Bus Eireann Possible Strike

Infini

Deleted User wrote: »

Here a shocking thought, if you hate your job that much then quit and get a 9-5 job. Plenty of people have it much worse than bus drivers, lots doing 12 hour shifts and not coming out with anything close to a BE driver salary.

Oh really would you like to name a few? Or do we have to wait till some overworked driver nod's off from exhaustion while driving and working excessive hours and crashes killing people and perhaps themselves before the people in charge wake the hell up? Because that's what it seem's to take these days so long as they can get away with it.

Deleted User wrote: »

You can cry and moan all you want on the internet but you won't find much sympathy apart from other drivers. Or, you can stop crying and find a new job. No one is forcing you to drive a bus and that have no life, that is a choice you are making.

There are people who can sympathise on the internet were not ALL salty trolls looking for any excuse to rant at the slighest problem and not deal with it. As for saying not forced to drive and find another job, sure he COULD do that but then be paid nothing for months because welfare dont pay strait out if you quit your job not to mention the money might not be enough to keep a person afloat expecially if they got kids to feed and put through school etc. So easy to put that argument out on the internet but if YOU were in that situation it'd be a different story.

Deleted User wrote: »

Since the strike BE services have been awful, buses not showing up, busesr arriving over an hour late. Drivers refusing to stop at bus stops full of people, drivers refusing to get off their holes to put out the disable ramp. Saw that happen quite a bit lately as according to a driver "it's not his job". There was also an incident during the past week where a driver in Galway was reported to the guards for pushing a passenger out of a bus and hurting them badly as the driver did not believe that the passengers child had special needs. People see this carry on and it's why they have so little respect for drivers. Respect is earned and BE drivers have done nothing to earn it. When I asked a driver recently why the bus was an hour late, he replied screaming "why don't you **** yourself" followed by "cu*t". I was polite and not aggressive and just curious as to why it was late.

What you say here isn't invalid its obviously not on if someones just being an asshole for the sake of it there's always a few in every place that ruin it for everyone else (I had to work with one in the past I know what's it like). That being said the public aren't exactly angels themselves while the vast majority are a good lot and perfectly reasonable there's always that small minority who will either be extremely difficult, overbearing, unreasonable, thick and downright aggressive self centered arsewipes who can ruin your entire day over a stupid pointless argument. Unfortunately with the way thing's are these days even if you get rid of the worst offenders and the real arsehole's it leave the rest picking up the leftover's and they end up overloaded and overworked. This can also lead to staff who are not normally foul tempered becoming stressed out and mentally drained and prone to losing their temper (and here we have ads from the HSE talking about mental health too over the radio).

Deleted User wrote: »

Take a look at the BE twitter, its thousands and thousands upon tweets replying to issues people are having. People are fed up of drivers being rude and disrespectful and then crying poor mouth at every chance.

As I said Koppenberg, why not find a job that suits you better instead of complaining on boards? Plenty of 9-5 jobs out there, but I suppose the 9-5 salary would be a huge cut in pay to a BE driver.

From the sound's of things that kopparberg said it sounds like the place is a disfunctional mess atm, I also find it suspicious this all came along shortly after BE's old CEO jumped ship. You can't blame all the staff on the ground for this at the end of the day management are the one's who are responsible as they hold the purse strings and make the decisions.

If there's one thing about the CIE companys that both employee's and people in general hate its the craptacular communication that leaves everyone wondering what's going on.

Infini

Infini wrote: »

Oh really would you like to name a few? Or do we have to wait till some overworked driver nod's off from exhaustion while driving and working excessive hours and crashes killing people and perhaps themselves before the people in charge wake the hell up? Because that's what it seem's to take these days so long as they can get away with it.

I used to do 12 hour shifts and I wasn't getting anything near what BE drivers get. Plenty of Doctors and Nurses do shifts as long if not longer than BE drivers.

Infini wrote: »

There are people who can sympathise on the internet were not ALL salty trolls looking for any excuse to rant at the slighest problem and not deal with it. As for saying not forced to drive and find another job, sure he COULD do that but then be paid nothing for months because welfare dont pay strait out if you quit your job not to mention the money might not be enough to keep a person afloat expecially if they got kids to feed and put through school etc. So easy to put that argument out on the internet but if YOU were in that situation it'd be a different story.

Why not look for another job while still driving buses? I have been in the situation where I hated my job, where I was doing long shifts and had little time between finishing an 11 hour shift and starting another one. I didn't sit at home behind a keyboard crying in my spare time, what I did was look for a better job. It took a little time and wasn't easy getting away to do job interviews but it was worth it. I could have stayed hating my job but I opted to move on. Why can't BE drivers do the same?

Infini wrote: »

What you say here isn't invalid its obviously not on if someones just being an asshole for the sake of it there's always a few in every place that ruin it for everyone else (I had to work with one in the past I know what's it like). That being said the public aren't exactly angels themselves while the vast majority are a good lot and perfectly reasonable there's always that small minority who will either be extremely difficult, overbearing, unreasonable, thick and downright aggressive self centered arsewipes who can ruin your entire day over a stupid pointless argument. Unfortunately with the way thing's are these days even if you get rid of the worst offenders and the real arsehole's it leave the rest picking up the leftover's and they end up overloaded and overworked. This can also lead to staff who are not normally foul tempered becoming stressed out and mentally drained and prone to losing their temper (and here we have ads from the HSE talking about mental health too over the radio).

So what you are saying is that we should excuse disgusting behavior by bus drivers because some people are dicks. The poor pets, they made the choice to take a customer facing job and if they can't handle interacting with customers then they should look for other work. BE drivers have it easy, maybe they do the odd long shift but absenteeism in there is epidemic. BE drivers want to have their cake and eat it, they get paid far more than private drivers and far more than most people working and then complain when they have to do long shifts. Boo Hoo Hoo, no one is forcing anyone to work for BE. If the drivers do not like their jobs then do what everyone else in the same position does and find another job.

Infini wrote: »

From the sound's of things that kopparberg said it sounds like the place is a disfunctional mess atm, I also find it suspicious this all came along shortly after BE's old CEO jumped ship. You can't blame all the staff on the ground for this at the end of the day management are the one's who are responsible as they hold the purse strings and make the decisions.

If there's one thing about the CIE companys that both employee's and people in general hate its the craptacular communication that leaves everyone wondering what's going on.

Please, all the drivers are doing is anglging to make life easier for themselves. They can blame everyone they want but and cry online about how awful it is but they have it pretty soft when compared to most. BE drivers have great benefits and salary and if they don't like it then they can leave. No one is forcing Koppenberg or any other driver to drive for BE. Let them find work elsewhere in a place that suits them more.

Infini

Deleted User wrote: »

I used to do 12 hour shifts and I wasn't getting anything near what BE drivers get. Plenty of Doctors and Nurses do shifts as long if not longer than BE drivers.

And are those jobs you talk about safety critical? They're unsafe, dangerous expecially when driving and actually legally unsound. 12 hour shifts on one job stocking shelves or doing office work arent the same as 12 hours on another like driving where mistake's can have fatal consequences.

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not look for another job while still driving buses? I have been in the situation where I hated my job, where I was doing long shifts and had little time between finishing an 11 hour shift and starting another one. I didn't sit at home behind a keyboard crying in my spare time, what I did was look for a better job. It took a little time and wasn't easy getting away to do job interviews but it was worth it. I could have stayed hating my job but I opted to move on. Why can't BE drivers do the same?

