Unions warn of train strike as staff demand pay increase

Topgear on Dave

start of the rail wrote: »

well said my friend, posters on boards should not dictate to the lads who work for the public in irish rail.

Surely posters on boards are the public?

Hilly Bill

Infini wrote: »

To be honest from what I heard the main reason the driver's have been refusing to mentor or take responsibility is partially down to the way the company tries to scapegoat people if something were to happen. Were talking about one of these mentee's having an incident and the driver who mentored them being pulled up on it years or even over a decade later when any number of things could have changed in the meantime. It's one thing if something were to happen months after being passed out but trying to make other drivers liable for the mistakes years later isn't something that would sit well with anyone.

They won't get done a few years later. They won't be held accountable for something that happens when they are not even in the cab with them.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So why are unions not getting such a message out there??

Because its not true.

Hilly Bill

Infini wrote: »

This will be confined to the driving grade only as well not the whole company. Noone but the driver's will be striking as its related only to their grade not the whole company.

As for the whole issue it should've been sorted out ages ago I agree but the whole point is you cant just make everyone do something and expect them to agree to be liable for anything that goes wrong.

It's never confined to the driver grade, they strike, they picket and others won't cross.

Hilly Bill

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

It is likely the other grades will not cross the picket. Even if they did, what work can they do if trains are not running?

Plenty.

Hilly Bill

Infini wrote: »

Please tell me exactly how its possible to force someone to be liable for something they neither agreed to or signed up to? Some people wont sign up no matter how much cash is offered because they simply dont trust the company period.

Believe it was said a fair few posts back the reason its voluntary is because of the nature of that job in the first place.



Pickets would be at the depots only. They wont block the regular staff from going to work because 1) they're not involved and 2) the company has to pay those staff as well since theyre not on strike.

Of course they will, most will have to cross a picket to go to work.

Hilly Bill

Sounds like that they want the pay rise to mentor yet only want to volunteer to do it even though they are already getting expenses to do it plus the pay rise. Not a hope I'm supporting this one.

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

Since 2001 there has been a formal mentor driving role, this was part of the new deal voted and accepted by the unions. Drivers who meet the required experience/record may volunteer.

Mentor driving only came about in 2005 and was never part of the 2001 deal.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Sounds like that they want the pay rise to mentor yet only want to volunteer to do it even though they are already getting expenses to do it plus the pay rise. Not a hope I'm supporting this one.

What expenses? Mentoring does not incur any expenses.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's never confined to the driver grade, they strike, they picket and others won't cross.

The union will issue a specific instruction to non-driving grades to pass the picket and other grades will do just this.

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

The issue here is the union has instructed its members not to take part in mentoring. So there are staff who previously did mentor who now are under orders of the local shop steward that its union policy not to. The union denies this but its obviously the case.

I don't think so, all official (and off the record) correspondence with the WRC/LC, IE and the unions say otherwise.

Off the record correspondance especially has told us that the unions are very disappointed that drivers stopped mentoring and it's an unnecessary headache for them.

Hilly Bill

GM228 wrote: »

The union will issue a specific instruction to non-driving grades to pass the picket and other grades will do just this.

Can't see that happening and it's a bit unfair. I could go go to work anyway and still get strike pay. They would be loosing a days pay and I'd gain €40

goingnowhere

Irish Rail publicly claim the refusal to mentor is coordinated action

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-court-action-2722524-Apr2016/
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irish-rail-in-warning-to-staff-393966.html

The unions deny this

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Can't see that happening and it's a bit unfair. I could go go to work anyway and still get strike pay. They would be loosing a days pay and I'd gain €40

Why is it unfair? This is exactly what happened in August 2014, the unions advised all non driving grades to go to work as normal and this was supported and encouraged by drivers. You would not get €40 strike pay by the way.

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

Irish Rail publicly claim the refusal to mentor is coordinated action

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-court-action-2722524-Apr2016/
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/irish-rail-in-warning-to-staff-393966.html

The unions deny this

Claims mean nothing, this was a knee jerk reaction which resulted in many solicitors letters passing hands and a LC hearing where it was established (and accepted by both sides) that mentoring was voluntary and the decision to withdraw was a driver one with no influence by the unions.

Legal letters from IE confirmed the coordinated action was taken by drivers and as such they didn't have any legal protections - hence why they called it unlawful industrial action. IE accused the unions of playing a part because they refused (rightly) to tell drivers to mentor.

Jamie2k9

GM228

Any idea what proposal the union put forward last Thursday and have IE suspended the pay increase yet?

Waiting 3 days to announce a ballot was also rather uncharacteristic of them.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

GM228

Any idea what proposal the union put forward last Thursday and have IE suspended the pay increase yet?

Engagement on the long term issue of a reduced working week, and mentoring remaining voluntary/to be advertised as a role.

Increase not suspended as IEs position has not changed.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Waiting 3 days to announce a ballot was also rather uncharacteristic of them.

Legal advice was sough on some aspects before it was announced.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

Engagement on the long term issue of a reduced working week, and mentoring remaining voluntary/to be advertised as a role.

Increase not suspended as IEs position has not changed.

