Why is it normal/OK to be obese in Ireland?.

Stonedpilot

A genuine question.

The amount of people that are gargantuan on this Island is so high I'm surprised the island doesn't sink. It's seen as like a disease by many. I remember living in a houseshare with Eastern European girls and they often commented at how absurdly fat they thought Irish women are.

It's bizarre to me that in other countries it's seen as a problem and thus people try and sort it but here the people whom are tremendously overweight are seen to have an ailment,disease, are poor unfortunates etc like its the same as leukemia or something.

I remember Katie Hopkins was on the Late Late Show making the point you can't be happy and fat (I don't know I don't care frankly) but they cut to a obese lady in the audience who had only just opened her mouth and the audience were in rapturous applause. No matter what she said they would have clapped.
Katie asked the question 'Why are you clapping?. Are you clapping because she is overweight is that it?.'

That kinda sums up the attitude here. Being fat, unhealthy and obese is something to be proud of and God forbid anyone point out it's lunacy to be the size of a manatee.
Strange. Now I will say I have all the respect in the World for people who do something about it work out, eat healthy, get involved in classes, long walks etc. Fair play to them and well done. But then there are other folk whom see it as a God given right to be obese and to be angry with everyone, and to take up a seat and a half everytime they sit on a plane,bus or train squishing whomever is unfortunately beside them.
Had a few incidents recently where I seen very overweight people be angry with total strangers.

I mean I attended a talk recently and the guy doing it was so overweight he got tired standing up and walking around the lecture room!.

As far as I'm aware no country is as tolerant to obesity as Ireland, no way does France,Italy,Spain etc see it as the norm here.

Odd.

Feckoffcup

Either you go to the gym or you're overweight. That's the way the majority of Irish women. It's rare to see someone who doesn't work out and have a flat tummy especially over 30.

etselbbuns

It is the potato effect.

Stonedpilot

etselbbuns wrote: »

It is the potato effect.

You mean the carbs?. Doens't every country have spuds too!.

seamus

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Being fat, unhealthy and obese is something to be proud of and God forbid anyone point out it's lunacy to be the size of a manatee

You must be living in a parallel universe then.

Or maybe you're confusing "everyone doesn't point and laugh at fatties" as being indicative of admiration?

Father Hernandez

SEPT 23 1989

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Had a few incidents recently where I seen very overweight people be angry with total strangers.

probably hungry

Stonedpilot

seamus wrote: »

You must be living in a parallel universe then.

Or maybe you're confusing "everyone doesn't point and laugh at fatties" as being indicative of admiration?

There has been several examples on Irish TV and press where (usually women) in fairness are expressing how proud they are to be overweight. Like the Late Late Show example I gave.

Boom_Bap

I think a better question is "Why are people obsessed with other people's appearance?"

sibergoth

Stonedpilot wrote: »

As far as I'm aware no country is as tolerant to obesity as Ireland, no way does France,Italy,Spain etc see it as the norm here.

Odd.

have you been to America ?

elefant

Stonedpilot wrote: »

I remember Katie Hopkins was on the Late Late Show making the point you can't be happy and fat (I don't know I don't care frankly) but they cut to a obese lady in the audience who had only just opened her mouth and the audience were in rapturous applause. No matter what she said they would have clapped.
Katie asked the question 'Why are you clapping?. Are you clapping because she is overweight is that it?.'

Josef Mengele could have been in the audience and the audience would have applauded him for disagreeing with Katie Hopkins.

frozenfrozen

Boom_Bap wrote: »

I think a better question is "Why are people obsessed with other people's appearance?"

obesity isn't a wacky haircut

riffmongous

Let's see the Brits try starve us out now

LirW

I said the same thing to my man when I moved here, that it really stands out that there are plenty of obese people around, especially young women and it's sad really.
The awareness regarding healthy food and cooking seems to be quite bad here. Knowledge about cooking isn't passed on to kids like other European countries do that, I had long talks about that with my man's family because it fascinated me.

What's not entirely Irish is the taboo to point out a person is overweight. You simply don't say to a person that they're obese and it can have bad consequences. While it's okay to bash people for being skinny (especially when their body is their main capital, models for example) you can't point obesity out.
I remember watching Project Runway where I think 2 seasons ago a morbidly obese woman won. A lot because of the fact that she designed for plus-size and sent a statement. It was impossible reasoning with her because everything that was said she took as an offence because "I know I'm fat and I was bullied for it my entire life" and this is simply wrong. When you're a cnut it has nothing to do with your weight.

