NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2017-18

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

JR and Thompson got paid after they contributed strongly to a championship in 2016. JR fell off the cliff since and it's easy to say that contract is terrible now. Thompson was a key piece in the 2016 finals too, and he's had personal issues this year that are probably affecting his game to some extent or no. The bottom line is that their decisions haven't worked out, but as a luxury tax team depending on MLEs and buyouts, their flexibility was limited.

As for the Kyrie / LeBron relationship, my take on it was Kyrie wanted to be the man somewhere. That trade didn't work out but it looked like a decent haul at the time. Hindsight is 20 / 20. There were valid reasons behind all of their moves throughout the last four years, it would be a mistake to think that teams can get all of their decisions correct.

And the end result is a one man team playing a four man team. Not that I'm saying Love / Hill / the rest have no value. But you're playing four reliable bulk performers who can carry offensive / defensive volume and pick each other up. LeBron needs to get towards 50 and even then it isn't enough.

You know LeBron ok'ed a trade to Phoenix with Beldsoe for Kyrie as per multiple sources and that's when the relationship broke down fully, right? They tried to trade him without his knowledge. When he found out, it was the final straw.



LeBron as a GM/talent spotter has had some big misses.

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

So you're criticising them for taking less money in order to win? I really don't get that. That show's they are unselfish as a bunch and can park egos.


Just because it's unprecedented doesn't mean it's wrong.

I didn't criticise or say it was wrong, I said it was unprecedented. And I think there are definitely arguments that they shouldn't take less than market value that go beyond basketball.

ButtersSuki

vetinari wrote: »

How is it different? It would be moving to guarantee yourself some Championships. Not to compete for championships but to guarantee them.

Nothing is guaranteed. One injury and it's all gone. Almost happened last year when Durant went down, almost happened this with Curry. Likewise, there were chemistry questions - questions which have become more amplified in recent times given the on and off court demeanor of the GS roster at times. They could have lost this year.



I don't think Durant stays in GS forever btw, I think he'll leave in the next few years.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I didn't criticise or say it was wrong, I said it was unprecedented. And I think there are definitely arguments that they shouldn't take less than market value that go beyond basketball.

Sure, if salary was their only income you'd have a very valid point.



But for all of these guys, their salaries are a a fraction of their income. And they clearly believe that winning together maximises all of the other opportunities available to them.


Obviously their income earning potential varies between each player but none of these guys are struggling. They have opportunities that they'd never get if they're playing for less fashionable markets like Minnesota etc., or on losing teams.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

LeBron's decision this off season is massively important for the competitive balance of the NBA as a whole the next five years. He needs to make a good decision that takes account of his likely decline over a three to five year period and the long term flexibility for roster construction around that. If he chooses the West, we may be consigned to very one sided NBA Finals (even if the West Conf champ becomes incredible). It's a lot of pressure and easy to make the wrong decision...

Totally agree.

LuckyLloyd

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Sure, if salary was their only income you'd have a very valid point.



But for all of these guys, their salaries are a a fraction of their income. And they clearly believe that winning together maximises all of the other opportunities available to them.


Obviously their income earning potential varies between each player but none of these guys are struggling. They have opportunities that they'd never get if they're playing for less fashionable markets like Minnesota etc., or on losing teams.

Believe me, I fully understand that LeBron’s salary is a percentage of his total income. However it’s a much greater percentage than people realise. Forbes reckons LeBron earmed $85.5m in 2017. His salary was ~34m of that, or ~40%. And LeBron is well ahead of other NBA players in that regard.

Moreover, you don’t address the philosophical / political considerations at play in the above.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Believe me, I fully understand that LeBron’s salary is a percentage of his total income. However it’s a much greater percentage than people realise. Forbes reckons LeBron earmed $85.5m in 2017. His salary was ~34m of that, or ~40%. And LeBron is well ahead of other NBA players in that regard.

Moreover, you don’t address the philosophical / political considerations at play in the above.

Wasn't avoiding them. Yes, there are those issues/concerns as you put them. However, all 4 of the GS players have made salary sacrifices. All 4 players could get more elsewhere with the possible exception of Curry - but then Curry was significantly underpaid on his last contract. This in a league where Andrew Wiggins got a max btw.......just for some context. They choose this. LeBron choose to get paid market value. Each has to live with the consequences of their decisions. For GS that likely means more rings. For LeBron, that likely means no more - at least if things remain the same.

