Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

Hilly Bill

Rootsblower wrote: »

No I did road knowledge with other qualified drivers. As I previously stated, on more than one occasion drivers refused to take me as was their right and still is.

Would you not return the favor?

Jamie2k9

Best way to solve any come backs is record the training sessions and store for a minimum period and if there is an accident and the unlikely event the mentor is picked up by investigators review the footage of how they were shown to do something. If it didn't follow procedure at the time then the mentor should be held accountable.

Given everything else from speed, to emergency braking, wrong cab working etc is all recorded shouldn't be a major issue.

Rootsblower

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Would you not return the favor?

We work in a vastly different railway than when I was training. Common sense is very much out of fashion. I know this is not a valid excuse to most of the posters here and believe me if I was not employed by Irish rail I would probably agree with you all.

Unfortunately there are too many things that can go wrong to risk my livelihood. I know this seems extreme to some but it’s mine and others point of view.

Rootsblower

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Best way to solve any come backs is record the training sessions and store for a minimum period and if there is an accident and the unlikely event the mentor is picked up by investigators review the footage of how they were shown to do something. If it didn't follow procedure at the time then the mentor should be held accountable.


Given everything else from speed, to emergency braking, wrong cab working etc is all recorded shouldn't be a major issue.

Not a bad idea.

goingnowhere

Rootsblower wrote: »

Not a bad idea.

Already is a front facing camera on the ICR and a blackbox

Rootsblower

goingnowhere wrote: »

Already is a front facing camera on the ICR and a blackbox

I think he’s talking inward facing camera

Rootsblower

goingnowhere wrote: »

Already is a front facing camera on the ICR and a blackbox

I think he’s talking inward facing camera

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

Already is a front facing camera on the ICR and a blackbox

There is but from a driver prospective recording what happens when you doing the mentoring in the cab is one way where they could be covered. I do suspect that if IE proposed such a measures other excuses would be found.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There is but from a driver prospective recording what happens when you doing the mentoring in the cab is one way where they could be covered. I do suspect that if IE proposed such a measures other excuses would be found.

There's no way that the unions would accept being monitored on CCTV - they'd call it nannying and would probably only agree on the basis that the CCTV cannot be used in any disciplinary action which makes the whole idea redundant.

gooddarts10

Why doesn’t the company pay Balfour Beatty OTM Drivers to train the drivers they have the route knowledge and the trainees have the unit experience probably would only have to get extra monitoring from a DTE

Jamie2k9

devnull wrote: »

There's no way that the unions would accept being monitored on CCTV - they'd call it nannying and would probably only agree on the basis that the CCTV cannot be used in any disciplinary action which makes the whole idea redundant.

Yeah they may whinge but it would show them up for lying about mentoring issues.

end of the road

gooddarts10 wrote: »

Why doesn’t the company pay Balfour Beatty OTM Drivers to train the drivers they have the route knowledge and the trainees have the unit experience probably would only have to get extra monitoring from a DTE

because the mentor drivers would need the full knowledge to insure the trainee is operating correctly. the trainee only having the unit knowledge and the mentor only having route knowledge but not the unit knowledge is likely not going to work well in practice.

gooddarts10

end of the road wrote: »

because the mentor drivers would need the full knowledge to insure the trainee is operating correctly. the trainee only having the unit knowledge and the mentor only having route knowledge but not the unit knowledge is likely not going to work well in practice.

WRC talks have been scheduled for the 15th so you never know it might actually get sorted out

markodaly

The train drivers obviously got trained up themselves in years gone past, so they are on a loser straight away if this goes to a strike.

How do they train drivers in the rest of the world, like its not exactly re-inventing the wheel here?

kingshankly

markodaly wrote: »

The train drivers obviously got trained up themselves in years gone past, so they are on a loser straight away if this goes to a strike.

How do they train drivers in the rest of the world, like its not exactly re-inventing the wheel here?

Need to set some things straight here folks we have no problem training drivers and don’t want any money for it. The problem lies with the way all responsibility for trainee errors are now recorded on the mentor drivers record even if the trainee has an incident years later the mentor driver comes under scrutiny
You could easily see yourself on a standard for mistakes made by a trainee

markodaly

kingshankly wrote: »

Need to set some things straight here folks we have no problem training drivers and don’t want any money for it. The problem lies with the way all responsibility for trainee errors are now recorded on the mentor drivers record even if the trainee has an incident years later the mentor driver comes under scrutiny
You could easily see yourself on a standard for mistakes made by a trainee

Has a driver ever lost his job because of a mistake by a Trainee?

How do they do it in the rest of the world?

devnull

kingshankly wrote: »

Need to set some things straight here folks we have no problem training drivers and don’t want any money for it. The problem lies with the way all responsibility for trainee errors are now recorded on the mentor drivers record even if the trainee has an incident years later the mentor driver comes under scrutiny.

The company HR Department cannot and I'm sure nor will it's insurance allow it, to give mentors a blanket assurance that they will never be held accountable for mistakes that are made by the people that they mentor since they have to protect themselves in cases where mentors teach someone grossly unsafe practices or give them inappropriate advice that could lead to a serious incident.

Grandeeod

kingshankly wrote: »

Need to set some things straight here folks we have no problem training drivers and don’t want any money for it. The problem lies with the way all responsibility for trainee errors are now recorded on the mentor drivers record even if the trainee has an incident years later the mentor driver comes under scrutiny
You could easily see yourself on a standard for mistakes made by a trainee

If true, its a load of ridiculous bollocks. Therefore I'm currently tracking down a few past College tutors regarding a few issues I've had - just in case.

