Has our plumber taken us for a ride

veetwin · 22-09-2017 1:07pm

phobia2011 wrote: »

The price is on the high end,granted but 40 ph would be what I'd charge. This is what's required to cover costs of wages, van, insurance and liability. We don't know where he's travelled from etc.! Where I think the plumber has lost all credibility is cash/vat offer. Prices should be agreed in advance, but simply saying I'm not paying him is hardly the way to go. I'd definitely haggle and try to get a reduction and I'd make sure to get a invoice. A costly lesson none the less.

He is local. She got his number in the Parish newsletter which is why we foolishly assumed that he would not be ripping off locals. In fairness it is a reasonable expectation.

BorneTobyWilde · 22-09-2017 1:52pm

How about being honest. Quote a price, insist on payment before it's started, and then do job there and then to a high quality and leave the customer happy, even if it took you longer, or you had to use another part not quoted for. Everyone is happy.
Doing working and landing someone with a big bill is silly, leads to trouble. Everyone should know where they stand.

Sleeper12 · 22-09-2017 2:27pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote:

How about being honest. Quote a price, insist on payment before it's started, and then do job there and then to a high quality and leave the customer happy, even if it took you longer, or you had to use another part not quoted for. Everyone is happy. Doing working and landing someone with a big bill is silly, leads to trouble. Everyone should know where they stand.

I have no problem with him changing 50 per hour. As I said earlier you will pay more than that per hour for getting your car serviced at a maintenance dealer. It doesn't matter think he should have pointed out his rate beforehand and at that price he should provide an invoice.

Most of us give quotes and stick to them. I've had some jobs cost me money when things go wrong and I would just suck it up. The important thing is that the job is done right, then I can sleep at night.

OP maybe a call to the citizens advice centre. They might be able to give you better advice that would be lawful. Even if I had some legal advice (I don't) we can't give it on this forum. Citizens advice will set you right

K.Flyer · 22-09-2017 3:55pm

backspin. wrote: »

The price is outrageous, lets get a bit of perspective here the guy is a plumber not a heart surgeon. The price is a complete rip off. There are people out there doing a full weeks work and not even getting €450.

Then what they should do is spend the time doing an apprenticeship, get qualified, register as self employed, buy a van, insure and tax it, fill it full of the necessary equipment, pay out for public liability insurance, pay to advertise their business, pay phone bill, accountants, taxes, PPE, pay for ongoing training etc etc etc.

Sky News

A plumber can now earn over £150,000 a year, according to a recent survey by Manpower. I named my son after his great grandfather - when he's older I might suggest he follows his career path too.

K.Flyer · 22-09-2017 3:58pm

A2LUE42 wrote: »

I'm curious how badly the cisterns were fitted that it required tile removal to swap out a couple of washers.

A huge amount of modern apartments have concealed cisterns with little to no access to the cistern internals.
Its gotten so ridiculous that on occasion I have just said no to the job until they have the tiles or granite sufaces removed themselves.

enricoh · 22-09-2017 4:04pm

Mates of mine were doing up a fixer upper in south dublin recently. They didnt know any sparks or plumbers. They used tradesmen.ie to try to get quotes. Try being the word. When they eventually got a spark n a plumber to call out they just went with them. 3 quotes would have taken 3 months!

bucketybuck · 22-09-2017 4:25pm

Big difference between getting formal quotes and just asking the guy for a ballpark figure before he started. A lot of people claiming the plumber was taking advantage when for all they know that could simply be the rate he charges and that he would have charged anybody else the exact same. So not a rip off, just expensive, which is perfectly allowable.

I don't see how the OP has any grounds to decide after the fact that he doesn't want to pay his bills. He might not like the bill and might think it is expensive but that is not enough grounds to start dictating what he deems to be acceptable or not. Before the work started was the time and place to do that, not now, because for all he knows had the offered price been €300 the tradesman wouldn't have accepted the job in the first place.

He might not like it but the mistake here is on the OP for not discussing price in advance, and deciding after the fact that he doesn't want to pay the bill for services rendered is a load of bullshit really. Do you think you would get away with that anywhere else?

the_pen_turner · 22-09-2017 4:28pm

The problem is that 90of the general public don't know anything about running a Business. All the cost s would frighten you.