I do see though a lot of action that's being taken against obesity. Especially in disadvantaged schools food is a BIG topic. My son attended one and there are a few campaigns for healthy eating also involving the parents. They are encouraged to attend cooking classes to learn how to cook from scratch. Also in his new school food and sports is certainly a topic.

It's just the body positivity movement that makes it problematic. Yes we all come in different shapes and sizes. Some people struggle with health problems so they don't really lose weight, we get this, that happens. But there is a certain point where weight isn't healthy anymore, that goes both ways. It's not healthy being so skinny you're not having your period anymore, but neither is being so heavy that you can't stand for 5 minutes nevermind walk. As someone who struggled with an eating disorder I don't get it how you can embrace this without reflecting that it can have permanent effects on your body.

seamus

Stonedpilot wrote: »

There has been several examples on Irish TV and press where (usually women) in fairness are expressing how proud they are to be overweight. Like the Late Late Show example I gave.

You didn't give an example of someone being proud they're fat. You gave an example of someone disagreeing with Katie Hopkins.

There's a difference between being "proud" of being fat and not being ashamed of it.

Are you saying that fat people should be ashamed? Should they hide themselves away lest you have to look upon their grim visage when you're outside?

Irish TV and press basically do nothing except discuss obesity epidemics and fitness. At least one night every week there's a show of some description related to getting fit or eating properly.

You're right in one aspect though - there's no insistence in Irish media that all women should be stick thin bottle blondes with big tits and that all men should be square-jawed, chiseled-chest hulks, the way there is in other countries.

Which is how it should be. Being obese is for the 99% something that can be corrected. But bodies at the correct weight still come in all shapes and sizes. Projecting a single ideal body shape for either gender is psychologically damaging because 95% of people will never be physically capable of achieving that body shape.

Is there an obesity issue in Ireland? Abso-****ing-lutely.

Is it because the media says being fat is cool? Abso-****ing-lutely not.

A Little Pony

Because sugar is crammed into literally everything nowadays and the humans are lazy and don't go through the hassle of picking alternatives, less activity and so on. Why do you think so many people get put on depressive medication these days, people eating utter ****e which has no nutritional benefit to them. Real food is a medicine.

Boom_Bap

frozenfrozen wrote: »

obesity isn't a wacky haircut

You're pretty much answering my question with your smart reply.

Nobody knows what any body is going through to lead to their appearance which society is hung up about commenting or reacting to.

Stonedpilot

sibergoth wrote: »

have you been to America ?

Yep, we are far worse, in terms of median average head of population.

Like random 100 people in America and 100 Irish picked at random Irish will be far fatter.

A Little Pony

seamus wrote: »

Stonedpilot wrote: »

There has been several examples on Irish TV and press where (usually women) in fairness are expressing how proud they are to be overweight. Like the Late Late Show example I gave.

You didn't give an example of someone being proud they're fat. You gave an example of someone disagreeing with Katie Hopkins.

There's a difference between being "proud" of being fat and not being ashamed of it.

Are you saying that fat people should be ashamed? Should they hide themselves away lest you have to look upon their grim visage when you're outside?

Irish TV and press basically do nothing except discuss obesity epidemics and fitness. At least one night every week there's a show of some description related to getting fit or eating properly.

You're right in one aspect though - there's no insistence in Irish media that all women should be stick thin bottle blondes with big tits and that all men should be square-jawed, chiseled-chest hulks, the way there is in other countries.

Which is how it should be. Being obese is for the 99% something that can be corrected. But bodies at the correct weight still come in all shapes and sizes. Projecting a single ideal body shape for either gender is psychologically damaging because 95% of people will never be physically capable of achieving that body shape.

Is there an obesity issue in Ireland? Abso-****ing-lutely.

Is it because the media says being fat is cool? Abso-****ing-lutely not.

Difference between having fat on you and being like that woman on the late late show who was huge. She was 18 stone at 45 years of age, absolute recipe for a heart attack/stroke/cardiac arrest. Why the thick audience on the late late show was clapping is beyond me. 

She needs to stop eating crap and drop the weight or she will die soon enough.