Could be money, could be location as well jobs down the country arent exactly plentiful most are up in the major cities like Dublin and Cork atm. What works for one person doesnt always work for another.

Deleted User wrote: »

So what you are saying is that we should excuse disgusting behavior by bus drivers because some people are dicks. The poor pets, they made the choice to take a customer facing job and if they can't handle interacting with customers then they should look for other work. BE drivers have it easy, maybe they do the odd long shift but absenteeism in there is epidemic. BE drivers want to have their cake and eat it, they get paid far more than private drivers and far more than most people working and then complain when they have to do long shifts. Boo Hoo Hoo, no one is forcing anyone to work for BE. If the drivers do not like their jobs then do what everyone else in the same position does and find another job.

Shouldnt excuse all of them. Some of the ones you described could be genuine nasty feckers but its not only the public who hate them, staff can hate them too as they drag others down. That being said the public arent perfect and arseholes arent resticted to just one job its univeral across the board.

Deleted User wrote: »

Please, all the drivers are doing is anglging to make life easier for themselves. They can blame everyone they want but and cry online about how awful it is but they have it pretty soft when compared to most. BE drivers have great benefits and salary and if they don't like it then they can leave. No one is forcing Koppenberg or any other driver to drive for BE. Let them find work elsewhere in a place that suits them more.

Again not everyone can leave a job just like that and even then other jobs pay inferior and leave you worse off. Grass aint greener on the other side you know.

Infini

Infini wrote: »

And are those jobs you talk about safety critical? They're unsafe, dangerous expecially when driving and actually legally unsound. 12 hour shifts on one job stocking shelves or doing office work arent the same as 12 hours on another like driving where mistake's can have fatal consequences.

I asked two drivers I know if they do 12 hours shifts, they laughed and said not a chance. They said that there are some drivers who will cover drivers who call in sick resulting in longer shifts.

Infini wrote: »

Could be money, could be location as well jobs down the country arent exactly plentiful most are up in the major cities like Dublin and Cork atm. What works for one person doesnt always work for another.

Plenty of jobs around the place and like other non bus drivers, why can BE drivers relocate for work. If a BE driver hates their job and still stays there then they only have themselves to blame.

Infini wrote: »

Shouldnt excuse all of them. Some of the ones you described could be genuine nasty feckers but its not only the public who hate them, staff can hate them too as they drag others down. That being said the public arent perfect and arseholes arent resticted to just one job its univeral across the board.

So we let them off because other people in other jobs can be dicks. Drivers knew upon applying for the job that they would have to deal with assholes, they made the choice. If they hate it so much then either leave their job or suck it up.

Infini wrote: »

Again not everyone can leave a job just like that and even then other jobs pay inferior and leave you worse off. Grass aint greener on the other side you know.

So what you are saying is that we should have sympathy for drivers because they are so well paid that finding another job that pays close to what they earn is difficult. No one in BE is being forced to work there, the drivers are greatly over paid for what they do and listening to them cry on forums and in the media garners no sympathy for them. No BE driver has to work there, if the place is so bad then leave. It is that simple but as you said not many other jobs offer such an attractive salary for such a low skilled job.

Flex

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I don't want to go on strike again

I don't want to lose more money, I don't want the place to shut down resulting in thousands of jobs lost and also don't want people to get more pissed off at us

.
.
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While I wouldn't be abusive to anyone and don't agree with that, let me try give you a brief sample of some issues from my perspective on why the public can seem pissed off

1. Youre in an organisation losing money, but demanding more money
2. You demand this based on nothing more than time served, no benefit to customer service offered up
3. You work for the government, so in Ireland this means you have a 'job for life'. This is an incredible perk and gift that is paid for by taxpayers, however instead of treating it as a very tangible and valuable perk (again, guaranteed using tax money), you abuse it and use it as a tool for being inflexible and greedy. For you there is no downside consequence of being on strike; the company wont fold no matter how inflexible you are. So, you abuse that perk from tax payers
4. The government has to subsidise your organisation, by demanding more money from them (for nothing) youre effectively demanding more money from the pockets of people youre putting out with your strike
5. Private operators offer better value for money and (in my experience) better customer service. For years state services had a monopoly and offered rubbish services to the country. These new operators have already caught up and surpassed state services. Anecdotally, examples off the top of my head;
   -I remember as a child my parents having to wait something like 8 weeks to receive a phone they ordered from Telecom Eireann.
   -Driving test wait times were nearly 30 weeks in 2007, after opting to use a private operator wait times had reduced to 9.5 weeks in 2009. the private operator was subsequently discontinued and wait times increased yet again.
   -A private operator offered to take up bin collection in Dun Laoighaire Rathdown in 2010, a route the council was losing €3m a year on, and offered to charge customers 20% less than the council price, guarantee no price increase to users and make the route profitable. Union reaction was to call a strike if residents were given the opportunity to use the better service.
6. Trade unions in this country (because of point 3) have ruined public services. Every single efficiency and improvement in agility and effectiveness of any government ran service is blocked, delayed or demands for more money are made to make the potential benefit not worth it. The HSE is the perfect example of this. Nearly €15B for a service like that, and the reason is unionised staff being inflexible and unresponsive to changing conditions and needs of service users and the state (again, enable by point 3)

While I emphasise I wouldn't be abusive of anyone, if staff are so upset and feel so put upon they should find a job elsewhere. You dislike your management, believe customers are abusive and nasty to you, think youre underpaid, think youre overworked. So find employment elsewhere, if youre worth what you claim you are your employer will improve your terms and conditions to try to prevent you leaving or being poached by another employer. Your problem (and I don't mean just you specifically), is that you are not worth what you are demanding, nobody else will employ you as generous terms and conditions as you have now, simple as.

In my working life, whenever I have wanted a pay rise I had to demonstrate that I added value to warrant it, and have before had to leave an employer because they wouldn't agree to a rate of pay I agreed with, so I found an employer who paid what I wanted. I didn't stomp my feet and whinge and just demand more money because I had been there another 12 months. That's part of the reason I have no sympathy for that carry on.

I hope there's more privatisation of services in this country, I'm actually a left-wing individual on social issues, but until such a point as there is

• accountability in use of public funds,
• meritocracy and performance based staff management (getting rid of automatic increments, for example) and
• a complete shift in attitude of publically funded services that mean that the service is ran for the benefit of the public rather than being seen as some bizarre extension of social welfare where the aim is give jobs to people who would otherwise be unemployed,

then I will completely support candidates who advocate privatisation of public services. Apologies if that sounds cold, but its my position formed by personal frustration and experience/understanding of the state of things in this country and publically funded services.

You put it better than I ever could, Flex.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

Here a shocking thought, if you hate your job that much then quit and get a 9-5 job. Plenty of people have it much worse than bus drivers, lots doing 12 hour shifts and not coming out with anything close to a BE driver salary.

You can cry and moan all you want on the internet but you won't find much sympathy apart from other drivers. Or, you can stop crying and find a new job. No one is forcing you to drive a bus and that have no life, that is a choice you are making.

