent world class level. Also makes me wonder about Zebo's spot in the side. Beale can play 12 or 15 to a high level.

Zebo signed a new deal. He's fine for the time being but he wasn't a guaranteed starter anyway. I'd expect him to get 15+ starts next season if he's fit.

Brice Dulin (full back) and Ben Volavola (outhalf/utility back) are both leaving which should make enough room for Beale somewhere.

Quin_Dub

prawnsambo wrote: »

World Rugby have announced that tries may no longer be scored against the post unless the ball is also touching the goal line.

Probably fair. Was becoming an indefensible situation.

So by "line" here do they mean the actual whitewash or the notional plane of the line through which the base of the post passes?

Clearly with a massive pad in the way you probably can't reach said plane from the front of the post though.

So does that mean that we might now have an attacker rather than a defender lifting the pad so they can get to the bottom of the post at the ruck??

prawnsambo

Quin_Dub wrote: »

So by "line" here do they mean the actual whitewash or the notional plane of the line through which the base of the post passes?

Clearly with a massive pad in the way you probably can't reach said plane from the front of the post though.

So does that mean that we might now have an attacker rather than a defender lifting the pad so they can get to the bottom of the post at the ruck??

Afaik, lifting the post protector is not allowed as it's a safety measure. It was mentioned as one of the reasons for the change in the law.

awec

It was a scenario that was pretty much impossible to defend without being offside, so it's probably a good change.

molloyjh

sydthebeat wrote: »

If you add the japanese top league then the SH has 31 teams, from which a lot of sanzaar players play games.

The standard of that league is nowhere near where it would need to be. Its probably more akin to Mitre 10 than Super Rugby.

I cant get away from the fact that a major reshuffle is needed in the Southern Hemisphere though. There simply are not enough teams playing enough games at the right level to make it sustainable. There are just 6 teams in SA, with a population of around 58m. That's almost 10 times that of Ireland, with just 1.5 times the number of pro teams. The same with Australia. They have 4-5 times our population and the same number of top tier teams. These countries are simply not making the most of their resources. And as long as that's the case they'll struggle to manage financially.

How much would you be willing to pay to watch half the amount of rugby you do at the moment? In season tickets and tv subs? With less exposure, sponsorship revenues will be lower too.

For a country like NZ for example, they essentially have 3 main rugby outlets. The national team, Super Rugby and Mitre 10. Yet, like the Currie Cup in SA and the NRC in Aus, the Mitre 10 is played at the same time as the RC. Quite who thinks thats a good idea I dont know. The weakest of the 3 competitions in direct conflict with the strongest. It's crazy. So the next best avenue for revenue is hamstrung from the get-go. Its madness.

The SH needs more games. Quite how that's done is a tough one. But Super Rugby is too geographically spread & complicated enough as it is so it isnt a case of simply increasing the games there. Some way of developing the domestic games in the SH countries that then feeds into Super Rugby like our leagues feed into the HEC is the most obvious place to start looking. But I've no idea how something like that could even be structured.

Maybe bring Japan into it more and have them restructure their league so that it could put out teams that can compete in SR? Them combine NZ and Aus into another league which also feeds SR. Then look at restructuring the SA sides to combine the SR and Currie Cup teams into a single 14 team league that also feeds SR. The problem here is that money would be centralised into SA and Japan I'd imagine. I'm not sure where that would leave NZ and Aus financially. But maybe more games against a fairly traditional rival might grow the interest in Australia?

The Lost Sheep

molloyjh wrote: »

The standard of that league is nowhere near where it would need to be. Its probably more akin to Mitre 10 than Super Rugby.

I cant get away from the fact that a major reshuffle is needed in the Southern Hemisphere though. There simply are not enough teams playing enough games at the right level to make it sustainable. There are just 6 teams in SA, with a population of around 58m. That's almost 10 times that of Ireland, with just 1.5 times the number of pro teams. The same with Australia. They have 4-5 times our population and the same number of top tier teams. These countries are simply not making the most of their resources. And as long as that's the case they'll struggle to manage financially.

How much would you be willing to pay to watch half the amount of rugby you do at the moment? In season tickets and tv subs? With less exposure, sponsorship revenues will be lower too.

