NBA Regular Season & Playoffs 2017-18

NufcNavan

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Boogie out for the season with a torn ACL, really sad considering he'd just been named an All-Star starter, he's putting up ridiculous stats, and was pretty much guaranteed to make it to the playoffs.

Torn Achilles, which is worse than ACL unfortunately.

K.O.Kiki

Man, poor Pelis

At least the Sixers are doing well this year.

ButtersSuki

That's a big blow to NO and Boogie (contract year...more or less!). Very sad; I know he has his detractors but I've always been a huge fan.

Carcharodon

ButtersSuki wrote: »

There's been rumours for years. It's been touched on by Bill Simmons in more than one podcast, been "joked" (in that wink wink way) on Around The Horn and on PTI but always erring on the side of legal caution. Even Dan Le Batard has "joked" about it - and in the Miami-Bron Era he was their biggest fanboy.

My primary degree is in sports science (though I work in a completely different field) and this is one area I've always been interested in. There's a lot of alarm bells there TBH with LeBron but in fairness the guy takes care of his body like pretty much no one in Pro Sports history. Now the counter to that of course is that one of the main benefits of PEDs is not the ability to train harder, but recover better and quicker (and subsequently train again etc. - I don't want to get too technical here). The Miami mid-season "holiday" he took a few years back and the physical transformation he had in those few weeks off was a big flag for me; and when you not the location of some of the sports "labs/clinics" in Miami it's another flag.

I really dislike LeBron as a person, I've never denied that; but he's an insanely gifted athlete and an amazing player (even if I feel his game has weaknesses and that he's not a killer in the same way Jordan, Bird etc. were). I would be absolutely gutted if he were found to be using. I'd hate if any NBA player was caught (except Austin Rivers :pac:), but to think that there's no users in the NBA is incredibly naive. In a sport that's that explosive and athletic and with a playing and travelling schedule as insane as the NBA's is, there simply has to be guys using. FFS Marc Cuban was advocating the use of HGH in certain circumstances last year!

On your comment re. the organisation - sadly, I don't think the NBA would disclose it if he were caught though.

Edit: Three other quick ones:
1. the jaw tumor
2. the receeding hairline
3. just type "LeBron and PEDs" into google and look at the results from more credible sites.

Nothing conclusive in the hairline in isolation, but it is a sign. The jaw tumor though is a huge red flag.

Thanks for the info, its definitely very interesting and there may be some substance to it but I would still have to sit on the fence when there really isnt any hard proof. I did a little google research and a lot of what is being said is kind of hypothetical, I am sure LeBron and probably every other player has taken something to enhance performance or recovery but to what extent or even if its tested for is debatable. I would really hope something like the baseball drama never happens to the NBA, would be devastating.
If Lebron was found out, it still wouldnt change my opinion on what a great player he is, no amount of drugs cab give you that ability
I would love to hear your thoughts on Michelle Smith, I remember when all that went down and she was found guilty, it felt like she was railroaded. She was one of the most tested athletes ever and never failed test, they got her on a tampered urine sample or something. Ive read she was one of the first swimmers to change the style of training, concentrating more in the weight room than the pool, thats what set her apart at the time. Or maybe she was drugged up to her eyeballs lol

Carcharodon

Boogies injury really sucks, its one of the worst injuries to get for an athlete
Warriors v Celtics was fantastic tonight, would make a great finals, Kyrie plays lights out against Warriors, Curry was sensational as usual, take that for granted at this stage

ButtersSuki

Carcharodon wrote: »

Thanks for the info, its definitely very interesting and there may be some substance to it but I would still have to sit on the fence when there really isnt any hard proof. I did a little google research and a lot of what is being said is kind of hypothetical, I am sure LeBron and probably every other player has taken something to enhance performance or recovery but to what extent or even if its tested for is debatable. I would really hope something like the baseball drama never happens to the NBA, would be devastating.
If Lebron was found out, it still wouldnt change my opinion on what a great player he is, no amount of drugs cab give you that ability
I would love to hear your thoughts on Michelle Smith, I remember when all that went down and she was found guilty, it felt like she was railroaded. She was one of the most tested athletes ever and never failed test, they got her on a tampered urine sample or something. Ive read she was one of the first swimmers to change the style of training, concentrating more in the weight room than the pool, thats what set her apart at the time. Or maybe she was drugged up to her eyeballs lol

I'll have to PM you on that one!