I'm sure IE wouldn't care if it stayed voluntary but the problem is could the union convince enough drivers to participate. If not then its fruitless. They did nothing to bring a solution just grand standing.

Legal advice was sough on some aspects before it was announced.

I'm rather disappointed, they had 3 weeks and the outcome was a dead cert back then. Not very organised!

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'm sure IE wouldn't care if it stayed voluntary but the problem is could the union convince enough drivers to participate. If not then its fruitless. They did nothing to bring a solution just grand standing.

To be fair the Labour Court (who are the experts when it comes to industrial relations issues) have previously said they could not envisage any way of resolving this. The unions may have offered more however, this is all the info the WRC has heard, until they officially come before the WRC we won't know if there waa more suggested.

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I'm rather disappointed, they had 3 weeks and the outcome was a dead cert back then. Not very organised!

I believe the unions were awaiting us to intervene and probably were not expecting a one to one meeting. Intervention may happen this week however.

Jamie2k9

Indeed I would expect the WRC to entertain them for a day or two

Infini

GM228 wrote: »

Engagement on the long term issue of a reduced working week, and mentoring remaining voluntary/to be advertised as a role.

Increase not suspended as IEs position has not changed.

Legal advice was sough on some aspects before it was announced.

Makes sense to have the mentoring advertised as a specific role and just pay the extra to those who wish to do it as opposed to trying to strongarm the whole grade into doing something they dont want or have to do.

gooddarts10

Infini wrote: »

Makes sense to have the mentoring advertised as a specific role and just pay the extra to those who wish to do it as opposed to trying to strongarm the whole grade into doing something they dont want or have to do.

I think the problem is that nobody will apply for the role for fear of being bullied by fellow drivers who seem to think it’s perfectly acceptable to use the trainees ( who are union members) as leverage against the company

Working class heroes

gooddarts10 wrote: »

I think the problem is that nobody will apply for the role for fear of being bullied by fellow drivers who seem to think it’s perfectly acceptable to use the trainees ( who are union members) as leverage against the company

Soon find out, mentoring role has just been advertised.

L1011

gooddarts10 wrote: »

I think the problem is that nobody will apply for the role for fear of being bullied by fellow drivers who seem to think it’s perfectly acceptable to use the trainees ( who are union members) as leverage against the company

Screwing younger/newer members when it suits is a common trait of unions here. Public sector new entrant pay, Dublin Bus marking in system etc.

Don't think I'd do the mentoring role for the money offered myself though

Hilly Bill

It's just stalling tactics to get as much extra money as possible.

joeysoap

NTA spokeswoman on Sean O’Rouke this morning. Could close all mainlines except Dublin to Cork,Dublin to Limerick and Dublin to Belfast and Cork suburban unless IE get €450 million in the next few years. Could close 2 immediately an save a packet and may 2 more later (incl limerick to Galway white elephant).
Surprised Dublin to Galway included. Not many drivers required then.

I don’t understand the mentoring problems, mentoring happens in every walk of life including piloting aircraft, hospital doctors, nursing, even down to postmen being shown a route. What’s the problem with drivers? Once you have ‘mentored’ somebody up to a satisfactory level, then it up to IE to ‘test’ ( and maybe revisit) that driver. It’s not the mentors responsibility what happens in the following years. Anyway most people improve over the years with experience, not disimprove.

GM228

joeysoap wrote: »

NTA spokeswoman on Sean O’Rouke this morning. Could close all mainlines except Dublin to Cork,Dublin to Limerick and Dublin to Belfast and Cork suburban unless IE get €450 million in the next few years. Could close 2 immediately an save a packet and may 2 more later (incl limerick to Galway white elephant).
Surprised Dublin to Galway included. Not many drivers required then.

https://independent.ie/irish-news/rural-rail-networks-under-threat-without-460m-rescue-package-36572515.html

In the news the day after a ballot is announced, coincidence?

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

joeysoap wrote: »

NTA spokeswoman on Sean O’Rouke this morning. Could close all mainlines except Dublin to Cork,Dublin to Limerick and Dublin to Belfast and Cork suburban unless IE get €450 million in the next few years. Could close 2 immediately an save a packet and may 2 more later (incl limerick to Galway white elephant).
Surprised Dublin to Galway included. Not many drivers required then.

https://independent.ie/irish-news/rural-rail-networks-under-threat-without-460m-rescue-package-36572515.html

In the news the day after a ballot is announced, coincidence?

Could be but more likely to do with investment decisions been taken by Government in the next few weeks.

Plenty in IE would see it close before moving on any issue.

GM228

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's just stalling tactics to get as much extra money as possible.

They were offered decent money and rejected and are heading (potentially) towards an all out strike, I don't believe it was ever about money.

joeysoap

GM228 wrote: »

https://independent.ie/irish-news/rural-rail-networks-under-threat-without-460m-rescue-package-36572515.html

In the news the day after a ballot is announced, coincidence?

Something like that takes more than a day or two to organize , so I’d say coincidence. Sho also mentioned that FTA accounted for 7.5% of revenue but 12,5% of travel. Up on the other hand any increase in the FTA would lead to a decrease on the public obligation subsidy.

Looks like the train service in UK is becoming a political football.