Why is it normal/OK to be obese in Ireland?.

Samaris

mickrock wrote: »

NEWSFLASH!

It seems that being "overweight" is healthier than being of "normal" weight. Although scientific studies indicate this, it's not considered PC to promote this sort of information. Here's what Dr Malcolm Kendrick has to say:


'Despite the fact that study after study has demonstrated quite clearly that "overweight" people live the longest, no one can bring themselves to say: "Sorry, we were wrong. A BMI between 25 and 29 is the healthiest weight of all. For those of you between 20 and 25, I say, eat more, become healthier." Who would dare say such a thing? Not anyone with tenure at a leading university, that's for sure.

In truth, this discussion should not quite stop here. For even when we get into those with a BMI greater than 30, those who truly are defined as "obese", the health dangers are greatly overestimated, mainly because of the widespread use of what I call the statistical "clumping game". Obesity researchers are world-leading experts at the clumping game. In most studies, the entire population is divided ("clumped") into four groups: underweight, normal weight, overweight and obese – obese being defined as a BMI of 30 and above. That means those with a BMI of 31 are clumped together as part of a group which includes those with a BMI of 50 – and above. What does this tell us about the health problems of having a BMI of 31? Well, absolutely nothing.

There is no doubt that becoming heavier and heavier must, at some point, damage your health and reduce your life expectancy. Where is this point? Well, it is certainly not anywhere between 25 and 30, and it could be even higher. Indeed, I have seen research on Italian women showing that a BMI of 33 was associated with the longest life expectancy. In other studies, where obesity was actually further sub-divided, those with a BMI between 30 and 35 lived longer than those of so-called "normal" weight.'

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/features/why-being-overweight-means-you-live-longer-the-way-scientists-twist-the-facts-10158229.html

The PC jab is unreasonable. So there is a limit to the use of the BMI metric. Anyone surprised, raise your hands, since we should all be well-aware by now that the BMI metric is limited to weight/height and that's it. It over-estimates if you have denser bones or higher muscle mass, and it underestimates if you have a high body-fat mass (but your weight appears normal) If you just scrape into the 31, you've been lumped in with the 50s and any awful side-effects will be shown as coming for your sector, because that is a very wide range. Not all of them take age group into account either, and they should. The expected BMI of a teenage girl versus a mature woman that has given birth three times is going to be different. (I strongly suspect a problem between measuring mature men and women due to their different fat distributions and amounts, but I don't know if that's a problem.)

The BMI scale is not for what it's being used for in here. It is actually not intended to be used by individuals to figure themselves out. It was a coarse measurement of a metric within a population to give an overview of population obesity, while hoping that the scale sorts out those it's mis-measuring. Like using IQ to measure intelligence, it is an essentially limited metric. Anyone who doesn't understand this at the outset of using it to measure either their own obesity or comment on someone else's is going to dangerously miss the point.

This isn't even really "scientists twisting the facts", this is "population wildly misunderstands tool and uses it". They probably need to be told that it's not really suited for it more though. And doctors shouldn't encourage it imo, but I appreciate the only other method is a specific set of measurements of the individual, which is more difficult, personal, expensive, detailed, probably can't be released to groups that want to know obesity stats, etc.

Hammer89

Hammer89 wrote: »

You won't see me engage in a debate about your condition - it makes zero sense because I know nothing about it - but for some bizarre reason obesity is a subject where you don't necessarily need experience, knowledge or insight in order to speak about it. It's a free-for-all, and that's a problem. It's like asking a bunch of chimps to paint your house - they're going to make an absolute f*cking mess of it, and that's what the OP has achieved here.

Deleted User wrote: »

Any topic should be open to discussion. By your logic, no doctor, or psychologist should treat Obese people unless they have been obese themselves at some stage. No poster on boards can look online at the research published about obesity and comment on it because they haven't experienced obesity themselves.

Seriously, can you read? Or do you only read what you want to see? I have no f*cking clue where you got the idea that I'm claiming only currently or previously obese people have the qualifications to discuss it.

Hammer89

And stop bolding parts of your own post please. It looks like I'm bolding them when I quote it and then you think that's the part I'm debating because you forgot you emboldened it.