Give me a few days...up to my teets right now.

Gregk961

Gutted about Boogie, I honestly thought they could upset anybody in the playoffs. I still think with Jrue, Rondo and AD they could sneak the 7 or 8 spot but its no guarantee now.

Just watched Celtics-Warriors, great game, one of the best so far this season and it would be a worthy finals series. It was like a battle between Kyrie and Curry when they were both on the court and Kyries best game as a Celtic. He made some impossible shots go, not sure I've ever seen a guard as good around the rim as he is.

Steph is playing as well as ever this year, It seems like its Hardens turn to be MVP but I'd have him below Steph personally.

ButtersSuki

Carcharodon wrote: »

Boogies injury really sucks, its one of the worst injuries to get for an athlete
Warriors v Celtics was fantastic tonight, would make a great finals, Kyrie plays lights out against Warriors, Curry was sensational as usual, take that for granted at this stage

Watched it all earlier today (not live). GS were excellent, but Boston were very impressive - the future looks very bright indeed. For me that was their best game of the season when you factor everything into it - on the road, on a bit of recent slump, Horford just back from injury etc.

It's scary in a way when you talk about "holding" GS to 109, but even that wasn't enough. Boston's system is clearly defence-oriented and their key to wins is keeping it under the ton. You could say they need a 2nd/3rd scorer after Kyrie (and to a lesser degree Horford) but then you think about how young they are. Looking very good in the 3-5 year window. As a Boston fan I'm very excited about the future.

Curry was just :eek:. Despite the/some stats indicating otherwise, he really is the best/most valuable player on that team.

LuckyLloyd

Clean sports is a myth imo. There are huge vested interests in propagating a fantasy that most athletes are clean and only the very few cheat. Every sport that has really looked for drug cheats has found them everywhere. And the irony becomes that those sports then become tainted and written off as doper sports. So the easy path is the one sports like Rugby and Basketball are taking. Pay lip service to testing, do limited amounts of it and retain a positive image around the sport.

If LeBron is cheating so are countless others. It is so genuinely rare to find one athlete at the top of the game cheating in isolation. Just look at the 30 fastest 100m times of all time, who ran them, and how many of them were caught. If Bolt is clean he's genuinely a Golden Unicorn.

A jawline tumor; receding hairline; something about how his muscles look - these are all really weak reasons to believe he's cheating. He is physically declining, albeit with a very gradual curve thus far. He is improving aspects of his game that can be practiced (3 pt shooting; free throws); he is playing very high minutes but clearly dialling down defensive intensity in the regular season to compensate. As noted in this thread, his commitment to diet and prehab and the willingness to invest in his body is extraordinary. He also just turned 33, so it is too soon to ascribe him the fountain of youth ala Federer just yet. Remember that Jordan played 38.8 mpg and started all 82 regular season games in his age 34 - 35 season while leading the league in ppg.

ButtersSuki

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Clean sports is a myth imo. There are huge vested interests in propagating a fantasy that most athletes are clean and only the very few cheat. Every sport that has really looked for drug cheats has found them everywhere. And the irony becomes that those sports then become tainted and written off as doper sports. So the easy path is the one sports like Rugby and Basketball are taking. Pay lip service to testing, do limited amounts of it and retain a positive image around the sport.

If LeBron is cheating so are countless others. It is so genuinely rare to find one athlete at the top of the game cheating in isolation. Just look at the 30 fastest 100m times of all time, who ran them, and how many of them were caught. If Bolt is clean he's genuinely a Golden Unicorn.

A jawline tumor; receding hairline; something about how his muscles look - these are all really weak reasons to believe he's cheating. He is physically declining, albeit with a very gradual curve thus far. He is improving aspects of his game that can be practiced (3 pt shooting; free throws); he is playing very high minutes but clearly dialling down defensive intensity in the regular season to compensate. As noted in this thread, his commitment to diet and prehab and the willingness to invest in his body is extraordinary. He also just turned 33, so it is too soon to ascribe him the fountain of youth ala Federer just yet. Remember that Jordan played 38.8 mpg and started all 82 regular season games in his age 34 - 35 season while leading the league in ppg.

