Has our plumber taken us for a ride

Sleeper12

Deleted User wrote:

That's why I'm questioning the OP's position on this situation. Those rates are what I figured a plumber would charge.

But this plumber is cash in hand. You can't use going rates against a guy charging cash in hand.
I don't mean to go against the Op but if you talk cash in hand you have no come back. If you want to deal outside of the System then you stay out of the System.

el tel

I've seen movies where the plumbers end up working for free. Usually it's in households where the woman is so poor she can't afford underpants.

freedominacup

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Then I guess there's no point suggesting to her the next time that she answers the door in a see sexy negligee and ask if he'll take any other form of payment.... ☺ï¸

MOD <snip>. cut that out or you will be getting your coat.







I'll get me coat.

Sleeper12

el tel wrote:

I've seen movies where the plumbers end up working for free. Usually it's in households where the woman is so poor she can't afford underpants.

I don't known about working for free but most of us do free work. Even though I might cross the m50 toll bridge I might not change a call out fee or any fee if I felt I didn't do much.
I might only be there a few minutes due to an airlock or something. My call out is 75 euro. Quite often I don't charge for something like this.

waynerooney

What will the plumber do if you don't pay him €450? Unless you fear something worse than the pain of paying the 450, then my suggestion is to pay €70 for first hour and €30 per hour thereafter. He's making up rates so nothing stopping from doing it too. That's €310.

Some people saying that you didn't ask up front how much to pay. Using that logic, plumber didn't say up front how much he would charge.

Don't be intimidated. The €450 is not fair. The way the bill was sprung on you/your wife was not fair.

€450 cash in the hand for a day's work? Well, I have to earn well over €900 to come out with €450 per day after tax - and I don't get anything near €900 per day. Time to bring this entitled little flower with his evident PhDs in the finer points of plumbing from Harvard University down to earth with a ferocious bang:

I'd very much be reporting him on this website:

Reporting shadowy economy to Revenue

and, just for good measure, I'd let these guys know also:

Reporting social welfare fraud

It would be immoral of you to let this greedy MOD <snip>, who aside from screwing you is a parasite on the state infrastructure funded by our taxes, away with this.

bucketybuck

waynerooney wrote: »

What will the plumber do if you don't pay him €450? Unless you fear something worse than the pain of paying the 450, then my suggestion is to pay €70 for first hour and €30 per hour thereafter. He's making up rates so nothing stopping from doing it too. That's €310.

Why pay €310 then, if the OP is going to dictate what should be paid then just throw €100 at him and inform him how lucky he is that you deigned to even pay that much. Best throw the notes on the ground at his feet as well to ensure he gets the message.

roy rodgers

Sleeper12 wrote: »

But this plumber is cash in hand. You can't use going rates against a guy charging cash in hand.
I don't mean to go against the Op but if you talk cash in hand you have no come back. If you want to deal outside of the System then you stay out of the System.

Cash in hand is cheating the system and its a no no. Personally I never do the "cash" job . At the end of the year I must make a return and i pay my dues There's enough around here boss that only wanna sell a pony!

waynerooney

bucketybuck wrote: »

Why pay €310 then, if the OP is going to dictate what should be paid then just throw €100 at him and inform him how lucky he is that you deigned to even pay that much. Best throw the notes on the ground at his feet as well to ensure he gets the message.

Dramatics aside, I assume you consider my suggested payment of €310 as an insult to the plumber. Ask 1,000 people if they'd take €310 cash in hand for a days' work... I don't think one person would find that insulting.

K.Flyer

I know people earning 600+ a day, and all they fcukin' do is sit on their arses at their computers typing on a keyboard. Money for doing nothing!!!

smelly sock

K.Flyer wrote: »

I know people earning 600+ a day, and all they fcukin' do is sit on their arses at their computers typing on a keyboard. Money for doing nothing!!!

I doubt thay you know anyone earning 600 for that.

K.Flyer

smelly sock wrote: »

I doubt thay you know anyone earning 600 for that.

Yes I do actually.
And I know an engineer who will not do a site visit for less than 500 euro plus vat.

smelly sock

K.Flyer wrote: »

Yes I do actually.

Is that in the hand?

K.Flyer

One of them has had a offer of a new job offering more money.
That type of earning is out there, you just need to be well qualified, experienced and have a strong value on what you are worth.
These people have and thats what they do and that what they earn. A few earn even higher than that.
But you don't get to those levels sitting on your hole thinking the world owes you. You have to be motivated to get up and work to achieve it.
At the end of the day the earn by sitting in front of a computer, typing on a keyboard and clicking a mouse.

Don't get the fixation with what others should be allowed to earn but I do feel the important part of the OP post is the no invoice which means no warranty/guarantee, paying no vat is fantastic for cheeky chappies to save money but not so clever if accountability is required.