Hammer89

Hammer89 wrote: »

Seriously, can you read? Or do you only read what you want to see? I have no f*cking clue where you got the idea that I'm claiming only currently or previously obese people have the qualifications to discuss it.

Okay fine, you're not claiming such. Grand. That's all that needs to be said.

nice_guy80

starts with kids

so many parents shirk their responsibilities to feed children properly and make sure they get exercise outside
running, climbing, balancing, falling, getting dirty


we've kids in school who literally cannot run as the parents never got them out moving when younger

mickrock

Samaris wrote: »

This isn't even really "scientists twisting the facts", this is "population wildly misunderstands tool and uses it".

But if scientists discovered that being fat has health benefits would it be readily accepted or would attempts be made to explain it away? The latter seems to be what happens. The pesky facts get in the way and they end up calling it a "paradox"!

https://qz.com/550527/obesity-paradox-scientists-now-think-that-being-overweight-is-sometimes-good-for-your-health/

"Around a dozen years ago, researchers noticed that some patients with chronic conditions such as heart disease fared better than others. This should have been encouraging news, perhaps a clue to future treatments. Instead, researchers were baffled. Because the factor that seemed to be protecting these patients was fat: They were all overweight or mildly obese."

"Even scientists whose own research has identified the paradox often seem ambivalent about the possibility that it might hold true."

tawnyowl

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Statistical is how it's spelt.

Maybe I don't have a clue, so what?. Not offering medical advice or anything pal.


Cue some long winded snide holier than thou response.

Seamus highlighted your phrase median average head of population - hint: that phrase doesn't make much sense - for a start, the median and average are distinct.

Nettle Soup

nice_guy80 wrote: »

starts with kids

so many parents shirk their responsibilities to feed children properly and make sure they get exercise outside
running, climbing, balancing, falling, getting dirty


we've kids in school who literally cannot run as the parents never got them out moving when younger

I train underage teams in 2 sports. I am shocked at their decreasing levels of fitness in the last 5-10 years. Not all of them but on average the teams have less stamina than they had in the past.

Stonedpilot

Hammer89 wrote: »

......And who is suggesting that it's good to remain obese? OP might very well be an absolute genius. This was a masterstroke in deception.

I'm going to start a thread asking why it's normal/okay for Irish people to be sh*tting in sinks. Then I'm going to make up a bunch of anecdotes about how often I've seen and heard about it. Then hopefully people will think, 'I completely agree. Sh*tting in sinks is horrendous carry on so it is' but it's a phenomenon which doesn't exist and neither does the narrative that Ireland is some sort of pro-obesity nation whose obese population are encouraged to glorify their lifestyle. He made it up. He's Kevin Spacey in The Usual Suspects and hopefully this is where your mug drops on the floor.

There is no Keyser Soze and there is no acceptance toward obesity in Irish society. I wish I could continue The Usual Suspects theme and say 'My guess is you'll never hear from OP again' but he'll be here tomorrow claiming he just saw a 18-stone woman win Miss Ireland or some other lie which supports his fake argument that Irish society encourages obesity.

I am Keyzer Soze yep. If you want to believe I spent ages concocting this thread , meticulous detail, reseach, biased fabrications, devious plotting months in advance etc all finaced by the fatist federation through mi6 or some such to demonise obese people on a Irish internet form go ahead knock yourself out.

By the way the woman I saw win miss Ireland the other day was 252 pounds not 18 stone. : )

wakka12

uch wrote: »

This isn't the UK last time there was a rebellion checked

Similar culture,diet and obesity levels.

Hammer89

Stonedpilot wrote: »

I am Keyzer Soze yep. If you want to believe I spent ages concocting this thread , meticulous detail, reseach, biased fabrications, devious plotting months in advance etc all finaced by the fatist federation through mi6 or some such to demonise obese people on a Irish internet form go ahead knock yourself out.

I think it's pretty obvious you didn't spend ages on this thread mate. You probably wrote the first post when you were taking a sh*t in work.

And no you're not Keyser Soze - this thread is Keyser Soze. You're Kevin Spacey, the fella who made up a fake narrative on the basis that about 70 people in Donnybrook gave some obese woman on The Late Late a round of applause because she had the audacity to claim she was content in life despite her weight issue.