I agree with most of what you've said but the jaw tumour is a huge red flag - it's a known and common side effect of PED use/misuse/abuse. If I had time and wasn't so tired myself I'd bore you with the science of it.

The muscular transformation (i.e. the before and after) he had from that short break in Miami was astonishing. I'm sure there must be a before and after on google but I'm in bed so I'll look later in the week.

The hairline sure can be written off as age, but it can also be a sign. But for the sake of argument let's discount it completely.

The NBA are a joke when it comes to testing though, as are most American sports. I'd just be gutted if the sport was found to have a serious problem. That said, I honestly don't understand how those guys play to the levels they do with bodies as big as they are for as many games as they do AND do the insane levels of travel they do on top of that. The fitness levels required to do that are superhuman. Would I be shocked if guys were doping? Absolutely not.

I didn't say he was the only one (if at all of course) by any means either - not saying you implied I did but just wanted to clarify that. I love the sport; I'd be gutted if anyone was caught TBH. But as the game's best player, I'd be more gutted if he was caught.

ButtersSuki

Some great dunks from the OKC - PHILLLY game last night.....Westbrook had a couple, Paul George had one, Simmons one nice alley oop; but the dunk of the night was Embiid over Russ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JPQSpHC-Us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASG3TYcyXFM

Insane levels of athleticism from a guy that size.

Gregk961

ButtersSuki wrote: »

Some great dunks from the OKC - PHILLLY game last night.....Westbrook had a couple, Paul George had one, Simmons one nice alley oop; but the dunk of the night was Embiid over Russ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JPQSpHC-Us

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASG3TYcyXFM

Insane levels of athleticism from a guy that size.

I watched the highlights this morning it looked like a pretty good game and they definatly dont like each other after their first meeting. I wonder what seed philly would be if they could finish out games better, they could have won ten more Id say if they were better in the 4th quarter.

Okc have gone from looking a mess to pretty decent in the last 2 months. Melo seems to be settling into his role as 3rd man better lately and George is the ultimate 2nd man to have on your team, the guy can do it all. Russ is back in MVP form as well. Only 2 games back from the 3 seed in the west now.

Osmosis Jones

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/958120746169053184

The Clippers and Pistons have agreed on a deal to trade Blake Griffin for Tobias Harris, Avery Bradley, Boban Marjanovic, a first-round and a second-round draft pick, league sources tell ESPN.

Clippers are blowing it up, expected them to stick it out after coming this far. I'd expect DJ and Lou will be off next.

ButtersSuki

Couldn’t sleep and as I checked the time on my phone I saw that on Twitter. Why pay him last summer then trade him now for a very poor return (initial reaction, I may change my mind on it)?

Found this in the replies to the Woj tweet:
https://twitter.com/echelonnyk/status/958120322099765249


Obviously old but I hadn’t seen it before...
:pac:

Gregk961

I think the Pistons got raided to be honest. They will probably get to the playoffs if blake stays on the court but that squad is going nowhere. Blake, Drummond and Jackson is not exactly going to rock the east.

The clippers are in good shape now with some quality players like Bradley, Beverly, Teodosic and Harris plus they will have 2 first round picks and whatever else they can get if they trade Williams and Jordan( they should). They can be in a nice position for the next few years. Im not great with picking coaches to be honest but Id get Rivers out of there at the end of the season.

ButtersSuki

Having sat with the BG trade for less than 24hours I'm coming around to it. Given his salary, injury-history and clearly declining athleticism I actually think it's a good deal for the Clippers. I'm assuming part 2 is to trade DeAndre and blow it up completely. I assume Jerry West is behind it too, rather than Doc in any way, shape or form.

4 takeaways from it:

1. VERY cynical (but smart in hindsight) move from the Clipps to give him the max without the no-trade clause last summer. The alternative was to let him walk for nothing; at least now they have some pieces on good contracts (ish) that they can do stiff with - whether that's keep them or trade again/waive etc.
2. Detroit have actually done ok out of it if he stays healthy as they gave up very little (they got Tobias on the cheap remember, and Bradley was a half season gamble that hasn't really worked).
3. Griffin (given how much he seems top love LA) will hate Detroit. Hate it.
4. AT LEAST THEY GOT TO KEEP THE JEWEL IN THE CROWN AUSTIN RIVERS! :pac:

ButtersSuki

Gregk961 wrote: »

I think the Pistons got raided to be honest. They will probably get to the playoffs if blake stays on the court but that squad is going nowhere. Blake, Drummond and Jackson is not exactly going to rock the east.