You're also ignoring LeBron's lifetime deal with Nike which pays him long after he's retired. This is on top of his earlier deals btw.

https://www.si.com/nba/2016/05/17/lebron-james-nike-deal-contract-one-billion

Carcharodon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I understand that Warriors fans are going to dislike and not appreciate not being liked, but it is what it is. That said, let's break this down.

Carcharodon wrote: »

Steph curry - Drafted 7th in 2009, 6 teams passed on him

Klay Thompson - Drafted 11th in 2011, 10 teams passed on him

Draymond Green - Drafted 35th in 2012, 34 teams passed on him

People just seem to think The Warriors popped out of nowhere to steal the league

No, people think they got insanely lucky. Hitting on three HOF players from a 7th, 11th and 35th pick is exactly that. People will talk about skill in their scouting methods, etc but I don't buy that tbh. It's luck. Curry's injury; his full recovery and how that affected his contract status and price point was lucky too. It's a perfect storm of luck.

Carcharodon wrote: »

New ownership changed the mentality and direction of the franchise
I think it started with signing David Lee, then Bogut was also a big factor. Iggy was a major coup plus making players like Livingston that have bounced around the league core parts of the team
Harrison Barnes was also drafted 7th in 2012 who then signed a big contract for the mavs that paved the way for Durant
Warriors also replaced Jackson with Kerr, a great move.

The owners have made some prudent moves, but none of the above acquisitions were needle movers. They complimented the emergence of three HOF players from non premium draft picks well, but it is winning the lottery three times that is the core part of this. Their roster padding around that has generally been good though, and it certainly doesn't hurt.

Carcharodon wrote: »

Warriors didn’t put a gun to Durant’s head to sign, a lot of teams tried to sign him. This insane ideological notion he shouldn’t go there is mind blowing, I just don’t get it, why should he be a slave to the media and emotional uniformed fans.
This Warriors team won’t last forever and another team will take the mantle, why can’t people just enjoy it.

No - one ever said they put a gun to his head. But they lobbied for his signing, and numbers and expectations for numbers were worked to facilitate his signing. I don't have any strong 'ideological' belief that he shouldn't have signed mind, I think he made a prudent business / competitive decision, essentially trading some ego and legacy considerations for cold hard rings. But ultimately a 73 win team acquired a fourth HOF and league top 5 player because they'd just been upset in seven. This is about neutral fans looking at the deck as irreconcilably stacked.

For sure, they won't last forever. But Durant is 29; Curry 30; Klay 28; Draymond 28 - they have a three to five year window still.

Carcharodon wrote: »

The outpouring of sympathy for Lebron is a bit insane also, the man that made a tv program about his move which decimated his home town team, they were very lucky to get back to a decent roster so he would give them another chance.

The Decision was eight years ago. The Cavs were so bad during the Miami years that it created a mini 'Process' type reboot:

2010 - 11: 19 wins (Warriors 36 wins)
2011 - 12: 21 wins (Warriors 23 wins)
2012 - 13: 24 wins (Warriors 47 wins)
2013 - 14: 33 wins (Warriors 51 wins)

And that, of course, is why he left in the first place. His 2010 team was terrible, it had been terrible for years and a fundamental retooling was required if they were ever to become Championship ready, which couldn't have happened had he stayed.

Carcharodon wrote: »

I don’t remember this outrage when Shaq went to LA, how about when the Spurs tanked a season to get a better chance at Duncan, Celtics creating the big 3, Miami creating the big 3.
If the Warriors lost to Houston would people be having the same discussion, probably not, probably a different soundbite they heard from skip bayless

Because it's four HOF players on one team!! All in their peak years!! The reaction and conversation is different because IT IS different.

That’s a bit of a Debbie downer outlook on things.
I never said Warriors made these amazing knowledgeable drafts, there is always luck involved but why should the Warriors be apologetic for this, lots of teams could of drafted them
There is no guarantee these players reach this level if they were drafted anywhere else.
Great players don’t always look great in poor systems or organizations, Warriors system has coincided with these players playing at this level.
I honestly don’t get why people would begrudge Durant for wanting to play with egoless players and win championships, and have fun !!
Durant wanted out of okc, what organization would turn him down ???

Carcharodon

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I understand that Warriors fans are going to dislike and not appreciate not being liked, but it is what it is. That said, let's break this down.