For a country like NZ for example, they essentially have 3 main rugby outlets. The national team, Super Rugby and Mitre 10. Yet, like the Currie Cup in SA and the NRC in Aus, the Mitre 10 is played at the same time as the RC. Quite who thinks thats a good idea I dont know. The weakest of the 3 competitions in direct conflict with the strongest. It's crazy. So the next best avenue for revenue is hamstrung from the get-go. Its madness.

The SH needs more games. Quite how that's done is a tough one. But Super Rugby is too geographically spread & complicated enough as it is so it isnt a case of simply increasing the games there. Some way of developing the domestic games in the SH countries that then feeds into Super Rugby like our leagues feed into the HEC is the most obvious place to start looking. But I've no idea how something like that could even be structured.

Maybe bring Japan into it more and have them restructure their league so that it could put out teams that can compete in SR? Them combine NZ and Aus into another league which also feeds SR. Then look at restructuring the SA sides to combine the SR and Currie Cup teams into a single 14 team league that also feeds SR. The problem here is that money would be centralised into SA and Japan I'd imagine. I'm not sure where that would leave NZ and Aus financially. But maybe more games against a fairly traditional rival might grow the interest in Australia?

that doesnt do anything for finances of a lot of countries though.
There isnt really just 6 teams in south Africa. Theyve 14 and the 6 super sides are the best players from these.
Saying Aussies just aren't making the best of their resources is true to an extent but Aussies are just struggling to keep youngsters playing. Many stop playing union and prefer to play afl, nrl, soccer and fans aren't supporting union either.
You cant compare our leagues and European cups to super rugby and mitre cup/Currie cup. It's completely different.

CrabRevolution

I'm curious where the idea Japan could field 3 competitive teams against Aus/NZ teams comes from. With 1 team competing they've come last in Super Rugby 3 years out of 4, with 2nd last being their highest finish, and are scheduled to be quitting the league entirely after this season.

Podge_irl

To be fair, they are not scheduled to be quitting, they are scheduled to be kicked out.

molloyjh

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

that doesnt do anything for finances of a lot of countries though.
There isnt really just 6 teams in south Africa. Theyve 14 and the 6 super sides are the best players from these.
Saying Aussies just aren't making the best of their resources is true to an extent but Aussies are just struggling to keep youngsters playing. Many stop playing union and prefer to play afl, nrl, soccer and fans aren't supporting union either.
You cant compare our leagues and European cups to super rugby and mitre cup/Currie cup. It's completely different.

I'm not trying to compare competitions. I'm simply saying that when you look at the number of games and the structure of them it's hard to see how they could possibly make money. They simply dont play enough. 15 SR games plus KOs & a domestic league that's running alongside the RC for around 8 weeks is not enough to sustain the game. Maybe more games with a greater focus on geographically smaller zones might help spark more interest in the likes of Aus in particular.

sydthebeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

Nehe milner scudder joins the Highlanders for super rugby aotearoa.

Nice one!!

And the icing on the cake, looks like our accountant is on his way back too!!

https://www.ultimaterugby.com/news/ben-smith-set-to-follow-nehe-milner-skudder-in-signing-for-the-highlanders-for-super-rugby-aotearoa/627157

blackwhite

Looks like Pichot is throwing his toys out of the pram after failing to get the top job.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/agustin-pichot-world-rugby-election-quits-a9511566.html


If he was truly driven by a desire to improve rugby globally then he'd know that you'll make more of a difference inside the tent, than outside p*ssing in.

Looks very much like he wanted it exactly his way, or not at all

prawnsambo

blackwhite wrote: »

Looks like Pichot is throwing his toys out of the pram after failing to get the top job.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/agustin-pichot-world-rugby-election-quits-a9511566.html

If he was truly driven by a desire to improve rugby globally then he'd know that you'll make more of a difference inside the tent, than outside p*ssing in.

Looks very much like he wanted it exactly his way, or not at all

Yeah, He always seemed to me to be dogmatic in his views. When you're standing on a platform for change, you need to bring people with you and you won't do that by sticking to what could be characterised by "my way or the highway".

Yeah_Right

molloyjh wrote: »

The standard of that league is nowhere near where it would need to be. Its probably more akin to Mitre 10 than Super Rugby.