EHP

OK plumber rate is €50 per hour plus vat.
Most service and maintenance trades will be lucky if they average 6 billable hours a day so that's 6 x 50 = 300 per day and x 5 = €1500 per week x 48 working weeks in the year = €72000 per year.
Costs
Public liability insurance €800
Van insurance €700
Tyres once year €320
Tools and equipment per year €2400
Accountant €1000
Van tax €333
Service etc €200
Van lease €2400
Advertising €1800

Total cost €9953

So take home before tax is €62047

Now I have kept costs to the minimum and the above would be a dream year for any trade person. But we all know not all customers pay many think they can set the rates themselves. Some then only pay in installments and expect us to go and collect the money at our own cost plus I probably have left out some costs.

Payee plumber gets an average of €20 per hour before tax gets paid for 40 hours a week and 52 weeks of the year totaling €41600 and doesn't have to deal with the BS.

I bet you not one trades person has ever had the perfect year where no one catches them and no one wastes there time but yeah let you the customer decide what to pay.

In my opinion €50 per hour is average and you should pay the plumber and stop wasting his time it's customers like you who are the cause of rates rising because if you don't pay we still have to pay for everything else so have to up the rates to make up the loss.

veetwin

EHP wrote: »

OK plumber rate is €50 per hour plus vat.


I bet you not one trades person has ever had the perfect year where no one catches them and no one wastes there time but yeah let you the customer decide what to pay.

In my opinion €50 per hour is average and you should pay the plumber and stop wasting his time it's customers like you who are the cause of rates rising because if you don't pay we still have to pay for everything else so have to up the rates to make up the loss.

OP here. I don't have a particular problem with his rate of €50 per hour but I think he should have been up front about from the start.

The problem is though we had a very reasonable expectation that there was no more than 5 hours max in our job. On the evidence I saw he was unbelievably slow and took loads of calls during the day.

To those who say that I should pay what ever he asks I would question what if he said his fee was €100 per hour? (Plus vat if I want a receipt)

Sleeper12

I'm on a plumbing Facebook group. A young plumber posted a question a few days ago. What can he do about someone not paying him for a boiler he just fitted. Forgetting about his wages he's down 1k for the materials.
He can take them to court & win but it costs money to do that and it can take years.

Things like that don't happen too often but they are built into every price the same way Dunnes Stores would build in slippage (shop lifting) into their price.
I'm with Gary above. There should be an invoice with every job

listermint

EHP wrote: »

OK plumber rate is €50 per hour plus vat.
Most service and maintenance trades will be lucky if they average 6 billable hours a day so that's 6 x 50 = 300 per day and x 5 = €1500 per week x 48 working weeks in the year = €72000 per year.
Costs
Public liability insurance €800
Van insurance €700
Tyres once year €320
Tools and equipment per year €2400
Accountant €1000
Van tax €333
Service etc €200
Van lease €2400
Advertising €1800

Total cost €9953

So take home before tax is €62047

Now I have kept costs to the minimum and the above would be a dream year for any trade person. But we all know not all customers pay many think they can set the rates themselves. Some then only pay in installments and expect us to go and collect the money at our own cost plus I probably have left out some costs.

Payee plumber gets an average of €20 per hour before tax gets paid for 40 hours a week and 52 weeks of the year totaling €41600 and doesn't have to deal with the BS.

I bet you not one trades person has ever had the perfect year where no one catches them and no one wastes there time but yeah let you the customer decide what to pay.

In my opinion €50 per hour is average and you should pay the plumber and stop wasting his time it's customers like you who are the cause of rates rising because if you don't pay we still have to pay for everything else so have to up the rates to make up the loss.

Your post is completely based on someone paying tax.

In this case the plumber was not zero tax zilch none nil.

So no the rate is not average accurate or OK.

The plumber is fiddling both the customer and the tax system in this case so I'd like your response on that rather than a slick justification of him considering he paid no tax.

roy rodgers

EHP wrote: »

OK plumber rate is €50 per hour plus vat.
Most service and maintenance trades will be lucky if they average 6 billable hours a day so that's 6 x 50 = 300 per day and x 5 = €1500 per week x 48 working weeks in the year = €72000 per year.
Costs
Public liability insurance €800
Van insurance €700
Tyres once year €320
Tools and equipment per year €2400
Accountant €1000
Van tax €333
Service etc €200
Van lease €2400
Advertising €1800

Total cost €9953

So take home before tax is €62047

Now I have kept costs to the minimum and the above would be a dream year for any trade person. But we all know not all customers pay many think they can set the rates themselves. Some then only pay in installments and expect us to go and collect the money at our own cost plus I probably have left out some costs.

Payee plumber gets an average of €20 per hour before tax gets paid for 40 hours a week and 52 weeks of the year totaling €41600 and doesn't have to deal with the BS.

I bet you not one trades person has ever had the perfect year where no one catches them and no one wastes there time but yeah let you the customer decide what to pay.