He should still give an invoice though

BorneTobyWilde · 22-09-2017 4:36pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I have no problem with him changing 50 per hour. As I said earlier you will pay more than that per hour for getting your car serviced at a maintenance dealer. It doesn't matter think he should have pointed out his rate beforehand and at that price he should provide an invoice.

Most of us give quotes and stick to them. I've had some jobs cost me money when things go wrong and I would just suck it up. The important thing is that the job is done right, then I can sleep at night.

OP maybe a call to the citizens advice centre. They might be able to give you better advice that would be lawful. Even if I had some legal advice (I don't) we can't give it on this forum. Citizens advice will set you right

50 a hour is problem when he spends 3 mins on fixing tap, 3 hours drinking tea.

Sleeper12 · 22-09-2017 4:42pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

50 a hour is problem when he spends 3 mins on fixing tap, 3 hours drinking tea.

I didn't read this in OPs post. I must have missed it. I read that he had a bloody hard time getting at the cisterns that he worked hard

smelly sock · 22-09-2017 5:18pm

So 450 euro per day is the going rate for a plumber?

2250 per week

117000 per year in the hand???!!!!

Jb1989 · 22-09-2017 5:38pm

Get someone else to ring him and get a per hour quote from an imaginary job and see how his prices match while been put on the spot

the_pen_turner · 22-09-2017 7:45pm

smelly sock wrote: »

So 450 euro per day is the going rate for a plumber?

2250 per week

117000 per year in the hand???!!!!

Nonsense. What about income tax, pensions , van, insurance, public liability, accountants, holiday pay, sick pay, vat return Costs , advertising, bad debt, customers canceling last minute , etc

The customer only thinks it all goes in the back pocket

smelly sock · 22-09-2017 7:56pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

Nonsense. What about income tax, pensions , van, insurance, public liability, accountants, holiday pay, sick pay, vat return Costs , advertising, bad debt, customers canceling last minute , etc

The customer only thinks it all goes in the back pocket

But he wasnt qouting with any form of vat in mind though. He openly said it would be more if he were to charge vat.

the_pen_turner · 22-09-2017 8:05pm

I'm not arguing about the VAT , that wrong and should be called out on it
What I am doing is justifying the hourly rate. It is a fair rate for someone running a business. I wish I could charge enough to cover the cost properly. Some of that has to come out of my wage

mickdw · 22-09-2017 8:11pm

As a self employed Civil Engineer, to make 60k per year wage, I need to take in €350 plus vat each and every working day.
Its not easy to do in small business.
That is just to have the wage after business expenses etc.
No possibility of stamp money should work dry up for a spell so business must be able to build up a cash reserve to cover down time, unforeseen expenses etc so 500 plus vat per day is not mental.
Too many believe that 150 per day is good money. For a self employed person, with business expenses, no security, holiday or sick pay, it cannot be done at that level

mickdw · 22-09-2017 8:12pm

As a self employed Civil Engineer, to make 60k per year wage, I need to take in €350 plus vat each and every working day.
Its not easy to do in small business.
That is just to have the wage after business expenses etc.
No possibility of stamp money should work dry up for a spell so business must be able to build up a cash reserve to cover down time, unforeseen expenses etc so 500 plus vat per day is not mental.
Too many believe that 150 per day is good money. For a self employed person, with business expenses, no security, holiday or sick pay, it cannot be done at that level

smelly sock · 22-09-2017 8:14pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I'm not arguing about the VAT , that wrong and should be called out on it
What I am doing is justifying the hourly rate. It is a fair rate for someone running a business. I wish I could charge enough to cover the cost properly. Some of that has to come out of my wage

Bit as the mod has said i am merely commenting on the original post and issue.

The plumber said he'd have to charge more than 50 if he were to pay vat.

Not im saying that for a cash in hand job 50 an hour is expensive.

Im not doubting about the cost involved running a business but they are hardly high enough to charge say 60 -70 and hour?

If i had a plumber working in my 3 bathrooms for a week id be paying 2400 just for labour at 60 and hour?