Since the strike BE services have been awful, buses not showing up, busesr
arriving over an hour late. Drivers refusing to stop at bus stops full of people, drivers refusing to get off their holes to put out the disable ramp. Saw that happen quite a bit lately as according to a driver "it's not his job". There was also an incident during the past week where a driver in Galway was reported to the guards for pushing a passenger out of a bus and hurting them badly as the driver did not believe that the passengers child had special needs. People see this carry on and it's why they have so little respect for drivers. Respect is earned and BE drivers have done nothing to earn it. When I asked a driver recently why the bus was an hour late, he replied screaming "why don't you **** yourself" followed by "cu*t". I was polite and not aggressive and just curious as to why it was late.

Take a look at the BE twitter, its thousands and thousands upon tweets replying to issues people are having. People are fed up of drivers being rude and disrespectful and then crying poor mouth at every chance.

As I said Koppenberg, why not find a job that suits you better instead of complaining on boards? Plenty of 9-5 jobs out there, but I suppose the 9-5 salary would be a huge cut in pay to a BE driver.

or he can improve the job instead. if the job is improved, it will be a lasting legacy, for which future employees will enjoy. sympathy is nice but ultimately it means nothing, it won't improve his situation. since the strike, a number of staff have apparently taken redundantsy, meaning there are less drivers, which will go a long way to explain why there is now a greater issue with service delivery.
whether be drivers have earned respect or not isn't relevant, it does not justify anything. i have no way of verifying your claims, and twitter will usually bring out the whine over anything brigade. that's not to say there aren't genuine issues, there are and always will be with any company. the dregs who abuse these drivers must be dealt with hard, via being banned from using all public transport services within the state, and being forced to right a letter of apology to all staff working in the public transport industry. it is not the job of the poster to find another job, there aren't plenty of 9 to 5 jobs availible. the salary for a be driver isn't that high, and many 9 to 5 jobs can pay similar.

Deleted User wrote: »

Why not look for another job while still driving buses? I have been in the situation where I hated my job, where I was doing long shifts and had little time between finishing an 11 hour shift and starting another one. I didn't sit at home behind a keyboard crying in my spare time, what I did was look for a better job. It took a little time and wasn't easy getting away to do job interviews but it was worth it. I could have stayed hating my job but I opted to move on. Why can't BE drivers do the same?

they haven't the time. they are busy driving their busses. what you did isn't relevant, you obviously did have the time to look for other work. the fact that you had such time and were able to find new work does not make you anything special. i would suggest that you are the one crying rather then the bus eireann drivers.

Deleted User wrote: »

So what you are saying is that we should excuse disgusting behavior by bus drivers because some people are dicks. The poor pets, they made the choice to take a customer facing job and if they can't handle interacting with customers then they should look for other work. BE drivers have it easy, maybe they do the odd long shift but absenteeism in there is epidemic. BE drivers want to have their cake and eat it, they get paid far more than private drivers and far more than most people working and then complain when they have to do long shifts. Boo Hoo Hoo, no one is forcing anyone to work for BE. If the drivers do not like their jobs then do what everyone else in the same position does and find another job.



Please, all the drivers are doing is anglging to make life easier for themselves. They can blame everyone they want but and cry online about how awful it is but they have it pretty soft when compared to most. BE drivers have great benefits and salary and if they don't like it then they can leave. No one is forcing Koppenberg or any other driver to drive for BE. Let them find work elsewhere in a place that suits them more.

elements of the public are way more disgusting then the odd be driver. there is no evidence that absenteeism in bus eireann is epidemic, it's an allegation that so happens to be believed by in my view, anti-ps individuals with an agenda. be drivers don't get paid far more then private drivers, and if they do not like their jobs then they will not do what everyone else doesn't do, and find a new job, instead doing what everyone else actually does, and improve the terms of the job. everyone else does not find another job but improve the terms of their job.

Deleted User wrote: »

Plenty of jobs around the place and like other non bus drivers, why can BE drivers relocate for work. If a BE driver hates their job and still stays there then they only have themselves to blame.

not plenty of jobs, it's not the job of bus eireann drivers to re-locate for work when they can try and improve the work they are in, making it better for future generations.

Deleted User wrote: »

So we let them off because other people in other jobs can be dicks. Drivers knew upon applying for the job that they would have to deal with assholes, they made the choice. If they hate it so much then either leave their job or suck it up.

not suck it up or leave the job, but improve the job and challenge those who think it's okay to be abusive toards them.

Deleted User wrote: »

So what you are saying is that we should have sympathy for drivers because they are so well paid that finding another job that pays close to what they earn is difficult. No one in BE is being forced to work there, the drivers are greatly over paid for what they do and listening to them cry on forums and in the media garners no sympathy for them. No BE driver has to work there, if the place is so bad then leave. It is that simple but as you said not many other jobs offer such an attractive salary for such a low skilled job.

the drivers are not greatly over paid or over paid at all for what they do, they are paid the market rate for the job which in this country will be a good wage, as the cost of living is high and the job not the most attractive job, meaning incentives have to be made to attract staff to the job. listening to them tell the truth will garner sympathy from the reasonable, but i will agree won't from the unreasonable who want everyone but themselves to be on minimum wage with no rights. it is not that simple to leave, no amount of your dismissing will change that reality. they get paid what needs to be paid for a high skilled job.

end of the road

Flex wrote: »

While I wouldn't be abusive to anyone and don't agree with that, let me try give you a brief sample of some issues from my perspective on why the public can seem pissed off

Youre in an organisation losing money, but demanding more money
You demand this based on nothing more than time served, no benefit to customer service offered up
You work for the government, so in Ireland this means you have a 'job for life'. This is an incredible perk and gift that is paid for by taxpayers, however instead of treating it as a very tangible and valuable perk (again, guaranteed using tax money), you abuse it and use it as a tool for being inflexible and greedy. For you there is no downside consequence of being on strike; the company wont fold no matter how inflexible you are. So, you abuse that perk from tax payers
The government has to subsidise your organisation, by demanding more money from them (for nothing) youre effectively demanding more money from the pockets of people youre putting out with your strike
Private operators offer better value for money and (in my experience) better customer service. For years state services had a monopoly and offered rubbish services to the country. These new operators have already caught up and surpassed state services. Anecdotally, examples off the top of my head;
-I remember as a child my parents having to wait something like 8 weeks to receive a phone they ordered from Telecom Eireann.
-Driving test wait times were nearly 30 weeks in 2007, after opting to use a private operator wait times had reduced to 9.5 weeks in 2009. the private operator was subsequently discontinued and wait times increased yet again.
-A private operator offered to take up bin collection in Dun Laoighaire Rathdown in 2010, a route the council was losing €3m a year on, and offered to charge customers 20% less than the council price, guarantee no price increase to users and make the route profitable. Union reaction was to call a strike if residents were given the opportunity to use the better service.
Trade unions in this country (because of point 3) have ruined public services. Every single efficiency and improvement in agility and effectiveness of any government ran service is blocked, delayed or demands for more money are made to make the potential benefit not worth it. The HSE is the perfect example of this. Nearly €15B for a service like that, and the reason is unionised staff being inflexible and unresponsive to changing conditions and needs of service users and the state (again, enable by point 3)


While I emphasise I wouldn't be abusive of anyone, if staff are so upset and feel so put upon they should find a job elsewhere. You dislike your management, believe customers are abusive and nasty to you, think youre underpaid, think youre overworked. So find employment elsewhere, if youre worth what you claim you are your employer will improve your terms and conditions to try to prevent you leaving or being poached by another employer. Your problem (and I don't mean just you specifically), is that you are not worth what you are demanding, nobody else will employ you as generous terms and conditions as you have now, simple as.