In my opinion €50 per hour is average and you should pay the plumber and stop wasting his time it's customers like you who are the cause of rates rising because if you don't pay we still have to pay for everything else so have to up the rates to make up the loss.

And them figures are being generous!!!
The income tax on the 62k would be around 26k so your take home will be about 650 a week!!
Any of the big companies are giving more than that for a plumber on a 9 to 5 job.

smelly sock

roy rodgers wrote: »

And them figures are being generous!!!
The income tax on the 62k would be around 26k so your take home will be about 650 a week!!
Any of the big companies are giving more than that for a plumber on a 9 to 5 job.

What about the 20k on top from cash jobs !!

roy rodgers

smelly sock wrote: »

What about the 20k on top from cash jobs !!

Haha fair play to him working 24/7 and not having a life outside work!!!

And here's me on a Saturday morning still thinking about work???

EHP

listermint wrote:

The plumber is fiddling both the customer and the tax system in this case so I'd like your response on that rather than a slick justification of him considering he paid no tax.

The plumber in this case is Vat registered as he has given the customer the option to pay Vat.
Yes on this job he is getting cash and won't pay tax on it so he is up, customer is also saving the vat so both are winning and both fiddling the tax system.
The fact is the plumbers rate is 50 per hour plus vat or in this case 50 per hour cash by the way I'm not condoning the cash and think the plumber should charge the vat and customer should pay it and get full invoice. For an extra 60 euro everything would be above board and the plumbers insurance would cover his work no insurance on cash jobs.

Why would you say he is fiddling the customer he has given the option and the customer went for cash and appears to know the difference. Both customer and plumber are fiddling the tax system. I would be more disappointed with the plumber if he offered a reduced hourly rate for cash other than just dropping the vat as this would be yet a further step in pushing the cash market.

anthonyos

He is fleecing you he knows it you know it tell him your not paying him.I changed two tap this week they were difficult two change all in two hours I didn't give a price for job before hand and I charged 120. sounds like he didn't know what he was doing if it took him that long to do 4 simple jobs like that.
He is robbing you plain and simple

EHP

roy rodgers wrote:

And them figures are being generous!!! The income tax on the 62k would be around 26k so your take home will be about 650 a week!! Any of the big companies are giving more than that for a plumber on a 9 to 5 job.

I was intentionally generous with the figures just to show that even in an absolute best case for a year still not massive money. I know myself this year alone I have spent over €5000 on tools and my advertising bill is also way higher.

Marty Bird

OP you didn’t agree a price to begin with pay up and chalk it down to experience.

EHP

anthonyos wrote:

He is fleecing you he knows it you know it tell him your not paying him.I changed two tap this week they were difficult two change all in two hours I didn't give a price for job before hand and I charged 120. sounds like he didn't know what he was doing if it took him that long to do 4 simple jobs like that. He is robbing you plain and simple

Did you supply the taps or are you charging 60 per hour. I've often changed taps in under an hour does that mean you don't know what you're doing. I also have taken a lot longer depending on the situation just pointing out no two jobs the same and can't judge the plumber based on the time he was there.

bucketybuck

waynerooney wrote: »

Dramatics aside, I assume you consider my suggested payment of €310 as an insult to the plumber. Ask 1,000 people if they'd take €310 cash in hand for a days' work... I don't think one person would find that insulting.

You are damn right they would find it insulting to be thrown €310 if their normal rate/price was supposed to be €450, why on earth would you think otherwise?

If the OP listens to this advice about just giving the guy whatever price they can pull from their arse then I hope the plumber calls his bluff, issues him with an invoice for the full amount and chases him for it through the proper channels.

Dtp1979

roy rodgers wrote: »

Cash in hand is cheating the system and its a no no. Personally I never do the "cash" job . At the end of the year I must make a return and i pay my dues There's enough around here boss that only wanna sell a pony!

Uugh you just reminded me October is coming

listermint

EHP wrote: »

The plumber in this case is Vat registered as he has given the customer the option to pay Vat.
Yes on this job he is getting cash and won't pay tax on it so he is up, customer is also saving the vat so both are winning and both fiddling the tax system.
The fact is the plumbers rate is 50 per hour plus vat or in this case 50 per hour cash by the way I'm not condoning the cash and think the plumber should charge the vat and customer should pay it and get full invoice. For an extra 60 euro everything would be above board and the plumbers insurance would cover his work no insurance on cash jobs.

Why would you say he is fiddling the customer he has given the option and the customer went for cash and appears to know the difference. Both customer and plumber are fiddling the tax system. I would be more disappointed with the plumber if he offered a reduced hourly rate for cash other than just dropping the vat as this would be yet a further step in pushing the cash market.

The plumber in this cases rates is 50 an hour, cash rate.
Defending that is gas. None of that is going to the tax man.

Big woop spending 5k on tools this year, so have i but il have them for years and years.