Sorry i should have said that plumber.

smelly sock · 22-09-2017 8:17pm

mickdw wrote: »

As a self employed Civil Engineer, to make 60k per year wage, I need to take in €350 plus vat each and every working day.
Its not easy to do in small business.
That is just to have the wage after business expenses etc.
Some possibility of stamp money should work dry up for a spell so business must be able to build up a cash reserve to cover down time, unforeseen expenses etc so 500 plus vat per day is not mental.
Too many believe that 150 per day is good money. For a self employed person, with business expenses, no security, holiday or sick pay, it cannot be done at that level

Is that 60k a year before or after tax and contributions?

the_pen_turner · 22-09-2017 8:34pm

smelly sock wrote: »

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I'm not arguing about the VAT , that wrong and should be called out on it
What I am doing is justifying the hourly rate. It is a fair rate for someone running a business. I wish I could charge enough to cover the cost properly. Some of that has to come out of my wage

Bit as the mod has said i am merely commenting on the original post and issue.

The plumber said he'd have to charge more than 50 if he were to pay vat.

Not im saying that for a cash in hand job 50 an hour is expensive.

Im not doubting about the cost involved running a business but they are hardly high enough to charge say 60 -70 and hour?

If i had a plumber working in my 3 bathrooms for a week id be paying 2400 just for labour at 60 and hour?

Sorry i should have said that plumber.

It cost me 35 Euro a day to be in business . This doesn't pay for van repayments. Or buying tools. It also doesn't cover my wages for any holidays or sick days.
Realistic Ally you would need 100 Euro a day to cover the costs plus labour

Sleeper12 · 22-09-2017 8:40pm

OP we are no longer talking about your job. The great thing about forums is that we get sidetracked. We will now argue about other things. You need to focus on your own job. I suggest talking to the citizen advice center and they can advice you if you can offer him less than he wants etc. Please let us know how you get on

BorneTobyWilde · 22-09-2017 8:44pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I didn't read this in OPs post. I must have missed it. I read that he had a bloody hard time getting at the cisterns that he worked hard

I read about wrong taps and trips here and there while he put his feet up with the meter running.

22-09-2017 8:46pm

veetwin wrote: »

He is local. She got his number in the Parish newsletter which is why we foolishly assumed that he would not be ripping off locals. In fairness it is a reasonable expectation.

you haven't shown yet that he has ripped you off. He spent 9 hours in your house. He may well have ripped you off, but you haven't proved that.

mickdw · 22-09-2017 8:47pm

smelly sock wrote: »

mickdw wrote: »

As a self employed Civil Engineer, to make 60k per year wage, I need to take in €350 plus vat each and every working day.
Its not easy to do in small business.
That is just to have the wage after business expenses etc.
Some possibility of stamp money should work dry up for a spell so business must be able to build up a cash reserve to cover down time, unforeseen expenses etc so 500 plus vat per day is not mental.
Too many believe that 150 per day is good money. For a self employed person, with business expenses, no security, holiday or sick pay, it cannot be done at that level

Is that 60k a year before or after tax and contributions?

thats 60k before tax so a very ordinary wage.1 Im allowing for business expenses such as rent, insurances, equipment etc.

22-09-2017 9:02pm

mickdw wrote: »

As a self employed Civil Engineer, to make 60k per year wage, I need to take in €350 plus vat each and every working day.
Its not easy to do in small business.
That is just to have the wage after business expenses etc.
No possibility of stamp money should work dry up for a spell so business must be able to build up a cash reserve to cover down time, unforeseen expenses etc so 500 plus vat per day is not mental.
Too many believe that 150 per day is good money. For a self employed person, with business expenses, no security, holiday or sick pay, it cannot be done at that level

I agree with you.

There's no guarantee of daily work so hourly rate covers a lot of things and I certainly appreciate that.

However, for the person not versed in what a good job/bad job looks like,regarless of the "trade", it's very hard for the ordinary person to determine VALUE. I'll pay whatever for a good quality job. But recognising what is a complex job/easy job etc and what solution is a good quality solution, can be difficult for someone not versed in such things.

that's why i like this forum- you get opinions from real professionals who do this work every day and it helps you form a view.