Hammer89

By the way, one of the hardest things about losing a lot of weight in my experience isn't the overhaul of eatings habits or the exercise - it's the realisation that you are treated better when you don't look like such an oddity. People of both sexes and all ages are waaaay nicer to you.

You get smiled at a lot more often. You get doors held open for you a lot more often. You get spoken to by complete strangers a lot more often. Suddenly you get treated like a human being whereas before you're treated as another species merely sharing the same planet.

This isn't neurosis - it's a real thing which a lot of people report after losing a lot of weight. The day people stop reporting this is the day you should get worried because that would be the single biggest indicator that it's normal to be obese. Until then, cool the jets. Obesity isn't en vogue and it won't be in our lifetime.

Stonedpilot

Hammer89 wrote: »

By the way, one of the hardest things about losing a lot of weight in my experience isn't the overhaul of eatings habits or the exercise - it's the realisation that you are treated better when you don't look like such an oddity. People of both sexes and all ages are waaaay nicer to you.

You get smiled at a lot more often. You get doors held open for you a lot more often. You get spoken to by complete strangers a lot more often. Suddenly you get treated like a human being whereas before you're treated as another species merely sharing the same planet.

This isn't neurosis - it's a real thing which a lot of people report after losing a lot of weight. The day people stop reporting this is the day you should get worried because that would be the single biggest indicator that it's normal to be obese. Until then, cool the jets. Obesity isn't en vogue and it won't be in our lifetime.

Again nowt to do with obesity. Good looking people get treated better in life. Just world we live in.I Think Georgia Salpa gets more compliments than say Joan Burton!.

Also why feel bad for being treated better?.

pimbeche

People who say the only reason theyre fat is because they have a medical condition / emotional issue is kidding themselves.

Sure its a hurdle but its not the main reason , you eat too much food you put on weight . I myself have a underactive thyroid which is one of the main conditions blamed for obesity. When I first got diagnosed its true I had put on some weight and losing said weight was like trying to swim against the tide but I did it . I didn't want to get to the stage where my weight was out of control. Instead of exercise every other day and eating healthy I had to exercise everyday and eat even healthier . Instead of the occasional treat I had to not have treats at all. It was harder than doing it with a condition but I still lost the weight and went back to normal despite my thyroid issues.

Im prompted to comment because the last few months Ive had a flare up and ive seen my weight start to creep up- its at that point you say ok time to get this under control now - not let it take over and wake up one day obese and blame it on the medical condition.

It annoys me so much to hear people saying its out of their control when its not - Its really hard to do it but that's life

Stonedpilot

pimbeche wrote: »

People who say the only reason theyre fat is because they have a medical condition / emotional issue is kidding themselves.

Sure its a hurdle but its not the main reason , you eat too much food you put on weight . I myself have a underactive thyroid which is one of the main conditions blamed for obesity. When I first got diagnosed its true I had put on some weight and losing said weight was like trying to swim against the tide but I did it . I didn't want to get to the stage where my weight was out of control. Instead of exercise every other day and eating healthy I had to exercise everyday and eat even healthier . Instead of the occasional treat I had to not have treats at all. It was harder than doing it with a condition but I still lost the weight and went back to normal despite my thyroid issues.

Im prompted to comment because the last few months Ive had a flare up and ive seen my weight start to creep up- its at that point you say ok time to get this under control now - not let it take over and wake up one day obese and blame it on the medical condition.

It annoys me so much to hear people saying its out of their control when its not - Its really hard to do it but that's life

+1. Common sense, WOW very rare these days.

BillyBobBS

Boom_Bap wrote: »

I think a better question is "Why are people obsessed with other people's appearance?"

I dunno because maybe just maybe it's because fat people are going to put huge pressure on our already crumbling health service. I'm sick to death of people not taking personal responsibility for themselves and then expecting everyone to chip in to the cost of looking after them because they are too lazy to do it themselves.

Thing is being fat is a choice for the vast majority of people and it's easily cured by something that is free, exercise. You don't even have to go running (i don't) Buy a pair of decent shoes and go for an hour walk every evening instead of sitting in front of the TV or laptop with a bag of crisps and a bottle of coke. Here's another bright idea, how about people start walking their kids to school, or walk to work, or cycle to work etc..