Stonedpilot

Boom_Bap wrote: »

I think a better question is "Why are people obsessed with other people's appearance?"

Then start you own thread on this my friend!.

seamus

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Yep, we are far worse, in terms of median average head of population.

Like random 100 people in America and 100 Irish picked at random Irish will be far fatter.

"If I just throw random statisticish mathematical words in here, they mightn't realise that I haven't a fncking clue what I'm talking about."

LirW

Boom_Bap wrote: »

You're pretty much answering my question with your smart reply.

Nobody knows what any body is going through to lead to their appearance which society is hung up about commenting or reacting to.

Some overweight people literally can't lose weight, for example women suffering from PCOS. But PCOS doesn't make you obese.
Some strong medication can cause piling of weight. But it usually doesn't make you horribly obese.

In most cases obesity comes down to an unhealthy lifestyle, which leads to medical problems that need permanent treatment because once you're in there, it's very hard to lose weight without professional help. And this creates pressure on the health system that's already overheated. Treating obesity costs a lot of money.
And in that I'm excluding people that have conditions that causes them to hold the weight.

Bigbagofcans

Overheard some comments lately about people criticising Kathryn Thomas for presenting 'The Biggest Loser'.
They were saying she was too skinny and not a normal weight and makes the contestants feel bad standing next to her.

I see a perfectly healthy and fit woman who should be inspiring people to lose weight and get fit, not tear her down because she doesn't fit into the 'average Irish female size of 14'.

Mrs OBumble

Alcohol.

And the dairy industry.

RoisinClare6

I'm fat. Am I proud? No

Am I working on fixing it. Yes

In the process of losing it at the moment. So I'm working on it yet you could see me on the street and start calling me a manatee or what ever when in reality I'm eating quite healthy and walking every day. When you see a fatter person yes some maybe lazy ass scratchers. Some may have thyroid issues, your weight in some thyroid cases can fluctuate by 20lbs some days. Or they are actually in the process of slimming down. So how do you choose which one it is OK to make fun of? From a outside perspective you don't know which one is which.


I'm not proud of how big I became to be, honestly I'm not but I'm sure as hell going to get rid of it.

Pat Mustard

Stonedpilot wrote: »

A genuine question.

I think that maybe there are two questions. The first question is why are so many people fat now, as opposed to previous decades?

The correct answer to that has been given many times before and can be explained very thoroughly by better people than me but the answer can boil down to the fact that there is sugar in our food everywhere and it's hard to avoid.

Somewhat overly simplistic answer number one: Sugar.

The second question is a bit different, and it is why is there a normalization of obesity. I'm not sure if the correct answer has been established in that regard but I suppose that it takes a while for people to adjust. Up to recently, we were being told that fat was bad and that we had to reduce fat, all the while nobody was saying anything about sugar. And people became fatter while following this poor advice.

Now we know that sugar is bad and many fats are good but it still takes a while to adjust. Back in the eighties and earlier, most Irish people were slim. These slim people might be looked on as skinny now. We have adjusted to a situation where large sections of the population are overweight. It will take a while to adjust back to a situation where it will no longer be normal for so many people to be overweight.

Somewhat overly simplistic answer number two: It takes a while to adjust.

nomdeboardie

LirW wrote: »

I said the same thing to my man when I moved here, that it really stands out that there are plenty of obese people around, especially young women and it's sad really.
The awareness regarding healthy food and cooking seems to be quite bad here. Knowledge about cooking isn't passed on to kids like other European countries do that, I had long talks about that with my man's family because it fascinated me.

What's not entirely Irish is the taboo to point out a person is overweight. You simply don't say to a person that they're obese and it can have bad consequences. While it's okay to bash people for being skinny (especially when their body is their main capital, models for example) you can't point obesity out.
I remember watching Project Runway where I think 2 seasons ago a morbidly obese woman won. A lot because of the fact that she designed for plus-size and sent a statement. It was impossible reasoning with her because everything that was said she took as an offence because "I know I'm fat and I was bullied for it my entire life" and this is simply wrong. When you're a cnut it has nothing to do with your weight.

I do see though a lot of action that's being taken against obesity. Especially in disadvantaged schools food is a BIG topic. My son attended one and there are a few campaigns for healthy eating also involving the parents. They are encouraged to attend cooking classes to learn how to cook from scratch. Also in his new school food and sports is certainly a topic.