I cant get away from the fact that a major reshuffle is needed in the Southern Hemisphere though. There simply are not enough teams playing enough games at the right level to make it sustainable. There are just 6 teams in SA, with a population of around 58m. That's almost 10 times that of Ireland, with just 1.5 times the number of pro teams. The same with Australia. They have 4-5 times our population and the same number of top tier teams. These countries are simply not making the most of their resources. And as long as that's the case they'll struggle to manage financially.

How much would you be willing to pay to watch half the amount of rugby you do at the moment? In season tickets and tv subs? With less exposure, sponsorship revenues will be lower too.

For a country like NZ for example, they essentially have 3 main rugby outlets. The national team, Super Rugby and Mitre 10. Yet, like the Currie Cup in SA and the NRC in Aus, the Mitre 10 is played at the same time as the RC. Quite who thinks thats a good idea I dont know. The weakest of the 3 competitions in direct conflict with the strongest. It's crazy. So the next best avenue for revenue is hamstrung from the get-go. Its madness.

The SH needs more games. Quite how that's done is a tough one. But Super Rugby is too geographically spread & complicated enough as it is so it isnt a case of simply increasing the games there. Some way of developing the domestic games in the SH countries that then feeds into Super Rugby like our leagues feed into the HEC is the most obvious place to start looking. But I've no idea how something like that could even be structured.

Maybe bring Japan into it more and have them restructure their league so that it could put out teams that can compete in SR? Them combine NZ and Aus into another league which also feeds SR. Then look at restructuring the SA sides to combine the SR and Currie Cup teams into a single 14 team league that also feeds SR. The problem here is that money would be centralised into SA and Japan I'd imagine. I'm not sure where that would leave NZ and Aus financially. But maybe more games against a fairly traditional rival might grow the interest in Australia?

One of the big issues in NZ is that there are large numbers of fans and administrators who want to hold on to tradition. Its long been lamented that All Blacks and SR players no longer play for their local clubs and that ABs don't really play NPC. There's obviously exceptions when players need some match fitness but it is rare. These local clubs and the NPC were the foundations that the ABs were built on throughout the amateur era and there are a lot of people that don't want to let go of that. And I get it. I still remember watching the likes of Blair Larsen, Eric Rush and Glen Osborne running out for Takapuna in the mid to late 90s and then chatting with them in bar afterwards.

The SR franchises were set up to save the NPC teams. Before Super Rugby*, there was the South Pacific Championship (1980s). It involved Auckland, Canterbury, Wellington, Fiji, Queensland and NSW. The other NPC teams said it was unfair that Auckland, Wellington and Canterbury got a fantastic pre-season and they didn't. In the early 90s North Harbour, Otago, Waikato and maybe someone else set up a pre-season comp involving another PI side, maybe Canada.

These 2 comps were merged into one in 1993 (irc) and South African Curry Cup sides were included. This was the Super 10. The 4 NZ representatives were the top sides from the previous year's NPC. This stopped the strong teams from becoming absolute powerhouses by attracting all the best players and sponsorship. NPC was still the main focus.

Then the game went pro. There was a lot of bitter fighting in NZ between people who wanted to keep the NPC teams and have them represent NZ in the Super 12 and those pushing for the franchises. I wanted the NPC teams to stay because I was a North Harbour fan. I didn't want to merge with anyone else!! It was sold to us that they players would play SR but they would back at their provinces for the NPC season (the REAL comp) later in the year. As SR grew, NPC faded.

This is the problem they have in NZ. People clinging to traditions and looking at the amateur days with rose-tinted glasses, ignoring the reality of professional sport. The same sort of morons that scuppered the waterfront stadium in Auckland in favour of re-developing the dinosaur that is Eden Park.

NZ Rugby is in trouble financially. Part of me wants them to say **** off to Super Rugby and just go back to having the best domestic competition in the world. The problem is, there's no money in that and all the top players would end up in Europe and Japan even earlier in their careers than they already do. I don't know what the answer is.


* This history was all done from memory so it might not be 100% accurate. Its been 30 odd years, a lot of alcohol and weed and a few concussions over that time

rudiger2.0

prawnsambo wrote: »

World Rugby have announced that tries may no longer be scored against the post unless the ball is also touching the goal line.

Probably fair. Was becoming an indefensible situation.

I've never understood why they don't change the goalposts to NFL style ones with one post on the ground which is behind the try-line and bends forward.