Carcharodon wrote: »

Steph curry - Drafted 7th in 2009, 6 teams passed on him

Klay Thompson - Drafted 11th in 2011, 10 teams passed on him

Draymond Green - Drafted 35th in 2012, 34 teams passed on him

People just seem to think The Warriors popped out of nowhere to steal the league

No, people think they got insanely lucky. Hitting on three HOF players from a 7th, 11th and 35th pick is exactly that. People will talk about skill in their scouting methods, etc but I don't buy that tbh. It's luck. Curry's injury; his full recovery and how that affected his contract status and price point was lucky too. It's a perfect storm of luck.

Carcharodon wrote: »

New ownership changed the mentality and direction of the franchise
I think it started with signing David Lee, then Bogut was also a big factor. Iggy was a major coup plus making players like Livingston that have bounced around the league core parts of the team
Harrison Barnes was also drafted 7th in 2012 who then signed a big contract for the mavs that paved the way for Durant
Warriors also replaced Jackson with Kerr, a great move.

The owners have made some prudent moves, but none of the above acquisitions were needle movers. They complimented the emergence of three HOF players from non premium draft picks well, but it is winning the lottery three times that is the core part of this. Their roster padding around that has generally been good though, and it certainly doesn't hurt.

Carcharodon wrote: »

Warriors didn’t put a gun to Durant’s head to sign, a lot of teams tried to sign him. This insane ideological notion he shouldn’t go there is mind blowing, I just don’t get it, why should he be a slave to the media and emotional uniformed fans.
This Warriors team won’t last forever and another team will take the mantle, why can’t people just enjoy it.

No - one ever said they put a gun to his head. But they lobbied for his signing, and numbers and expectations for numbers were worked to facilitate his signing. I don't have any strong 'ideological' belief that he shouldn't have signed mind, I think he made a prudent business / competitive decision, essentially trading some ego and legacy considerations for cold hard rings. But ultimately a 73 win team acquired a fourth HOF and league top 5 player because they'd just been upset in seven. This is about neutral fans looking at the deck as irreconcilably stacked.

For sure, they won't last forever. But Durant is 29; Curry 30; Klay 28; Draymond 28 - they have a three to five year window still.

Carcharodon wrote: »

The outpouring of sympathy for Lebron is a bit insane also, the man that made a tv program about his move which decimated his home town team, they were very lucky to get back to a decent roster so he would give them another chance.

The Decision was eight years ago. The Cavs were so bad during the Miami years that it created a mini 'Process' type reboot:

2010 - 11: 19 wins (Warriors 36 wins)
2011 - 12: 21 wins (Warriors 23 wins)
2012 - 13: 24 wins (Warriors 47 wins)
2013 - 14: 33 wins (Warriors 51 wins)

And that, of course, is why he left in the first place. His 2010 team was terrible, it had been terrible for years and a fundamental retooling was required if they were ever to become Championship ready, which couldn't have happened had he stayed.

Carcharodon wrote: »

I don’t remember this outrage when Shaq went to LA, how about when the Spurs tanked a season to get a better chance at Duncan, Celtics creating the big 3, Miami creating the big 3.
If the Warriors lost to Houston would people be having the same discussion, probably not, probably a different soundbite they heard from skip bayless

Because it's four HOF players on one team!! All in their peak years!! The reaction and conversation is different because IT IS different.

That’s a bit of a Debbie downer outlook on things.
I never said Warriors made these amazing knowledgeable drafts, there is always luck involved but why should the Warriors be apologetic for this, lots of teams could of drafted them
There is no guarantee these players reach this level if they were drafted anywhere else.
Great players don’t always look great in poor systems or organizations, Warriors system has coincided with these players playing at this level.
I honestly don’t get why people would begrudge Durant for wanting to play with egoless players and win championships, and have fun !!
Durant wanted out of okc, what organization would turn him down ???

chopperbyrne

vetinari wrote: »

So to my earlier question, would you be okay with LeBron joining the Warriors after this season?

Yes. Absolutely.

I'd love to see that "super team", get even better, and steamroll everyone, setting all the records they can in the process.

vetinari

Fair enough, at least you're consistent.

Personally, I'd think it would be as cowardly as Durant's move.
If you have any thoughts about your legacy in the sport (and maybe Durant doesn't, maybe he was just wants to win championships), you can't make that move. I agree it's his decision to make if he wants to be the second most important player on a team and coast to a few titles.

It's also fair for fans to expect that a top 3 player in the league would seek to be the main player on their team.