In my working life, whenever I have wanted a pay rise I had to demonstrate that I added value to warrant it, and have before had to leave an employer because they wouldn't agree to a rate of pay I agreed with, so I found an employer who paid what I wanted. I didn't stomp my feet and whinge and just demand more money because I had been there another 12 months. That's part of the reason I have no sympathy for that carry on.

I hope there's more privatisation of services in this country, I'm actually a left-wing individual on social issues, but until such a point as there is

accountability in use of public funds,
meritocracy and performance based staff management (getting rid of automatic increments, for example) and
a complete shift in attitude of publically funded services that mean that the service is ran for the benefit of the public rather than being seen as some bizarre extension of social welfare where the aim is give jobs to people who would otherwise be unemployed,


then I will completely support candidates who advocate privatisation of public services. Apologies if that sounds cold, but its my position formed by personal frustration and experience/understanding of the state of things in this country and publically funded services.

all of that is inaccurate and just public perception based on agendas, so is ultimately meaningless.
private operators only supposibly offer better value for money on the profitible routes, bus eireann also have profitible routes. it means nothing, we would have to see what would happen if bus eireann no longer existed, i have no doubt prices would go up because the private operators have a captive market. Anecdotally means nothing as again it's only based on perception.

the union had to call the strike over bin collection in Dun Laoighaire Rathdown, as the private operator likely would have had to increase prices eventually, as they have a duty to make a profit. there is no evidence they would have been a better service, because they don't operate the service in the areas they wanted to operate. also, i'd wager that if they are anyway savvy, they only offered to operate the route because they saw a good opportunity to ultimately charge a big price in the long run and make a healthy profit, as is their job. a sensible company if so, and one i'd be investing in if i was the type to be investing in companies.

trade unions have ruined nothing, but been a force for good, it's ideaological dogma, undermining and bad management, that have destroyed public services in this country. privatization of public services won't solve those issues, and would bring greater issues, at greater cost, a cost i myself am not willing to pay.

there is no evidence the bus eireann staff aren't worth what they are looking for, it's just another perception based on an anti-ps worker agenda in my view. what you had to do in your working life isn't relevant to other places of work, it's the culture of your work/work place only. you may think you are special because you did what you did but you really aren't. i would suggest the reason you have no sympathy is because in my opinion, you have a bit of an anti-ps worker agenda.

you cannot be left wing and support privatization. you either support privatization or you don't, you clearly do support it and are using get out clauses to try and get away from admitting that you actually do support it. instead claiming that you are effectively forced into supporting something you know won't work because of some issues which won't be solved by what you support.
if you want more privatization you have to prepare to pay out more as tax payers have a duty to insure private companies running public services make a healthy profit. privatization won't bring accountability. meritocracy already exists in the ps and so does performance based staff management. if management are failing in their duty to enforce the rules that needs to be dealt with but privatization of vital public services won't bring it.

Jamie2k9

Deferred again, talks at WRC Monday.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

or he can improve the job instead. if the job is improved, it will be a lasting legacy, for which future employees will enjoy. sympathy is nice but ultimately it means nothing, it won't improve his situation. since the strike, a number of staff have apparently taken redundantsy, meaning there are less drivers, which will go a long way to explain why there is now a greater issue with service delivery.
whether be drivers have earned respect or not isn't relevant, it does not justify anything. i have no way of verifying your claims, and twitter will usually bring out the whine over anything brigade. that's not to say there aren't genuine issues, there are and always will be with any company. the dregs who abuse these drivers must be dealt with hard, via being banned from using all public transport services within the state, and being forced to right a letter of apology to all staff working in the public transport industry. it is not the job of the poster to find another job, there aren't plenty of 9 to 5 jobs availible. the salary for a be driver isn't that high, and many 9 to 5 jobs can pay similar.

So when BE and others say absenteeism is a big issue you don't believe but when a driver says "oh lots of people took redundancy" you do. I know a couple of bus drivers and they've told me what it is like, how drivers routinely ring in sick and are then sitting in a pub having a few as why not. As for saying twitter brings out the whine about anything brugade, take a look at the people tweeting to BE. It's questions such as "where is my bus" and "why is this bus over an hour late". Genuine questions but then again you have shown yourself to be nothing but a BE union shill.

end of the road wrote: »

they haven't the time. they are busy driving their busses. what you did isn't relevant, you obviously did have the time to look for other work. the fact that you had such time and were able to find new work does not make you anything special. i would suggest that you are the one crying rather then the bus eireann drivers.

And what about the time drivers have after work? I never said it made me special, just that like others have done when I was in a job with long hours that I did not enjoy. I went and used my free time to look for a better job, I didn't cry on the internet or go on strike like the drivers did earlie this year.

end of the road wrote: »

elements of the public are way more disgusting then the odd be driver. there is no evidence that absenteeism in bus eireann is epidemic, it's an allegation that so happens to be believed by in my view, anti-ps individuals with an agenda. be drivers don't get paid far more then private drivers, and if they do not like their jobs then they will not do what everyone else doesn't do, and find a new job, instead doing what everyone else actually does, and improve the terms of the job. everyone else does not find another job but improve the terms of their job.

There's also no evidence that so many drivers have taken redundancy that other poor drivers are being forced to work 12 hour days. I asked a few drivers I know and none of them are working 12 hour days but they do find themselves working a little extra to cover colleagues absenteeism. Drivers get paid a considerbale amount more than most, this Irish Times article has some information on it and is from September of last year where drivers were pair an "average of €48,819 while rivals pay between €30,000 and €39,000".

Since the strike the drivers are on more money than that and I ask you to show me a similar low skill job in which you can earn anywhere close to €48,819 a year. Most people who have an issue with their salary leave to find a new job that pays better. If BE drivers were in a private company and carried on the way they have they would all be sacked. In no world should a BE driver be paid almost/over 50k a year.

end of the road wrote: »

not plenty of jobs, it's not the job of bus eireann drivers to re-locate for work when they can try and improve the work they are in, making it better for future generations.

not suck it up or leave the job, but improve the job and challenge those who think it's okay to be abusive toards them.

It is when they are crying about how awful their jobs are. If they are not happy with the conditions then they are welcome to walk. No one is forcing them to work for BE.

As for abuse, no one deserves it but when you have a group like BE drivers it's hard to have sympathy. I have never seen customer facing employees as agressive, rude and insulting as BE drivers.

end of the road wrote: »

the drivers are not greatly over paid or over paid at all for what they do, they are paid the market rate for the job which in this country will be a good wage, as the cost of living is high and the job not the most attractive job, meaning incentives have to be made to attract staff to the job. listening to them tell the truth will garner sympathy from the reasonable, but i will agree won't from the unreasonable who want everyone but themselves to be on minimum wage with no rights. it is not that simple to leave, no amount of your dismissing will change that reality. they get paid what needs to be paid for a high skilled job.

They are not paid the market rate as private company bus drivers are paid quite a bit less than BE drivers. In that linked article above it shows that on average BE drivers are paid on average 9-18k more than private drivers and that is from before the drivers went on strike on got a pay increase.