But going back to your post, yes, 60K for your qualifications/expertise, is not unreasonable. A word to the wise as maybe someone who represents your customers, you need to show to me that you're quality, that you won't do me wrong, and are providing good advice and work.

Don't underestimate what that will mean to me in terms of peace of mind- because how you do it, will dictate if I'll employ you or not.

roy rodgers · 22-09-2017 9:08pm

Online tradesman or tradesman.ie done a average cost of plumbers in 2016 and its some where on their site. But what they said on average the first hour call out in Dublin was 75 euro and 65 euro additional hour after that.
In Leinster is was 55 euro and 45 euro respectively..

This was done by an independent company and nothing got to do with a tradesmen directly..

The over heads a tradesman has is chronic. It's a short lived trade by most, you never seen many trades working into their late 50s and 60s.
Some days I would wake up and wonder why I do it, always trying to do my best and give the best service and I believe 90% of tradesman think the same

Huexotzingo · 22-09-2017 9:10pm

Ask for a Vat inclusive invoice and receipts for the parts he used.
Also try to pay by cheque or by card.

Sleeper12 · 22-09-2017 9:20pm

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I read about wrong taps and trips here and there while he put his feet up with the meter running.

Yes OPs wife either got the wrong taps or suppliers gave the wrong ones. Again you are reading some other thread about having his feet up with the meter running.
At this stage in this conversation I think OP knows that I am trying to help as best I can But I have to ask what is your purpose in all this. You have know knowledge of the plumbing trade nor do your comments seem aimed at helping the OP with his genuine problem,
I'll stick my neck out here and say that OP is stressed enough. Comments about the plumber relaxing when OP clearly states that he worked hard or how OPs wife should have gotten a quote first but didn't isn't helping him at all. We have after hours if you want to have a bit of fun but we try toi keep the plumbing and heating forum for genuine help and advice.
As thumper said in Bambi if you cant say something nice then don't say nothing at all . OP is stressed enough without stupid comments

22-09-2017 9:32pm

roy rodgers wrote: »

Online tradesman or tradesman.ie done a average cost of plumbers in 2016 and its some where on their site. But what they said on average the first hour call out in Dublin was 75 euro and 65 euro additional hour after that.
In Leinster is was 55 euro and 45 euro respectively..

This was done by an independent company and nothing got to do with a tradesmen directly..

The over heads a tradesman has is chronic. It's a short lived trade by most, you never seen many trades working into their late 50s and 60s.
Some days I would wake up and wonder why I do it, always trying to do my best and give the best service and I believe 90% of tradesman think the same

That's why I'm questioning the OP's position on this situation. Those rates are what I figured a plumber would charge.

mickdw · 22-09-2017 9:35pm

Deleted User wrote: »

mickdw wrote: »

As a self employed Civil Engineer, to make 60k per year wage, I need to take in €350 plus vat each and every working day.
Its not easy to do in small business.
That is just to have the wage after business expenses etc.
No possibility of stamp money should work dry up for a spell so business must be able to build up a cash reserve to cover down time, unforeseen expenses etc so 500 plus vat per day is not mental.
Too many believe that 150 per day is good money. For a self employed person, with business expenses, no security, holiday or sick pay, it cannot be done at that level

I agree with you.

There's no guarantee of daily work so hourly rate covers a lot of things and I certainly appreciate that.

However, for the person not versed in what a good job/bad job looks like,regarless of the "trade", it's very hard for the ordinary person to determine VALUE. I'll pay whatever for a good quality job. But recognising what is a complex job/easy job etc and what solution is a good quality solution, can be difficult for someone not versed in such things.

that's why i like this forum- you get opinions from real professionals who do this work every day and it helps you form a view.

But going back to your post, yes, 60K for your qualifications/expertise, is not unreasonable. A word to the wise as maybe someone who represents your customers, you need to show to me that you're quality, that you won't do me wrong, and are providing good advice and work.

Don't underestimate what that will mean to me in terms of peace of mind- because how you do it, will dictate if I'll employ you or not.

All sensible comments. My work is in a small community and is all by word of mouth so people rarely blindly use my services.
In this kind of situation, you cannot afford to have customers who are unhappy as word of poor service will spread faster than word of excellent service.