It's not even expensive to eat healthy for christ sake. Porridge costs next to nothing, fruit and veg in Aldi is almost criminally cheap etc...

mickrock

BillyBobBS wrote: »

I dunno because maybe just maybe it's because fat people are going to put huge pressure on our already crumbling health service.

Or just maybe they won't cost the health service that much extra. The black and white thinking behind the "being fat is unhealthy" mantra is dubious.

Studies show that, on the whole, being somewhat fat or even mildy obese don't have the negative health consequences or shorten life expectancy that we've all been lead to believe.

It's mainly down to aesthetics: we don't like the look of fat people.

givyjoe

mickrock wrote: »

Or just maybe they won't cost the health service that much extra. The black and white thinking behind the "being fat is unhealthy" mantra is dubious.

Studies show that, on the whole, being somewhat fat or even mildy obese don't have the negative health consequences or shorten life expectancy that we've all been lead to believe.

It's mainly down to aesthetics: we don't like the look of fat people.

Crackpot study that most research wouldn't support. Being mildly obese is NOT good for you. For example, how much exercise do you think a mildly obese person can actually sustain before keeling over?

mickrock

givyjoe wrote: »

Crackpot study that most research wouldn't support. Being mildly obese is NOT good for you.

Here are the results of one such "crackpot" study ('obesity class I' is mildly obese):

"Our results are similar to those from other recent studies, confirming that underweight and obesity class II+ are clear risk factors for mortality, and showing that when compared to the acceptable BMI category, overweight appears to be protective against mortality. Obesity class I was not associated with an increased risk of mortality."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19543208


Another study said:
"Overweight and obesity are generally thought to elevate morbidity and mortality. New data call this supposed association into question."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19890430


Yet another said:
"Overweight was not associated with excess mortality."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15840860

Hammer89

BillyBobBS wrote: »

Thing is being fat is a choice for the vast majority of people and it's easily cured by something that is free, exercise. You don't even have to go running (i don't) Buy a pair of decent shoes and go for an hour walk every evening instead of sitting in front of the TV or laptop with a bag of crisps and a bottle of coke. Here's another bright idea, how about people start walking their kids to school, or walk to work, or cycle to work etc..

We're a pretty backwards and ignorant nation in regards to weight loss and this proves as much - if this thread doesn't already. If the majority of people in Ireland still believe that exercise is a key factor in mass weight loss - which I've no doubt that they do - then we have no hope.

givyjoe

mickrock wrote: »

Here are the results of one such "crackpot" study ('obesity class I' is mildly obese):

"Our results are similar to those from other recent studies, confirming that underweight and obesity class II+ are clear risk factors for mortality, and showing that when compared to the acceptable BMI category, overweight appears to be protective against mortality. Obesity class I was not associated with an increased risk of mortality."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19543208


Another study said:
"Overweight and obesity are generally thought to elevate morbidity and mortality. New data call this supposed association into question."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19890430


Yet another said:
"Overweight was not associated with excess mortality."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15840860

I'll take my chances on not being morbidly obese. Do you wanna get really fat and we'll see which one of us lives longer?

meeeeh

givyjoe wrote: »

I'll take my chances on not being morbidly obese. Do you wanna get really fat and we'll see which one of us lives longer?

Which part of moderately obese or overweight didn't you understand?

Anyway I think getting trim, fit and healthy is sometimes the only way dumb people can feel superior. That is why they are so preoccupied with those who are overweight.

givyjoe

meeeeh wrote: »

Which part of moderately obese or overweight didn't you understand?

Anyway I think getting trim, fit and healthy is sometimes the only way dumb people can feel superior. That is why they are so preoccupied with those who are overweight.

Amazing how fat people are too thick to figure out how to lose weight.

Silly me, moderately obese.. much better..

I mean, what do all them silly doctors know about the negative health implications of being overweight..

Uosdwis R. Dewoh

I used to have a harsh attitude towards obese people - I might still be considered to have one, but I have definitely gained more empathy in some respects. And it's not because I gained weight. I actually did, but that made me even more uncharitable towards obese people because I was thinking "Even being a bit overweight is fairly sh-t and I'm going to do something about it, so why wouldn't obese people do something about it before it got that way?" And doing something about it was still hard, even though it wasn't much compared to what an obese person would have to do to shed the weight.