No one has an issue with anyone earning a way and to say that people want them on minimum wage is just you doing your usual whatever the union tells you mentality. Everyone is entitled to a fair wage but when you are working in a company losing money hand over fist and earning considerably more than others in the same job it's not unreasonable to be happy to earn 50k a year. And since when is driving a bus a high skilled job, sure you have peoples lives in your hand but it is not high skill job.They get paid what they get paid because they held the country to ransom and will continue to threaten to do so again and again till they privatise BE and cut the dead weight.

If BE drivers are so highly skilled and good at their jobs why are other companies not trying to get BE drivers to come and work for them? Why are companies like GoBus and City Link not offering BE drivers pay increases and better shifts to tempt them away from the jobs that BE drivers seem to despise. Is it becuase BE drivers are grossly over paid for the job they do and not all that good at it?

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

So when BE and others say absenteeism is a big issue you don't believe but when a driver says "oh lots of people took redundancy" you do. I know a couple of bus drivers and they've told me what it is like, how drivers routinely ring in sick and are then sitting in a pub having a few as why not. As for saying twitter brings out the whine about anything brugade, take a look at the people tweeting to BE. It's questions such as "where is my bus" and "why is this bus over an hour late". Genuine questions but then again you have shown yourself to be nothing but a BE union shill.



And what about the time drivers have after work? I never said it made me special, just that like others have done when I was in a job with long hours that I did not enjoy. I went and used my free time to look for a better job, I didn't cry on the internet or go on strike like the drivers did earlie this year.



There's also no evidence that so many drivers have taken redundancy that other poor drivers are being forced to work 12 hour days. I asked a few drivers I know and none of them are working 12 hour days but they do find themselves working a little extra to cover colleagues absenteeism. Drivers get paid a considerbale amount more than most, this Irish Times article has some information on it and is from September of last year where drivers were pair an "average of €48,819 while rivals pay between €30,000 and €39,000".

Since the strike the drivers are on more money than that and I ask you to show me a similar low skill job in which you can earn anywhere close to €48,819 a year. Most people who have an issue with their salary leave to find a new job that pays better. If BE drivers were in a private company and carried on the way they have they would all be sacked. In no world should a BE driver be paid almost/over 50k a year.




It is when they are crying about how awful their jobs are. If they are not happy with the conditions then they are welcome to walk. No one is forcing them to work for BE.

As for abuse, no one deserves it but when you have a group like BE drivers it's hard to have sympathy. I have never seen customer facing employees as agressive, rude and insulting as BE drivers.




They are not paid the market rate as private company bus drivers are paid quite a bit less than BE drivers. In that linked article above it shows that on average BE drivers are paid on average 9-18k more than private drivers and that is from before the drivers went on strike on got a pay increase.

No one has an issue with anyone earning a way and to say that people want them on minimum wage is just you doing your usual whatever the union tells you mentality. Everyone is entitled to a fair wage but when you are working in a company losing money hand over fist and earning considerably more than others in the same job it's not unreasonable to be happy to earn 50k a year. And since when is driving a bus a high skilled job, sure you have peoples lives in your hand but it is not high skill job.They get paid what they get paid because they held the country to ransom and will continue to threaten to do so again and again till they privatise BE and cut the dead weight.

If BE drivers are so highly skilled and good at their jobs why are other companies not trying to get BE drivers to come and work for them? Why are companies like GoBus and City Link not offering BE drivers pay increases and better shifts to tempt them away from the jobs that BE drivers seem to despise. Is it becuase BE drivers are grossly over paid for the job they do and not all that good at it?

a bus eireann driver would know what is going on, considering he works for the company. i also know a couple of bus eireann drivers and they have also told me some have taken redundantsy and that the sickness figure is not high as claimed.

the time after work is for the drivers to rest, to insure they are in full spirits for the next shift. what you did or didn't do is of no consiquence to the rest of us, it's your issue. the bus eireann drivers were entitled to strike and anyone is entitled to strike if they so wish. if people choose not to go down that route that is fine, but others are allowed to choose that route and are entitled to do so.

no bus eireann driver is on 48000. some companies will always pay less then others but it means nothing. the drivers did not get a pay rise out of the strike for their high skilled job. most people who have an issue with their job try and improve the job rather then leave, they only leave if they cannot improve the job.

99% of be drivers behave the same as drivers in private companies. they do what they get paid for and operate to the best of their ability. there have been strikes in private bus companies all over the world, especially in the uk. to state it again, no be driver is paid 50k a year, and if they were, it would be because they should be. however they aren't, so it's mute.

it is not hard to have sympathy for people being abused for nothing. the only reason one would have no sympathy or find it hard to find sympathy in my view, is because they have an agenda toards those people. there is no excuse for drivers to be receiving abuse from dregs, and it is our job to have sympathy for those who suffer it, no excuses. 99% of be drivers are not rude, aggressive or insulting.

bus eireann drivers are paid the market rate as private companies are paying similar wages to their drivers. they get paid what they get paid because it's the wage that is needed to attract people to the job and to get them to stick around in the job. the staff will continue to insure they have good terms and conditions indefinitely, even should be be privatized for which there will be no dead weight to cut as they were cut already, as privatization doesn't stop strikes, fare rises, staff seeking pay rises. other companies have attracted be drivers to come and work for them and i believe a number did go over. pay won't be the only decider in the decisian to transfer jobs.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

a bus eireann driver would know what is going on, considering he works for the company. i also know a couple of bus eireann drivers and they have also told me some have taken redundantsy and that the sickness figure is not high as claimed.

the time after work is for the drivers to rest, to insure they are in full spirits for the next shift. what you did or didn't do is of no consiquence to the rest of us, it's your issue. the bus eireann drivers were entitled to strike and anyone is entitled to strike if they so wish. if people choose not to go down that route that is fine, but others are allowed to choose that route and are entitled to do so.

no bus eireann driver is on 48000. some companies will always pay less then others but it means nothing. the drivers did not get a pay rise out of the strike for their high skilled job. most people who have an issue with their job try and improve the job rather then leave, they only leave if they cannot improve the job.

99% of be drivers behave the same as drivers in private companies. they do what they get paid for and operate to the best of their ability. there have been strikes in private bus companies all over the world, especially in the uk. to state it again, no be driver is paid 50k a year, and if they were, it would be because they should be. however they aren't, so it's mute.

it is not hard to have sympathy for people being abused for nothing. the only reason one would have no sympathy or find it hard to find sympathy in my view, is because they have an agenda toards those people. there is no excuse for drivers to be receiving abuse from dregs, and it is our job to have sympathy for those who suffer it, no excuses. 99% of be drivers are not rude, aggressive or insulting.

bus eireann drivers are paid the market rate as private companies are paying similar wages to their drivers. they get paid what they get paid because it's the wage that is needed to attract people to the job and to get them to stick around in the job. the staff will continue to insure they have good terms and conditions indefinitely, even should be be privatized for which there will be no dead weight to cut as they were cut already, as privatization doesn't stop strikes, fare rises, staff seeking pay rises. other companies have attracted be drivers to come and work for them and i believe a number did go over. pay won't be the only decider in the decisian to transfer jobs.

High skilled jobs, paid the same as private company drivers. How long have you been drinking the union coolade? There is no point even trying to have a discussion with you about BE as you are nothing but a union shill who will toe the union line and eat up any crap they feed you. I suppose that every journalist who wrote about the pay BE drivers get was making it up and that any negative story about BE drivers is part of some conspiracy to discredit them. Be careful that you don't choke while swallowing all the utter tripe the union is feeding you.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

no bus eireann driver is on 48000. some companies will always pay less then others but it means nothing. the drivers did not get a pay rise out of the strike for their high skilled job. most people who have an issue with their job try and improve the job rather then leave, they only leave if they cannot improve the job.