It's just the body positivity movement that makes it problematic. Yes we all come in different shapes and sizes. Some people struggle with health problems so they don't really lose weight, we get this, that happens. But there is a certain point where weight isn't healthy anymore, that goes both ways. It's not healthy being so skinny you're not having your period anymore, but neither is being so heavy that you can't stand for 5 minutes nevermind walk. As someone who struggled with an eating disorder I don't get it how you can embrace this without reflecting that it can have permanent effects on your body.

Dr Eva, is that you :eek:

osarusan

Stonedpilot wrote: »

Yep, we are far worse, in terms of median average head of population.

Like random 100 people in America and 100 Irish picked at random Irish will be far fatter.

The Lancet reported that in 2014 US obesity rates at 34.25% whereas Ireland's was 25.55%.

LirW

RoisinClare6 wrote: »

I'm fat. Am I proud? No

Am I working on fixing it. Yes

In the process of losing it at the moment. So I'm working on it yet you could see me on the street and start calling me a manatee or what ever when in reality I'm eating quite healthy and walking every day. When you see a fatter person yes some maybe lazy ass scratchers. Some may have thyroid issues, your weight in some thyroid cases can fluctuate by 20lbs some days. Or they are actually in the process of slimming down. So how do you choose which one it is OK to make fun of? From a outside perspective you don't know which one is which.


I'm not proud of how big I became to be, honestly I'm not but I'm sure as hell going to get rid of it.

I think it's not so much about making fun of anyone, but raising an issue. I'd never make fun of anyone because of their shape.
If someone has knee issues that are quite obvious, plenty of people would ask "Did you see a doctor" or offer advice because they have been in a similar position. If you actually want that advice is another thing.
The point is though that it's often not so much about someone being overweight but the obvious signs that this isn't healthy for that person, like for example an obese person having to sit down after 5 minutes of walking. This isn't healthy.

By the way, I wish you all the best to reach your goal! It'll all work out.

Stonedpilot

seamus wrote: »

"If I just throw random statisticish mathematical words in here, they mightn't realise that I haven't a fncking clue what I'm talking about."

Statistical is how it's spelt.

Maybe I don't have a clue, so what?. Not offering medical advice or anything pal.


Cue some long winded snide holier than thou response.

One eyed Jack

My nerves may be buried deep down under layers of gorgeous fat, but you still managed to touch one OP, just about... :pac:


Extra wind-up points for the focus on women, and the inclusion of Katie Hopkins, as if anyone should actually give two fcuks for her opinion... on anything!!

keeponhurling

Its cultural as well though.

If you are no more fat than the rest of your friends or people around you, then it's probably not a priority to lose weight (Ireland).

Whereas if all your friends are slim and healthy, then you'll probably follow their lead a bit more.

For example the Eastern Europeans thinking an Irish girl is obese, but the girl herself doesnt think so.

Wildcard7

Stonedpilot wrote: »

You mean the carbs?. Doens't every country have spuds too!.

I was a bit confused when I went to the freezer section in Tesco, and the "vegetable" aisle was filled with 75% potatoes. That part is unique to Ireland, IMHO.

Where I'm from, potatoes (/pasta/rice) is a "Sättigungsbeilage", a heavy side dish to fill you up. Here in Ireland people seem to think potatoes are a vegetable like broccoli or asparagus (yes I know potatoes are a vegetable, but there's a difference between eating a plate of chips and a plate of cauliflower).

flaneur

It would be quite unfair and inaccurate to say this is an exclusively Irish phenomenon. It's coming from a broader issue with hugely sugar-laden, processed food-laden 'western' diets.

As an English speaking country, we are heavily influenced by food and lifestyle trends in United States and very much part of the same culture in that regard, whether we think we are or not. And we are far more so than non-English speaking nations. We are cramming in a lot of sugar and highly processed carbs into our diets and it's all about snacking and grazing on very unhealthy foods.

Think about it: 20 years ago you absolutely would not have gone into a cafe and ordered a coffee the size of a pint topped with whipped cream and sprinkles and knocked that back with a big hunk of cake.

I was in one particular coffee chain recently (not a US one) and the sheer scale of the slice of cake I was given was ludicrous and it was the most sugary junk I have ever tasted.