I used to think obese people were all merely gluttonous, as if they could just stop the over-eating on a whim, whereas now I know food addiction, like drug/alcohol/gambling addiction, is a real thing.

You know those times when you just cannot stop eating crap for a few hours - maybe not everyone does, but I do very occasionally - well imagine feeling like that all the time: that's food addiction.

I don't agree with the "Big is beautiful" thing, I don't agree with the way some obese people act as though the world has to accommodate them or find them attractive, Health At Every Size is bullsh-t, and I do think it's very unattractive (the same way as I think being emaciated is very unattractive, or the way someone's body being destroyed by heroin would repulse me - it's an involuntary response). I don't think there is anything wrong with wincing at the unhealthy aspects, the damage that is being done to their bodies (the same, as I said, with underweight people or drug addicts, or people who are bulked up to oblivion via anabolic steroids) but I also realise that nobody (apart from members of extreme fetishist groups, and many of them are probably in denial) actually wants to feel that way, nobody wants to be massively overweight with all the additional problems it brings (even buying clothes must be a nightmare).

A hugely increased chance of arthritis, diabetes, heart disease and cancer is no way to live, but encouragement to change seems to be a more beneficial tool in my opinion. I think Slimming World seems like a great programme as it adjusts the person's mindset and they won't feel hungry on the programme. Yet they lose piles of weight and manage to stick to it.

job seeker

I'm 24 and my other brothers are 22 and 26. We spent our child hood playing soccer and rugby on the lawn with neighbours who were similar ages, working on the family farm and we even built our own tree house. All this took place after school and on holidays from school.

I see my sister (15) now, who was born into the generation of snap chat, Facebook etc. It's quite sad, that she has wasted her child hood and missed out on everything I done when I was young.

R.D. aka MR.D

The answer to the question is denial.

As someone who has been obese and is now a healthy weight. 100% denial. 'I'm grand'.

Would I have been grand if I stayed overweight? Maybe.

Am I happier now than when I was overweight? Yep.

Am I less intelligent now that I'm a normal weight? Nope. That's just silly.

Do I think about (or as some might want to dramatise it as; obsess about) overweight people in this country? Sometimes but usually in the same way I think about binge drinking, drug use, people who drink and drive, people who don't vaccinate their children. Even if they want to deny it, people who are massively overweight do have more health problems than people of an appropriate weight. Therefore it is a public health issue in many ways. Although that even has a name now 'healthism' or some such nonsense.


My fat neighbours have a big fat child who is now getting bullied at school. I 'obsess' about that poor little girl, the same way you would about a child who is sent in dirty clothes or not washed. It's just a really sad thing to see.

uch

Lads I'm a fat cu,nt all me life, Im fitter than a butchrs dog, I swim 2k twice a week and play indoor football once a week, I'm fitter than 79% of skinny cúnts, but I realised I needed to be less fat and it wasn't that difficult, I went to the local weight watchers, where you go to a meeting every week where you meet the most beautiful curvy women in Ireland, lads get to weight watchers

job seeker

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

The answer to the question is denial.

As someone who has been obese and is now a healthy weight. 100% denial. 'I'm grand'.

Would I have been grand if I stayed overweight? Maybe.

Am I happier now than when I was overweight? Yep.

Am I less intelligent now that I'm a normal weight? Nope. That's just silly.

Do I think about (or as some might want to dramatise it as; obsess about) overweight people in this country? Sometimes but usually in the same way I think about binge drinking, drug use, people who drink and drive, people who don't vaccinate their children. Even if they want to deny it, people who are massively overweight do have more health problems than people of an appropriate weight. Therefore it is a public health issue in many ways. Although that even has a name now 'healthism' or some such nonsense.


My fat neighbours have a big fat child who is now getting bullied at school. I 'obsess' about that poor little girl, the same way you would about a child who is sent in dirty clothes or not washed. It's just a really sad thing to see.

Well done on achieving your goal.

bilbot79

etselbbuns wrote: »

It is the potato effect.

It's the supermacs effect

jacksie66

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