99% of be drivers behave the same as drivers in private companies. they do what they get paid for and operate to the best of their ability. there have been strikes in private bus companies all over the world, especially in the uk. to state it again, no be driver is paid 50k a year, and if they were, it would be because they should be. however they aren't, so it's mute.

Bus Eireann said before the last strike in a full costed and written report that there were a significant number of drivers earning over €60k when all premiums, bonuses and overtime is included.

It also stated there were 1,378 drivers who worked overtime each day which equaled the cost of 1,636 drivers. It said if the company was to maximise driver efficiency, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers. This alone was a shocking statistic and needed to be addresses because the business was not delivering good value for money to the tax payers.

Essentially the company was saying that with modern working practices and rotas that make the best use of resources, they could save over €25m before even talking about changing any terms and conditions or rates and any other cost measures. That is some waste that was identified at that point and is pretty shocking to say the least.

Under the pre-strike arrangements, a good number of drivers were being paid for 9.5 hours a day and spending only 5.5 hours a day driving which meant staff were not delivering a cost effective service for their employer and this is inefficient, it is in the interests of everyone that such rotas are eliminated and replaced with ones which are more productive.

The senior, higher earning drivers had an easier schedule with less weekend work, and less actual revenue generating driving time than the people who were newer to the role. This gives the impression that the new entrants are doing the donkey work with more weekend work, harder schedules, less overtime and more driving hours whilst the people at the top of the tree are driving less, earning more, claiming more over-time, working on the nicer routes with the better schedules.

Now what seems to be happening is that the lads at the top are now having to do some donkey work too which they've spent years forcing on the junior staff via the marking in culture and they don't like it since they've had it so good for so long.

trellheim

sorry coming back here : is this the drivers kicking up at the rosters they got a payrise and agreed to ?

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

High skilled jobs, paid the same as private company drivers. How long have you been drinking the union coolade? There is no point even trying to have a discussion with you about BE as you are nothing but a union shill who will toe the union line and eat up any crap they feed you. I suppose that every journalist who wrote about the pay BE drivers get was making it up and that any negative story about BE drivers is part of some conspiracy to discredit them. Be careful that you don't choke while swallowing all the utter tripe the union is feeding you.

i base my opinions on issues on the facts given. i gave you the facts, by all means you don't have to like the information given but it won't change the reality.

howiya

end of the road wrote: »

a bus eireann driver would know what is going on, considering he works for the company. i also know a couple of bus eireann drivers and they have also told me some have taken redundantsy and that the sickness figure is not high as claimed.

Drivers taking redundancy will have increased the absenteeism rate in percentage terms among the remaining workforce.

markodaly

devnull wrote: »

Bus Eireann said before the last strike in a full costed and written report that there were a significant number of drivers earning over €60k when all premiums, bonuses and overtime is included.

It also stated there were 1,378 drivers who worked overtime each day which equaled the cost of 1,636 drivers. It said if the company was to maximise driver efficiency, there would be a requirement for 986 full-time drivers. This alone was a shocking statistic and needed to be addresses because the business was not delivering good value for money to the tax payers.

Essentially the company was saying that with modern working practices and rotas that make the best use of resources, they could save over €25m before even talking about changing any terms and conditions or rates and any other cost measures. That is some waste that was identified at that point and is pretty shocking to say the least.

Under the pre-strike arrangements, a good number of drivers were being paid for 9.5 hours a day and spending only 5.5 hours a day driving which meant staff were not delivering a cost effective service for their employer and this is inefficient, it is in the interests of everyone that such rotas are eliminated and replaced with ones which are more productive.

The senior, higher earning drivers had an easier schedule with less weekend work, and less actual revenue generating driving time than the people who were newer to the role. This gives the impression that the new entrants are doing the donkey work with more weekend work, harder schedules, less overtime and more driving hours whilst the people at the top of the tree are driving less, earning more, claiming more over-time, working on the nicer routes with the better schedules.

Now what seems to be happening is that the lads at the top are now having to do some donkey work too which they've spent years forcing on the junior staff via the marking in culture and they don't like it since they've had it so good for so long.

That is a decent summary right there. The figures you gave there was shocking to say the least. BE was effectively paying wages equivalent to 1,636 staff but with modern work practices this could be reduced to 986 full time staff.

10's of millions of euro wasted right there.

The older drivers would be the ones to shout loudest as they have more to lose. By the looks of it, they set the terms and conditions which benefits them the most. Rentseeking isnt it called?

What is the actual terms of the new rostering. Premium payments are to be done away with, in a new fortnightly roster? What are the max hours in this roster as per the agreement?

On a side issue, the NTA are due to announce tomorrow who was successful in tendering for the Waterford Urban routes.

I think it would be best for everyone that this goes out to a non Bus Eireann company. The only way I see it, to get better transport services is to break the stranglehold of CIE have over public transportation in this country. Then the government can start investing a bit more into actual improvement of services not lining up the pocket of old timers in CIE.

markodaly

The details of the last agreement was here and what is most pertinent is the rosters of the drivers.

http://www.siptu.ie/media/media_20376_en.pdf

It seems the unions don't have much of a leg to stand on. I suppose the cold hard reality is bitting them now.

devnull

markodaly wrote: »

What is the actual terms of the new rostering. Premium payments are to be done away with, in a new fortnightly roster? What are the max hours in this roster as per the agreement?

I cannot remember the exact details and don't have time for search, but the proposals that were voted for should be on lrc.ie if you search for them.

On a side issue, the NTA are due to announce tomorrow who was successful in tendering for the Waterford Urban routes.

I think it would be best for everyone that this goes out to a non Bus Eireann company. The only way I see it, to get better transport services is to break the stranglehold of CIE have over public transportation in this country. Then the government can start investing a bit more into actual improvement of services not lining up the pocket of old timers in CIE.

I've heard no indication that Bus Eireann are going to lose the routes.

I would say that realistically there is a limited number of possible bidders for Waterford, Dublin Coach, JJ Kavanagh and Bus Eireann are the ones I heard were in the race at one stage.

markodaly

devnull wrote: »

I've heard no indication that Bus Eireann are going to lose the routes.

I would say that realistically there is a limited number of possible bidders for Waterford, Dublin Coach, JJ Kavanagh and Bus Eireann are the ones I heard were in the race at one stage.

Yes, a pity if they go with BE again by default. Routes in Waterford should be easy enough to take over. If Go-Ahead are starting in Dublin next year, then surely a similar operator can do the same in Waterford.

end of the road

markodaly wrote: »

That is a decent summary right there.

how do you know that it's a decent summary.

markodaly wrote: »

I think it would be best for everyone that this goes out to a non Bus Eireann company.

on what basis. because it's not bus eireann isn't a good reason, seeing as bus eireann know the routes and there would be nothing to gain, the issues not going away as there will be no regulation or enforcement.

markodaly wrote: »

The only way I see it, to get better transport services is to break the stranglehold of CIE have over public transportation in this country.