ButtersSuki

Trump says Warriors/Cavs will not be invited to the White House as is the custom. Guy has zero class, and this is an utterly transparent move as he knew neither team would go if invited.

Carcharodon

vetinari wrote: »

Fair enough, at least you're consistent.

Personally, I'd think it would be as cowardly as Durant's move.
If you have any thoughts about your legacy in the sport (and maybe Durant doesn't, maybe he was just wants to win championships), you can't make that move. I agree it's his decision to make if he wants to be the second most important player on a team and coast to a few titles.

It's also fair for fans to expect that a top 3 player in the league would seek to be the main player on their team.

Cowardly...... you definitely watch too much skip bayless.
His legacy and history will show NBA championships and I am pretty sure he doesn’t care what us idiots on the internet think about his decisions.
Why do people have their put him down, what’s wrong with wanting to be part of a team, maybe playing with ball hog Westbrook is not how wanted to play out the rest of his career but be part of something special.

People act like this is some kind of anomaly, it happens in all sports, best players want to go to best teams

Paully D

The only team LeBron can go to that will realistically give him a chance of getting over the current Warriors straight away is Houston.

76ers and Lakers would probably be of interest to him of course but both are a little bit "build-ish" in the sense that it will take a couple of seasons for him to be able to get the pieces he wants aligned. Lakers probably don't even come close to making the Finals in his first year at least while he will make the Finals with the 76ers in his first year given how weak the East is.

He'll likely actually make the Finals in the East every single year (bar maybe accounting for one anomaly season) until he retires the way that's shaping up IMO.

I do hope he moves out West where he can't be virtually guaranteed a Finals shot every single year as he is now, but I have huge doubts.

ButtersSuki

Most read article on The Ringer this week?
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/6/8/17440192/lebron-james-boston-celtics-offseason


Purely speculative piece but still....


I'm a Boston fan. I don't want it.

rushfan

ButtersSuki wrote:

Purely speculative piece but still....

Hmm, after last year's IT trade, nothing would surprise me. Although the possibility of LBJ beating Russell's consecutive Finals appearances is hardly a motivation for him. After reading that, nothing's impossible I guess.

Osmosis Jones

This is a bit miserable, pretty much only watching this for posterity as (most likely) LeBron's last game in Cleveland.

rushfan

Cav's playing catch up ball. Golden State barely out of 2nd gear tbh.

Itssoeasy

Cavs free throw percentage is poor. they missed 3/4 in the last few minutes and steph got an easy three.

rushfan

Watching this on my phone, nobody on the Cav's seems very interested. Then, with less than a minute left in the 3rd, very interesting comment from Mark Jackson where he equates the Cav's with the famous Sugar Ray Leonard v Roberto Duran "No maas " fight from yesteryear. Even LeBron looks like he wishes the arena lights would go out so he could do a runner. Not a sound in the QL arena either.

Say Your Number

This is even an anti-climax for the Warrior players.

Carcharodon

Kevin Durant has won back-to-back NBA Finals MVP awards and 2 titles in 2 years. Please, tell me more about his bad decisions.

Say Your Number

Not a bad decision for him, but a bad decision for people who like competitive sport, they might as well give them the trophy for next year as well while they were at it.

Carcharodon

Say Your Number wrote: »

Not a bad decision for him, but a bad decision for people who like competitive sport, they might as well give them the trophy for next year as well while they were at it.

Sounds good to me, looking forward to the parade Tuesday

Carcharodon

Warriors fans: 4 year total:

326 - 83. (Reg + Post)
3/4 Titles.
Regular season wins record (73)

ButtersSuki

Anticlimactic game. Cans looked dejected and defeated early and had given up long before the end.

Curry had a big game but Durant’s triple double gets him the MVP.

Watched the LeBron presser. Worth a look.

shamrock55

Must be the dulllest finals in a long long time

Paully D

:pac:

https://twitter.com/sam_amick/status/1005302455217872896?s=21

Paully D

Thrilled for the Warriors and their fans.

That organization are a true example of how to build a team properly from the top down, after years and years of enduring muck.

Smart, innovative coaching hires and superb drafting.

Enjoy.

Gregk961

Paully D wrote: »

Thrilled for the Warriors and their fans.

That organization are a true example of how to build a team properly from the top down, after years and years of enduring muck.

Smart, innovative coaching hires and superb drafting.

Enjoy.

About the most sensible thing on this thread in the last week or so.

Well done to the Warriors, one of the best teams ever assembled without a doubt.