The clippers are in good shape now with some quality players like Bradley, Beverly, Teodosic and Harris plus they will have 2 first round picks and whatever else they can get if they trade Williams and Jordan( they should). They can be in a nice position for the next few years. Im not great with picking coaches to be honest but Id get Rivers out of there at the end of the season.

Word is they're looking to do another trade - that was Part 1 of 2 apparently!

A Clippers defensive backcourt of Bradly and Beverly would be interesting, though again, talk of Bradley being moved on again (potentially to the Cavs).

Rivers should be gone - and I say this as a Boston fan. He's been terrible when you really analyse it - makes me really question what value he actually had in the Boston Championship team that he coached. I read a lot of sports autobiographies and I've read a lot of England Rugby Team and Clive Woodward's role in their World Cup win. Martin Johnson and Lawrence Dallaglio's % of credit they attribute to Woodward's role in it is considerably different from that of Woodward's own version shall we say. I wonder if you really pushed the Celtics players on it what their opinion would be?

And that's before we talk about Austin.

ButtersSuki

Harden was the first 60 point triple double in NBA history.

Love breaks his hand and out 6-8 weeks; but more importantly for Cleveland really messes up their trade options. Terribly unfortunate timing for all concerned - at this stage I’d imagine Love would want out of there.

Wall to have a minor knee procedure; no return to play timeline yet. Wizards could miss the playoffs depending on how long he’s out, or be better without him - who knows?

Osmosis Jones

Drummond subbed for Wall in the ASG, deservedly so. I'd say it'll be Simmons/Dragic in for Love now.

Gregk961

I notice the media, who unanimously chastised KD for leaving OKC last year, are now up in arms about players being treated like pawns getting traded away. I agree that players get a raw deal sometimes but it seems very hypocritical that KD was and still is mocked for joining the Warriors by the same people horrified by the Clippers trading Blake.

I havnt supported an NBA team since I was a lot younger and consider myself a fan of the game not any team but I would be outraged at some recent trades if I was a fan of certain teams. Specifically Griffen and Isaiah Thomas have shown how ruthless these organisations are.

ButtersSuki

Gregk961 wrote: »

I notice the media, who unanimously chastised KD for leaving OKC last year, are now up in arms about players being treated like pawns getting traded away. I agree that players get a raw deal sometimes but it seems very hypocritical that KD was and still is mocked for joining the Warriors by the same people horrified by the Clippers trading Blake.

I havnt supported an NBA team since I was a lot younger and consider myself a fan of the game not any team but I would be outraged at some recent trades if I was a fan of certain teams. Specifically Griffen and Isaiah Thomas have shown how ruthless these organisations are.

I see your point...but there's not many Boston fans NOW (maybe not at the time of the trade) who'd perfer Thomas over Kyrie. I'm a Boston fan and I thought they gave too much at the time, now it looks like a steal. The reality is however if Kyrie didn't want out of the Cavs that trade never happens and Thomas is a still a Boston player. It was an opportunity thing. And don't forget Boston weren't even on his "these are the only 4 teams I will accept a trade to" list! At the time there were a lot of Boston fans who were incensed that they were letting Thomas go AND incensed that they were getting Kyrie back.

The Griffin thing sits less easily with me as they properly played him.

There was some outrage alright at the KD move, but LeBron ("I've never played on a superteam") James really started all of this....and ultimately yes, there is no loyalty. It wasn't unanimous though, there were quote a few commentators that I listen to at least that said he was doing what's best for him and fair play etc. - not everyone was condemning it.

Gregk961

ButtersSuki wrote: »

I see your point...but there's not many Boston fans NOW (maybe not at the time of the trade) who'd perfer Thomas over Kyrie. I'm a Boston fan and I thought they gave too much at the time, now it looks like a steal. The reality is however if Kyrie didn't want out of the Cavs that trade never happens and Thomas is a still a Boston player. It was an opportunity thing. And don't forget Boston weren't even on his "these are the only 4 teams I will accept a trade to" list! At the time there were a lot of Boston fans who were incensed that they were letting Thomas go AND incensed that they were getting Kyrie back.