CIE have no stranglehold. the only way to get better transport is through regulation and enforcement. no amount of braking up non-profit state companies and replacing with multiple profit making companies with all the wasteful duplication, for who we have a duty to pay a premium to so they can make a profit, will change the services or anything, apart from greater cost which could instead go into services rather then shareholders.

markodaly wrote: »

Then the government can start investing a bit more into actual improvement of services not lining up the pocket of old timers in CIE.

the government can currently invest in transport and have plenty of mechanisms to do it. most of the money is going into services and a small proportion toards pay, as staff have to be paid, they are not charity and cannot and will not work for nothing.
the reason the government won't invest more is because they don't wish to, and are using CIE as a convenient excuse to get out of it. if it's not CIE operating the service, it will be some other excuse to not give greater funding.

end of the road

markodaly wrote: »

The details of the last agreement was here and what is most pertinent is the rosters of the drivers.

http://www.siptu.ie/media/media_20376_en.pdf

It seems the unions don't have much of a leg to stand on. I suppose the cold hard reality is bitting them now.

the unions very much have a leg to stand on, the agreement states that rosters must be discussed and agreed, not imposed. the company tried to impose like they did last time, not learning their lesson that only talking and discussion will bring results.

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, a pity if they go with BE again by default. Routes in Waterford should be easy enough to take over. If Go-Ahead are starting in Dublin next year, then surely a similar operator can do the same in Waterford.

you are forgetting that operators other then bus eireann have to make a profit. even from the most loss making route. if the routes and the fee aren't attractive to them they will not bother bidding.

devnull

markodaly wrote: »

Yes, a pity if they go with BE again by default. Routes in Waterford should be easy enough to take over. If Go-Ahead are starting in Dublin next year, then surely a similar operator can do the same in Waterford.

BE Waterford city services are just over a dozen buses and a handful of routes and a new operator in Waterford is going to have to find a depot for them, which by no means impossible, is going to have a significant upfront cost for not a great return, a cost that Bus Eireann will not have to bear so essentially you're looking at an operator who is already established in Waterford.

So realistically it leaves JJ Kavanagh who already have the 607/617/627 and how they bid or if they bid really depends on how they would see such tendered services operating in conjunction with their pre-existing commercial services.

Dublin Coach have a very small base in Waterford with vehicles that operate overnight but you can't rule them out totally.

salonfire

horseburger wrote: »

Does he not consider, that if the people in employment with no Trade Union representation, had representation, that they might have better terms and conditions, [/URL]

So why were these Trade Union workers made redundant and salaries reduced?


https://www.independent.ie/business/world/in-brief-g4s-workers-accept-cost-cuts-29488075.html

Indo wrote:

SIPTU union members in the G4S security company have voted to accept company restructuring proposals which will cost 30 jobs.
SIPTU organiser Brendan Carr said the agreement means "approximately 30 voluntary job losses and changes to workers' terms and conditions of employment".

horseburger

markodaly wrote: »

That is a decent summary right there. The figures you gave there was shocking to say the least. BE was effectively paying wages equivalent to 1,636 staff but with modern work practices this could be reduced to 986 full time staff.

10's of millions of euro wasted right there.

The older drivers would be the ones to shout loudest as they have more to lose. By the looks of it, they set the terms and conditions which benefits them the most. Rentseeking isnt it called?

What is the actual terms of the new rostering. Premium payments are to be done away with, in a new fortnightly roster? What are the max hours in this roster as per the agreement?

On a side issue, the NTA are due to announce tomorrow who was successful in tendering for the Waterford Urban routes.

I think it would be best for everyone that this goes out to a non Bus Eireann company. The only way I see it, to get better transport services is to break the stranglehold of CIE have over public transportation in this country. Then the government can start investing a bit more into actual improvement of services not lining up the pocket of old timers in CIE.

If Bus Éireann, or CIE have a monopoly, or a stranglehold on routes, as you have suggested, what about the case of the Navan Dublin route, that I mentioned before?

The Navan Dublin route, is an example of a route, where Bus Éireann does not have stranglehold.

The Navan, Dunshaughlin, Dublin is covered by the 109, 109A, NX and 109X Bus Éireann services, but it is also served by another bus company, Sillan Tours, which has increased the number of services to and from Dublin over the last 18 months or so.

Sillan Tours last service from Dublin is 7.15pm Monday to Friday and has services to and from Dublin on Saturdays and Sundays.

Bus Éireann operates later services throughout the night to and from Navan and Dublin, with the 109, 109A, NX and 109X services.

Since the the 109A started operating 24 hours since July 2016, and the 109, 109X and NX services operating frequently throughout the day and late evening, there are services to and from Kells, Navan, Dunshaughlin, Ratoath, Ashbourne, Dublin Airport, Wilton Terrace, Beresford Place and Bus Aras, throughout the day and night.

If the rule, about bus companies applying to operate bus services, is that any bus company cannot operate a service that has an identical route to a service currently in operation, by another bus company, it seems to me that Sillan Tours, or any other bus company, could apply and perhaps be successful in an application to run later services, to and from Dublin and Navan, even thoughout the night, if they were interested in doing so.

But, the issue is, would they be interested in doing so, and why has it not happened?

It seems to me that there is nothing stopping any other bus operator from running later services to and from Dublin and Navan, as long as the route is not identical to another service currently in operation, and in this case the Sillan Tours service is a different route, considering it covers Cootehill and Shercock as well as Navan and Dunshaughlin - and it picks up in parts of Navan that are not served by the 109 - but doesn't cover places served by Bus Éireann like Kells, Ratoath, Ashbourne or Dublin Airport.

The concern I have, is that if services were taken from Bus Éireann - which seems to be what you are suggesting by using the term "break the stranglehold" - would other bus companies only be interested in operating certain services, like the routes to and from Dublin. I'm not sure that other companies would be interested in operating the other more local Bus Éireann services, for example rural routes between towns and villages within counties - services from villages into towns where they then connect with other services to other locations like Dublin.

I think what would end up happening, if many of the rural services ceased to be operated by Bus Éireann and began to be served by other companies, is less services, for example on rural routes between towns, outside Dublin, if other companies were to take over the operation of routes currently served by Bus Éireann.

I don't think that the assertion of saying Bus Éireann has a stranglehold, is accurate, considering that there are numerous other companies operating to and from Dublin and places like Belfast, Cork, Limerick, Galway and Kilkenny, for example Aircoach, Dublin Coach, City Link, Go Bus and JJ Kavanagh's.

There are also services between Dublin City Centre and places like Swords and Balbriggan, operated by companies, other than Bus Éireann which are useful for people commuting to and from Dublin City Centre every day.

McConnons runs services to and from Monaghan and Dublin daily. Collins Coaches cover Carrickmacross, Slane, Ardee and Dublin daily, and Matthews cover Dundalk to Dublin daily and have services late in the evening from Dublin to Dundalk.

Kearns run services to and from Birr and Tullamore to Dublin every day and they run local services as well. JJ Kavanagh's run local services also.

But, Bus Éireann operates a lot of rural routes between towns outside Dublin, that - it would appear - other bus companies have no interest in operating.

For example Bus Éireann operates a service between Drogheda, Slane, Navan and Trim, a route, connecting towns outside Dublin, a route that I don't think was ever covered by any other company.

Bus Éireann operates a service between Dundalk, Inniskeen and Carrickmacross. I am not sure of any other company that serves Inniskeen to Dundalk, or to Carrickmacross, on a different route.

