General Rugby Discussion II

Dave_The_Sheep

It would be really really satisfying to see Saracens have to shed players and for their appeal to fail miserably. While relegation is too good to hope for, a year without Europe for them will have to do - assuming they don't win it this year (be surprised if they're not at least top 4).

I'd be raging if I was an Exeter fan (I'm pissed off enough as a Leinster fan). Hopefully some of the other clubs make good on their word and go after them for damages.

Former Former

Seems like an incredibly harsh punishment but if you want to lay down a marker to deter future infringements then this is how you do it.

Fair play to them.

Podge_irl

They cheated for three seasons. It is not a harsh punishment.

joseywhales

is_that_so wrote: »

That sounds more like a morketing pitch!

Sarcasm/marketing pitch, six of one...

Squidgy Black

Could end up being a similar situation to Melbourne Storm who were stripped of their titles for breaching the NRL salary cap

Dave_The_Sheep

From the subreddit. Amused me.

jacothelad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So they lasted a grand total of 4-5 hours before they buckled

Former Former wrote: »

Seems like an incredibly harsh punishment but if you want to lay down a marker to deter future infringements then this is how you do it.

Fair play to them.

Sarries have been playing fast and loose with the rules for years. They have been let off before. They are basically running a bankrupt club. I fully expect their appeal will be favourably viewed and they will get a nice letter of warning not to be naughty again or they will have their end of year cocoa allowance halved.

Shefwedfan

jacothelad wrote: »

Sarries have been playing fast and loose with the rules for years. They have been let off before. They are basically running a bankrupt club. I fully expect their appeal will be favourably viewed and they will get a nice letter of warning not to be naughty again or they will have their end of year cocoa allowance halved.

Exactly, they got a review done in 2015 and they where at the same stuff and nothing happened

The new fine and points is only since 2015 because of the other review. The premiership make a big statement, drop them down the table all in the knowledge they would appeal and now have just reversed and stuck them back in original position

Saracens will appeal, it will go on for a while and then at end of season they will say, ahh sure give us 5 millions and off you go....

Fast forward to 3 years time and they will do the same again and maybe get10 mil out of them this time

It’s says on bbc that Saracens would have been fully aware during the 9 months process and could appeal during that if evidence is not correct, so really they should not be able to appeal now....but funny enough they can now

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It’s says on bbc that Saracens would have been fully aware during the 9 months process and could appeal during that if evidence is not correct, so really they should not be able to appeal now....but funny enough they can now

They can appeal the decision making behind the sanction.

Blanchguy

molloyjh wrote: »

Along those lines or exactly that? Because along those lines could be "I don't think I've ever played with or against someone who has doped" which would be very different from "I've never played with or against someone who has doped". I'm not trying to be a dick about this, but it is an important distinction given how we are talking about it.

Question:- Do you ever think you were playing against players who might be using?
JH - No.......In my opinion I've never come up against a player who has been doping.

Where does that fit into your framework?

At the very least I think it makes him unfit to be on the World Rugby anti doping advisory committee.

Squidgy Black

Blanchguy wrote: »

Question:- Do you ever think you were playing against players who might be using?
JH - No.......In my opinion I've never come up against a player who has been doping.

Where does that fit into your framework?

At the very least I think it makes him unfit to be on the World Rugby anti doping advisory committee.

What's the source for this? Where did he say it?

Interested Observer

Squidgy Black wrote: »

What's the source for this? Where did he say it?

Believe it was on Second Captains.

sydthebeat

countries with outgoing coaches after RWC 2019:

Ireland
New Zealand
Wales
Australia
France
Italy
South Africa

id also expect Japan to be making an announcement as well.

thats a very big change within the whole hierarchy of rugby.

interesting times ahead

Cookiemunster

jacothelad wrote: »

Sarries have been playing fast and loose with the rules for years. They have been let off before. They are basically running a bankrupt club. I fully expect their appeal will be favourably viewed and they will get a nice letter of warning not to be naughty again or they will have their end of year cocoa allowance halved.

They can ask for a review of the independent panels decision, but the can't actually appeal. https://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/premiership-rugby-statement-decision-on-salary-cap-charges

The review can only be on the basis that there has been an error of law, the decision is irrational or that there has been some procedural unfairness.

And seeing who was on the panel, I doubt there'll be much change on those grounds.

The Independent Panel -which conducted a hearing over five days in September and October 2019 - was chaired by the Rt. Hon. Lord Dyson, who was joined on the panel by Aidan Robertson QC and Jeremy Summers. Lord Dyson was Master of the Rolls (President of the Court of Appeal of England and Wales and Head of Civil Justice) for four years until he retired in October 2016. He was a Justice of the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom from April 2010 until October 2012.

Podge_irl

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Exactly, they got a review done in 2015 and they where at the same stuff and nothing happened

The new fine and points is only since 2015 because of the other review. The premiership make a big statement, drop them down the table all in the knowledge they would appeal and now have just reversed and stuck them back in original position

Christ. They are following their own, clearly explained and written down rules. Penalties are suspended until the completion of a review. This is bog standard stuff.

I fully expect the review to fail given the bar for success seems to be set incredibly high.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

Christ. They are following their own, clearly explained and written down rules. Penalties are suspended until the completion of a review. This is bog standard stuff.

I fully expect the review to fail given the bar for success seems to be set incredibly high.

You're replying to someone who said Hagibis was a myth invented by the media for headlines!

Sir Guy who smiles

Shefwedfan wrote: »

All the provinces have central contracted player....

Saracens don't.
He wasn't comparing Leinster to other Irish provinces, he was comparing them to Saracens.