The Griffin thing sits less easily with me as they properly played him.

There was some outrage alright at the KD move, but LeBron ("I've never played on a superteam") James really started all of this....and ultimately yes, there is no loyalty. It wasn't unanimous though, there were quote a few commentators that I listen to at least that said he was doing what's best for him and fair play etc. - not everyone was condemning it.

I could be remembering the Durant backlash wrong in fairness, but I'm pretty sure most media outlets held a dim view of Durant going to golden state. Personally I was disappointed at the move because of how unstoppable it made the GSW, but I understood Durant and his reasons. A lot of articles attacked KDs character for abandoning OKC.

The IT trade really bugged me during the summer, the guy had an amazing season and led(offensively at least) his team to the 1 seed and played some great ball in the playoffs. The moment Kyrie becomes available its bye bye Isaiah. I understand why the front office would trade up for Kyrie, he is a better player, but from a fans perspective I would have been seriously annoyed. Its not like Boston is starved of championships. The move just rubbed me the wrong way.

Griffin got ruthlessly shafted. It was a good trade for the Clippers long term but I would be disgusted as a fan.

rushfan

Off actual sport but, the whole IT/Kyrie trade reminded me of the time Liverpool sold John Alderidge to Real Sociedad around 1990. Never followed the club with the same enthusiasm since. Great and great and all as Kyrie is, I agree that it's looking like an absolute steal. I think most people were put out about it because IT played through such personal pain after he lost his sister. That kind of self sacrifice is long remembered by Boston fans. That's why IT will always have a place in Boston's hearts, unlike Ray Allen who seems determined to undo what legacy he has there. And on another note, ESPN are reporting this morning that LeBron would be open to FA talks with the Warriors. Sure who else would ya be talking to anyway???

ButtersSuki

rushfan wrote: »

Off actual sport but, the whole IT/Kyrie trade reminded me of the time Liverpool sold John Alderidge to Real Sociedad around 1990. Never followed the club with the same enthusiasm since. Great and great and all as Kyrie is, I agree that it's looking like an absolute steal. I think most people were put out about it because IT played through such personal pain after he lost his sister. That kind of self sacrifice is long remembered by Boston fans. That's why IT will always have a place in Boston's hearts, unlike Ray Allen who seems determined to undo what legacy he has there. And on another note, ESPN are reporting this morning that LeBron would be open to FA talks with the Warriors. Sure who else would ya be talking to anyway???

Well he’s never played on a superteam!

rushfan

ButtersSuki wrote:

Well he’s never played on a superteam!

Maybe he'll join up with your good friend Austin!!!!

ButtersSuki

rushfan wrote: »

Maybe he'll join up with your good friend Austin!!!!

LeBron and Austin Rivers together, coached by Doc, would be the best 2 player combo in league history. They’d be so good that they wouldn’t need teammates, it’d be 2 v 5 and they’d still beat everyone. The only barrier is the league would have to up the salary cap to make sure Austin got paid enough.

K.O.Kiki

Just saw the video of Isiah Canaan's injury, another freak broken leg!

ButtersSuki

rushfan wrote: »

And on another note, ESPN are reporting this morning that LeBron would be open to FA talks with the Warriors. Sure who else would ya be talking to anyway???

I assumed this would be impossible to make happen. They have to do 2 things to make it so:

1. Get KD to take $2m less next year in his negotiations
2. Move Shawn Livingston and his contract

That's it. :eek:


I don't think I'd watch that. Would be a joke and make a mockery of the League. And show what a "ring chaser no matter what anyone thinks of my legacy" he is.

I really hope GS say "nah, we're good bruh".

Gregk961

Seems like fantasy stuff to me. It was more than likely a throwaway comment by somebody from LeBrons camp that the media has blown out of all proportion because people believe this kind of crap and want to read/watch about it.

He is the best player in the world but what would he really add to the Warriors. They would almost certainly win championships but thats already the case. Just seems like a fairly pointless move to throw a superstar into a team that already has 4 superstars.

nerd69

Ahh there's no way Kd would go to the warriors that would break the league and why would you go to the team that your trying to beat