Also with fast food the portions have increased a LOT. I remember being a kid in the early 90s and you went to McDonnald's. I distinctly remember in the early 1990s as a kid a "large" fries in McDonanlds and a Large Coke were the size of a medium today and the current "large" didn't exist and also it was somewhere you only went once in a blue moon. It certainly did not form part of your 'diet'.

We absolutely need to get back to basics and I don't see much evidence of it happening. What we are largely seeing is 'preaching to the converted' and the people who are already aware of healthy foods or who enjoy cooking and making things are the people who engage with the healthy eating message while a significant % of the population is feeding themselves into a hospital bed by the time they hit middle age.

I don't think it's enough to just accept that the market will regulate itself and we'll all get healthy again. We won't. There's a serious crisis when you see the % of people who are as fat as they are in Ireland, in the UK, in Australia, in NZ and particularly in the USA and Canada.

osarusan

I put demerara sugar instead of white sugar on my pancakes so I'm ok.

flaneur

Wildcard7 wrote: »

I was a bit confused when I went to the freezer section in Tesco, and the "vegetable" aisle was filled with 75% potatoes. That part is unique to Ireland, IMHO.

Where I'm from, potatoes (/pasta/rice) is a "Sättigungsbeilage", a heavy side dish to fill you up. Here in Ireland people seem to think potatoes are a vegetable like broccoli or asparagus (yes I know potatoes are a vegetable, but there's a difference between eating a plate of chips and a plate of cauliflower).

I'd agree on that but I think it's not unique to Ireland. It applies in the UK, US and quite a few other places too. It's very much cultural issues around food.
If you take something like a pasta dish or an asian dish here they're often served with a mountain of rice or pasta instead of a normal serving.

One area that drives me completely crazy is the motorway service stations here. There is usually no healthy food at them other than pre-packed salads which are usually limp and well past their prime.

Try being Coeliac and visiting one of them! All I can get sometimes is chips.

But for example, if you stop at most of them your choice is a fast-food outlet with burgers, chips, or possibly pizzas etc or, you get those weird canteen like carvery bars that seem to serve ENORMOUS portions of very overcooked 'hearty' food. I ordered a curry in one of them and she offered me rice. I said, yeah that's fine. Then she offered me chips to go with the rice and boiled carrots!?!

It was like some kind of huge meal you would serve up to a farmer who was out lifting rocks all day and needed a huge dose of calories. For your average person driving along the road it's incredibly inappropriate food.

A Little Pony

Also this myth that eating cleaner food like rice, chicken, vegetables etc is more expensive. I could easily fill a basket up with cleaner alternatives which cost less than if I started throwing in bags of crisps, cadbury chocolate, magums etc.

MrMorooka

LirW wrote: »

What's not entirely Irish is the taboo to point out a person is overweight. You simply don't say to a person that they're obese and it can have bad consequences.

It might be that all right. A couple of years back I ran into a Polish girl I used to work with, and the first thing she said to me was "oh, you have gotten fat". I was a bit taken aback, but she was right.

Then a few weeks ago I met a Polish wife of a coworker for the first time in a few years, and the first thing she said to me was "schudnąłeś"('you have lost weight'). Definitely other countries seem more open about these things.

Dial Hard

keeponhurling wrote: »

Its cultural as well though.

If you are no more fat than the rest of your friends or people around you, then it's probably not a priority to lose weight.

This. I was only thinking about the whole 1-in-3 (or is it 2-in-3?) Irish people are overweight or obese statistic the other day and thinking that's certainly not the case in my family or circle of friends. But then a Facebook acquaintance posted photos from a wedding she was at and literally every single person in the pics was fat. It was bananas to see.

LirW

Well it's not only poor people that are obese (even though there's a certain percentage) but working people too because many simply never learned how to cook and don't want/have the time for it. Once you know how to cook and have a reasonable routine you're pretty fast at it but when you never learned how to do it, it's intimidating and looks time-consuming. If you can handle a knife well, which takes practice, you chop stuff in light speed. If not you spend 25 minutes just figuring out how to chop without injuries.
I think cooking skills are a critical factor when it comes to obesity.