ScrubsfanChris

Now looks like EPCR are investigating why Sarancens representatives haven't shown up in Cardiff for the Champions Cup press launch, something I assume would be a contractual obligation.

Just making it worse for themselves now.

Sir Guy who smiles

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

It would be really really satisfying to see Saracens have to shed players and for their appeal to fail miserably. While relegation is too good to hope for, a year without Europe for them will have to do - assuming they don't win it this year (be surprised if they're not at least top 4).

I'd be raging if I was an Exeter fan (I'm pissed off enough as a Leinster fan). Hopefully some of the other clubs make good on their word and go after them for damages.

Agree; Exeter have more right to be annoyed than anyone.

Interested Observer

I don't really see how this has anything to do with Leinster tbh. There's no salary cap applicable to the European Cup. I see the Exeter owner or chairman or some high-up said he thought the punishment wasn't severe enough and that they should be relegated. I think he's probably right.

DelBoy Trotter

ScrubsfanChris wrote: »

Now looks like EPCR are investigating why Sarancens representatives haven't shown up in Cardiff for the Champions Cup press launch, something I assume would be a contractual obligation.

Just making it worse for themselves now.

From what I understand, they will be getting a fine for not turning up this morning. It'll be a drop in the ocean compared to yesterdays fine

Captain_Crash

Reading a great thread on twitter this morning about the review that's been requested and how it could snooker Saracens.

Basically, because Saracens are appealing they are refuting the outcome of the investigation. This means they believe the contracts they have in place to be legit and not foul of any regulations. Because of this, they cant renege on them and have to continue paying the players as contracted. If they win the appeal its a moot point of course, but if as expected the ruling is upheld, they will almost certainly fallen foul of this years cap also resulting in more fines and likely another pts deduction.

Here is his handle @timoconnorbl

Quin_Dub

Interested Observer wrote: »

I don't really see how this has anything to do with Leinster tbh. There's no salary cap applicable to the European Cup. I see the Exeter owner or chairman or some high-up said he thought the punishment wasn't severe enough and that they should be relegated. I think he's probably right.

Well , for one thing , Saracens wouldn't have been in Europe for the last 3 seasons is the current penalties were applied.

And even though there isn't a Salary cap in Europe. They can only play in Europe with the squad they have , so if their domestic squad is there as a result of dodgy dealing then their European squad is by extension, also dodgy.

Interested Observer

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Well , for one thing , Saracens wouldn't have been in Europe for the last 3 seasons is the current penalties were applied.

And even though there isn't a Salary cap in Europe. They can only play in Europe with the squad they have , so if their domestic squad is there as a result of dodgy dealing then their European squad is by extension, also dodgy.

To me one thing doesn't follow the other tbh. Leinster just have to play whatever is put up against them in Europe. That's it really imo.

Quin_Dub

Interested Observer wrote: »

To me one thing doesn't follow the other tbh. Leinster just have to play whatever is put up against them in Europe. That's it really imo.

But if Saracens only have a team full of B&I Lions and other internationals because they broke the rules of their domestic competition , then Leinster and anyone else beaten by them in any competition have a right to feel hard done by.

Seriously - Pick any 3 or 4 of the best players from the Saracens starting team and remove them from the squad to bring them back under the rules.

Are Saracens still beating Leinster , Munster , Exeter , Racing or any other team that lost a knock-out game to them over the last 3 years?

Maybe , maybe not - But it's still reasonable to be ticked off about it.

Podge_irl

Quin_Dub wrote: »

But if Saracens only have a team full of B&I Lions and other internationals because they broke the rules of their domestic competition , then Leinster and anyone else beaten by them in any competition have a right to feel hard done by.

Why? Leinster have a team of B&I Lions and don’t ever have to worry about the same rules in the first place.

Quin_Dub

Quin_Dub wrote: »

But if Saracens only have a team full of B&I Lions and other internationals because they broke the rules of their domestic competition , then Leinster and anyone else beaten by them in any competition have a right to feel hard done by.

Seriously - Pick any 3 or 4 of the best players from the Saracens starting team and remove them from the squad to bring them back under the rules.

Are Saracens still beating Leinster , Munster , Exeter , Racing or any other team that lost a knock-out game to them over the last 3 years?

Maybe , maybe not - But it's still reasonable to be ticked off about it.

I don't think their breaking of a threshold set by their domestic league has any bearing on their performances in Europe.

As a Leinster fan I wouldnt discount their European wins at all.

Quin_Dub

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why? Leinster have a team of B&I Lions and don’t ever have to worry about the same rules in the first place.

The point is that in order to qualify for Europe they have to finish in the Top 6 in their domestic Competition.

They achieved that by breaking the rules of that competition so their participation in Europe is tainted as a result.

The fact that the rules are different in the 3 qualifying competitions is irreverent.

Podge_irl

Quin_Dub wrote: »

The point is that in order to qualify for Europe they have to finish in the Top 6 in their domestic Competition.

They achieved that by breaking the rules of that competition so their participation in Europe is tainted as a result.

The fact that the rules are different in the 3 qualifying competitions is irreverent.

Well I don't particularly think they would have struggled to get in top 6 regardless, but nonetheless I also don't think it does taint anything in Europe. Otherwise you could consider the Irish wins tainted on the basis that the English teams were operating under a constraint that we weren't and so we weren't competing on a level playing field (and plenty of English people would make that argument).

This is an entirely domestic matter as far as I'm concerned. If Sarries really wanted they could hoard a pile of expensive players in their squad solely for use in the European Cup.

Why do they bother with a salary cap?