There are local routes in Louth not served by companies other than Bus Éireann.
This item indicates local routes in Louth, connecting towns to each other, connections that are only served by Bus Éireann. http://www.thisisardee.ie/2017/02/14/bus-eireann-strike-cause-havoc-ardee-locals/

Has any other bus operator shown an interest in operating many of these types of daily service routes, in rural areas, that do not serve Dublin, but connect rural towns, locations that are currently only served by Bus Éireann?

horseburger

salonfire wrote: »

So why were these Trade Union workers made redundant and salaries reduced?


https://www.independent.ie/business/world/in-brief-g4s-workers-accept-cost-cuts-29488075.html

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't bother having some type of representation at all?

The point I was making was that the guy on the show, was contradicting himself.

On the one hand he was saying that there are employees in other areas, working with less security in their jobs, than the Luas drivers, who were going on strike, in co-operation with Trade Unions, but on the other hand, he seems to be giving out about Trade Unions representing Luas employees who were engaged in action, action endorsed by Trade Unions. He's moaning that because the Luas drivers have Trade Union representation, that they were able to make a stronger case, to ensure more security in their employment.

And he says this, after he was moaning about the strike, because he couldn't think of another way to get into Dublin City Centre, other than by the Luas.

So presumably, he doesn't care if the Luas employees ever end up having less security in their jobs, and he would justify his opinion, on the basis that employees in other areas have less security and less terms and conditions, and no Trade Union representation.

Ultimately, he doesn't seem to have much regard for any employee, in any area of employment trying to ensure they keep their terms and conditions, judging by what he said.

https://rte.ie/r.html?rii=b9_20962166_53_01-04-2016_

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/programmes/2016/0401/778867-liveline-friday-1-april-2016/

salonfire

horseburger wrote: »

Are you suggesting that people shouldn't bother having some type of representation at all?

The point I was making was that the guy on the show, was contradicting himself.

On the one hand he was saying that there are employees in other areas, working with less security in their jobs, than the Luas drivers, who were going on strike, in co-operation with Trade Unions, but on the other hand, he seems to be giving out about Trade Unions representing Luas employees who were engaged in action, action endorsed by Trade Unions. He's moaning that because the Luas drivers have Trade Union representation, that they were able to make a stronger case, to ensure more security in their employment.

And he says this, after he was moaning about the strike, because he couldn't think of another way to get into Dublin City Centre, other than by the Luas.

So presumably, he doesn't care if the Luas employees ever end up having less security in their jobs, and he would justify his opinion, on the basis that employees in other areas have less security and less terms and conditions, and no Trade Union representation.

Ultimately, he doesn't seem to have much regard for any employee, in any area of employment trying to ensure they keep their terms and conditions, judging by what he said.

https://rte.ie/r.html?rii=b9_20962166_53_01-04-2016_

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/programmes/2016/0401/778867-liveline-friday-1-april-2016/

You didn't answer my question.

Why were those Trade Union workers made redundant and salaries reduced?

Could it be because, unless they operate in monopoly that directly inconveniences the public such as IR, then Unions are of little protection to workers terms and conditions?

It's interesting to see people argue Unions are used in the public and state sector to defend their members conditions, yet are quiet when the same Union's members lose out in when dealing with private employers.

devnull

horseburger wrote: »

It seems to me that there is nothing stopping any other bus operator from running later services to and from Dublin and Navan, as long as the route is not identical to another service currently in operation, and in this case the Sillan Tours service is a different route, considering it covers Cootehill and Shercock as well as Navan and Dunshaughlin - and it picks up in parts of Navan that are not served by the 109 - but doesn't cover places served by Bus Éireann like Kells, Ratoath, Ashbourne or Dublin Airport.

Apart from the fact that they would have to compete with a taxpayer funded operator who can get almost €100m of subsidy a year when all grants, such as PSO, cost of vehicles and free travel pass funding and various other schemes are taken into account.

The concern I have, is that if services were taken from Bus Éireann - which seems to be what you are suggesting by using the term "break the stranglehold" - would other bus companies only be interested in operating certain services, like the routes to and from Dublin.

If they were given the same level playing field as Bus Eireann with access to the same publicly owned facilities, subsidy, free travel pass grants and free vehicles I don't see why not.

But, Bus Éireann operates a lot of rural routes between towns outside Dublin, that - it would appear - other bus companies have no interest in operating.

Bus Eireann operates rural routes because it gets payments that can be approaching €100m a year to fund it's costs such as vehicles, free travel pass use and the overall costs of operating the services. The private operators don't.

For example Bus Éireann operates a service between Drogheda, Slane, Navan and Trim, a route, connecting towns outside Dublin, a route that I don't think was ever covered by any other company.

It's more true to say the state contracts and pays and supplies the vehicles for Bus Eireann to operate a route between those places because they have deemed that it cannot be run without this funding. Funding to run such route to date has only been made to Bus Eireann.

Has any other bus operator shown an interest in operating many of these types of daily service routes, in rural areas, that do not serve Dublin, but connect rural towns, locations that are currently only served by Bus Éireann?

Unfortunately it is not possible to know as they have never had the opportunity to get free buses, accept the free travel pass and get such route subsidised so we don't know, perhaps we should put them out to tender and see is you are right?

bk

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

It has been a night mare since the last strike, people have been pissed off at us and still not forgiving us, people are ungodly rude to us, speak down to us like we are nothing, like sh!t , spit on us, call us abusive names and all sorts

Kopparberg, I'm genuinely shocked and sorry to hear that!

I'm not surprised at all that the public is pissed off with the ongoing strikes and I did warn that that would happen. But I'm shocked to hear people treating other individuals like that. I disagree with a lot of what the unions have been doing, but I know that most drivers are super nice people, who do a very difficult job and absolutely deserve respect for it.

No one should ever be treated like that. I'd keep in mind that people who are abusive towards you like that, reflects on the type of person they are.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

There is a strong belief among drivers that unions and management are in this together and we're all annoyed too, trying to either put us down and get rid of us or just playing with us altogether to see how far we go, but it's gotten stupid now at this stage and personally I don't have much hope anymore,

I don't know if their is collusion, I very much doubt it, but I've said it before and I'll say it again, it does feel like union bosses are walking their members down the garden path.

I think staff are being very poorly represented by their unions. The whole approach by the transport unions here seems to be completely out of touch with reality of modern Ireland and kind of insane. I think if they keep this up with constant strikes it is likely to lead to the destruction of the union movement and probably the break up of the CIE companies.

I honestly don't want to see the unions destroyed, but I do think they need to be reformed badly, more strategic, more professional, less political (but more politically savy). More like the transport unions in Germany, rarely go on strike, yet manage to negotiate good t&c's for their members behind closed doors, but also highly involved in trying to make their companies more efficient and effective.

I know EOTR believes that unions don't need public support. I think he is dead wrong. The union movement in Ireland in the 1920's was built with massive public support. But a few decades ago it started to lose public support and the unions have shrunken greatly since then. But now public support has gone from apathy about unions to being actively hostile against them and that is very dangerous for the ongoing health of the union movement IMO.

It gives the government the public support to slowly disassemble the union/CIE power.

I think the staff at CIE companies need to form a new union. One that is apolitical, but politically savy, one whose primary goal is to get the best deal for their members, while working to make their company profitable and keeping the public onside. A union that is aware that it needs to carefully balance the needs of it's members, with the needs of the government, company and public.

devnull

It's now been confirmed that implementation of the rosters has been put back again and further talks will take place in the LRC next week.