Rootsblower

Grandeeod wrote: »

If true, its a load of ridiculous bollocks. Therefore I'm currently tracking down a few past College tutors regarding a few issues I've had - just in case.

It’s true unfortunately. As I said in one of my previous posts I know of 2 drivers disciplined over trainee mistakes.

Bubbaclaus

kingshankly wrote: »

Need to set some things straight here folks we have no problem training drivers and don’t want any money for it. The problem lies with the way all responsibility for trainee errors are now recorded on the mentor drivers record even if the trainee has an incident years later the mentor driver comes under scrutiny
You could easily see yourself on a standard for mistakes made by a trainee

Seems fair enough to me, if someone I trained up in work has a serious **** up it would fall on me also. They would have a serious look at the quality of training I provided and why I signed them off as training completed if they weren't up for the task.

end of the road

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Seems fair enough to me, if someone I trained up in work has a serious **** up it would fall on me also. They would have a serious look at the quality of training I provided and why I signed them off as training completed if they weren't up for the task.

not years down the line. a little while after the trainee has finished, sure, fair enough. but years down the line they have plenty of their own experience and they would have been inspected to insure they are operating correctly.
no way in hell would i be taking responsibility for a trainee messing up years down the line. my work is long done by then.

Jamie2k9

kingshankly wrote: »

Need to set some things straight here folks we have no problem training drivers and don’t want any money for it. The problem lies with the way all responsibility for trainee errors are now recorded on the mentor drivers record even if the trainee has an incident years later the mentor driver comes under scrutiny
You could easily see yourself on a standard for mistakes made by a trainee

So what changes would you like made bearing in mind a mentor must bear some degree of responsibility because there may well be cases were poor mentoring is responsible. Driver manager in the cab monitoring your work? Minimum period of 1 year and after they can't blame you?

Have drivers discussed changes with union to bring to IE which are reasonable?

trellheim

I fail to see what the issue is.

If the trainee has a spad under a mentor and it turns out the mentor should have caught it, do people not think there should be any action taken ?

How do people think the mentoring should happen, then ?

Hilly Bill

kingshankly wrote: »

Need to set some things straight here folks we have no problem training drivers and don’t want any money for it. The problem lies with the way all responsibility for trainee errors are now recorded on the mentor drivers record even if the trainee has an incident years later the mentor driver comes under scrutiny
You could easily see yourself on a standard for mistakes made by a trainee

That's a bit absurd to hold a mentor at fault years later, if that's the case then why not hold the training school at fault?

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

The company HR Department cannot and I'm sure nor will it's insurance allow it, to give mentors a blanket assurance that they will never be held accountable for mistakes that are made by the people that they mentor since they have to protect themselves in cases where mentors teach someone grossly unsafe practices or give them inappropriate advice that could lead to a serious incident.

How long is the drivers training course? They will already know how to drive and what to do or not to do. The mentor is basically a Co driver and will hardly tell the newbie to forget what the school told them and to try it their way. It's a cop out by the company if they want to blame a mentor for mistakes made when the mentor wasn't even there. If the DTE thinks the newbie is companent to drive solo then it's on him if mistakes are made later.

Hilly Bill

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Seems fair enough to me, if someone I trained up in work has a serious **** up it would fall on me also. They would have a serious look at the quality of training I provided and why I signed them off as training completed if they weren't up for the task.

If you trained them for 12 weeks and then sent them out with a mentor for a few days, whose fault would it be if the trainee made a mistake?

Hilly Bill

Rootsblower wrote: »

It’s true unfortunately. As I said in one of my previous posts I know of 2 drivers disciplined over trainee mistakes.

What was the nature of the mistakes and how could a mentor have prevented it?

Cookie_Monster

kingshankly wrote: »

Need to set some things straight here folks we have no problem training drivers and don’t want any money for it. The problem lies with the way all responsibility for trainee errors are now recorded on the mentor drivers record even if the trainee has an incident years later the mentor driver comes under scrutiny

Years later. Is there no regular reviews with drivers, re-testing, simulator work? Surely it cannot all fall back upon your original mentoring and nothing since?

fxotoole

end of the road wrote: »

not years down the line. a little while after the trainee has finished, sure, fair enough. but years down the line they have plenty of their own experience and they would have been inspected to insure they are operating correctly.
no way in hell would i be taking responsibility for a trainee messing up years down the line. my work is long done by then.

This, I agree with. Pity the unions can't get this across in a clear concise manner. They seem to have a communication problem and can't their more reasonable points across. Most people I talk to just see this latest industrial dispute as unreasonable drivers looking for more money.

dermo888

Thats a case of a publicity exercise. Its also that, the likes of civilians, including myself, generally don't have a clue with the job of driving a train entails, and the various parameters involved. It LOOKS easy, but its a precision art to stop a 200 Meter long, 300 tonne train, going at 120kmh and bring it to a 'clean' safe stop in the right distance. They are quite content to take it for granted that everything works, without knowing why it works. They don't need to know. When they don't know - they criticise.
The mainstream media may have their own agenda to portray the Union spokesman in the most unreasonable, greedy, and militant style possible. Thats been the agenda of the right for the past 40 years and the public have fallen for it. 
Not everyone is cut out to be a train driver. Its a vocation more than a job, bearing more similarities to the military in terms of rigid application of rules and regulations. Thats whats ensured the safety of Iarnrod Eireann since the Cherryville disaster of 1983, and long may that continue. 
Lets put that into perspective - since then over 10,000 people have died on Irish Roads, and there have been 0....ZERO fatalities on the railway network in Ireland.