I read an interesting article not too long ago about the peak in gym membership in the states but people aren't dropping weight because they still eat pretty bad. It's not only what they eat but also that they don't make the time to sit down and eat slowly and chew properly, which leads to pretty bad eating habits.
Your diet is crucial to your success in dropping weight, much more than exercising is.

Dial Hard

LirW wrote: »

Your diet is crucial to your success in dropping weight, much more than exercising is.

You can't out-train a bad diet, as they say. Plus people tend to vastly over-estimate the amount of calories exercise actually burns and "reward" themselves disproportionately with food.

flaneur

I saw someone in the gym recently working away on a treadmill rehydrating with a BOTTLE OF COKE! and not even one of the 'personal sized' bottles .. a full 1.75l or whatever the smaller of the full size bottles is.

A Little Pony

If you can't put rice in a hob or a microwave and boil a few eggs while cooking some chicken strips/fish and a pot of vegetables then you would have to question the intelligence of that person.

flaneur

I think it's more a question of 'won't cook' than 'can't cook'.
It's a bit of hassle that someone's just deciding : nope, I won't do that.

Teaching people to enjoy cooking is an important part of life though.

I often wonder if it's a case of a culture that sees eating as a chore rather than something enjoyable.
It's almost like : Oh no! I have to make food now - open packet.. nom nom nom.
Where dinner is almost as utilitarian as feeding the cat. - Incidentally our cats are getting way too fat too for similar reasons! Feed the cat properly cooked or raw meat from time to time !

I find both Irish people and Americans will tend to 'scoff down' food very quickly without any concept of savouring it. Where as, in France for example, food is more of a thing you spend time enjoying and chilling out with.

LirW

You'd be surprised how many people aren't able to cook themselves a pot of feckin pasta.

The other thing I see here a lot is the boiled vegetable. I'm not too surprised to see that people don't like many vegetables because boiling them takes so much fun out of eating vegetables. Many boil them to watery mush. Then a carrot tastes marginally like carrot and the broccoli has the worst texture. It's so much nicer and fun to incorporate it in your dish somehow (I cook a lot of asian food and one of the reasons why I like it so much is exactly that, you have a bit of meat, and tons of mixed crunchy veg, I also make all my sauces from scratch).

Day Lewin

Have you ever visited the United States, OP?
They're huge,, they're all huge.
The United Kingdom?
Massive.
Take my word for it - if you travel a bit in those countries, you'd come home to Ireland and find the population pleasantly normal-looking.

flaneur

Well considering that they've started redesigning ambulances, starting in the United States, but now also in Australia, the UK and I am not sure about here but I would suspect it's probably considered in the design anyway, to accommodate heavier people.

In the US they've had incidents they couldn't get the patient into the ambulance due to lack of heavy winching equipment!!

Also reenforcement of hospital equipment due to heavier patients risking collapsing operating tables, X-ray machines and so on.

It's a signifiant problem for MRI machines as many of them can't really accommodate someone more than about 130kg (roughly 20 stone) due to the tables being unable to move people along and a risk of someone becoming jammed inside.

If you do get jammed inside, I'm not quite sure how you'd get out.. a tug of war team perhaps or, you'd just have to stay in there until you lost a few kg.

B0jangles

MrMorooka wrote: »

It might be that all right. A couple of years back I ran into a Polish girl I used to work with, and the first thing she said to me was "oh, you have gotten fat". I was a bit taken aback, but she was right.

Then a few weeks ago I met a Polish wife of a coworker for the first time in a few years, and the first thing she said to me was "schudnąłeś"('you have lost weight'). Definitely other countries seem more open about these things.

On the other hand, a Polish friend of mine said one of the nice things about living in Ireland was that there weren't constant ads for weight-loss pills on the T.V. and radio like there were when she lived in Poland.

_Roz_

As a fat person, I have to say I don't see that many fat women around. I'm always surrounded by skinny or healthy sized women and feel like I stand out a mile, and am spectacularly self-conscious of that. I certainly wouldn't say it's normal or common. As for ok - I figure if you're not affecting the people around you, then its nobody's business but yours. I certainly don't take up two plane seats.

I much prefer boiled broccoli to crunchy broccoli. And I'll happily eat a plate of it.
There, I said it.

Irish Guitarist

Maybe if the Late Late Show got a doctor to give medical dietary advice instead of booking some 'controversial' tabloid nobody to boost their ratings the audience might listen to them.