Has our plumber taken us for a ride

veetwin

Hi all,

My wife engaged a local plumber (North Co Dublin) to do the following;

Fix 2 cisterns in ensuite and downstairs WC that were taking ages to re-fill - access to both is difficult and involved removing tiles and plasterboard due to the crap design and construction of our house.

Replace tap in downstairs WC - very straightforward job with easy access

Replace tap in ensuite - access difficult here also.

Wife went to suppliers and bought taps, came back and they were somehow wrong. Wife returns to suppliers and long phone argument between shop and plumber ensues. Wife eventually returns with correct taps.

9 hours later as he is finishing up I ask how much I owe him. He says 9 hours labour x €50 = €450. I arrived home at 3pm and helped him for the last 2 hours. He still left the place in an awful mess. If I want an invoice he will have to charge VAT on top of that.

Now I know it wasn't the easiest of jobs but I would have said 5 hours at an absolute maximum would have been adequate for any competent tradesman.

Thoughts?

My own is if he arrived this morning and quoted a figure of €450 he would have been swiftly shown the door

---

MOD NOTE: Don't turn this thread into a tradesmen bashing thread. Stick to the original post when answering or I will hand out infractions.

thegills

No tradesman will quote for 5 hours as they usually can't fit in another job that day. They will stretch out to 7 hours.

punisher5112

Its one of those things. Try negotiate a bit see if can do for €400. Plumbers are very hard to get bit like back 10 years ago.

veetwin

thegills wrote: »

No tradesman will quote for 5 hours as they usually can't fit in another job that day. They will stretch out to 7 hours.

Even at €350 cash in the hand I would suggest he would be very well paid.

veetwin

punisher5112 wrote: »

Its one of those things. Try negotiate a bit see if can do for €400. Plumbers are very hard to get bit like back 10 years ago.

He was rang yesterday afternoon and was available to come the morning after so he obviously wasn't that busy.

tracey turnblad

Did you not ask him the price before he started?

veetwin

tracey turnblad wrote: »

Did you not ask him the price before he started?

Unfortunately not:rolleyes: My wife took responsibility for the hiring of this guy.

It's usually X euro for first hour or two and then Y euro after that. It's a full days pay from what you described. How much exactly do you want to pay him?

As long as the work is good quality (I appreciate there appears to be a mess to clean up but is the work itself good?) then I'd pay and move on considering you've had everything sorted in 1 day.

It seems a little expensive for the job but not if the plumber was onsite for 9 hours- was he competent enough in the first place or was it just that none or few of the jobs were easy?

You might want to look at it this way- if the job is good and done, then what price would you actually pay to have all of this sorted? I think it will just depress you, if you go around thinking you've been ripped off- there's probably 80 euro in the difference between the low-end estimate and hi-end estimate for this job.

elperello

I would usually work on the basis that if you don't make a price for a job you just suck it up and pay.

veetwin

Deleted User wrote: »

It's usually X euro for first hour or two and then Y euro after that. It's a full days pay from what you described. How much exactly do you want to pay him?

I suppose my question is how many plumbers (or anyone for that matter) are clearing €450 cash in the hand for a days work?

As long as the work is good quality (I appreciate there appears to be a mess to clean up but is the work itself good?) then I'd pay and move on considering you've had everything sorted in 1 day.

Hard to quantify - time will tell how good the work is

It seems a little expensive for the job but not if the plumber was onsite for 9 hours- was he competent enough in the first place or was it just that none or few of the jobs were easy?

To be honest he came across as very incompetent. The Mrs said the staff in the plumbers shop knew him and gave the same impression



You might want to look at it this way- if the job is good and done, then what price would you actually pay to have all of this sorted? I think it will just depress you, if you go around thinking you've been ripped off- there's probably 80 euro in the difference between the low-end estimate and hi-end estimate for this job.

Its not sorted yet. There is probably the guts of a days work for a tiler to put everything right - tbf not all his fault

I paid him €150 on the spot because it was all I had. Giving serious consideration to giving him €150 more next week and instructing him never to darken my door again. I have never felt this way before about a tradesman and would be of the view that a man should be well paid for good work

BorneTobyWilde

Seems a crazy price if he had no outlay on any parts whatsoever. 450.00 to mess around with a few taps, geez if he is getting that everyday with no outlay he's a very well paid man.

veetwin

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Seems a crazy price if he had no outlay on any parts whatsoever. 450.00 to mess around with a few taps, geez if he is getting that everyday with no outlay he's a very well paid man.

My point exactly. I'd say the most gifted tradesmen in the country are not clearing close to €450 a day into the hand...this guy was far from that.

Sleeper12

veetwin wrote:

9 hours later as he is finishing up I ask how much I owe him. He says 9 hours labour x €50 = €450. I arrived home at 3pm and helped him for the last 2 hours. He still left the place in an awful mess. If I want an invoice he will have to charge VAT on top of that.

Not having a pop at the op but usually when homeowners try to help I end up tripping over them and they make the job harder. Op I'm not saying that was the case today.

I'm sure he used a few fittings out of the van and they have to be paid for. I'd have been happy if he'd charged 450 inc vat

Tell him that you want a vat invoice as you can claim it back on the home improvement scheme. At least that way he'll have to declare the 450 as earnings if that makes you feel better

punisher5112

If you give the full amount maybe revenue may like to know and it may well be he is claiming welfare.

It does sound extreme especially as pointed out above he had parts given to him.

dbagman

veetwin wrote:

9 hours later as he is finishing up I ask how much I owe him. He says 9 hours labour x €50 = €450. I arrived home at 3pm and helped him for the last 2 hours. He still left the place in an awful mess. If I want an invoice he will have to charge VAT on top of that.

Need any electrical work done??? 😉😉

veetwin

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Not having a pop at the op but usually when homeowners try to help I end up tripping over them and they make the job harder. Op I'm not saying that was the case today.

He asked me for help

I'm sure he used a few fittings out of the van and they have to be paid for. I'd have been happy if he'd charged 450 inc vat

I'd be amazed if he used €5 worth of his own fittings

Tell him that you want a vat invoice as you can claim it back on the home improvement scheme. At least that way he'll have to declare the 450 as earnings if that makes you feel better

]

If I ask him for a vat invoice I will be liable to a further 13.5% on top of the €450 as well as legitimising his extraordinary fee. Also I think the home improvement scheme involves spending several thousand

kippy

450 bucks in the hand is extortion, especially considering the type of work done even if you are paying Dublin rates.

That said you should always define your expectation's for the job and rates before agreeing to have the work done.

I really can't believe the fee though - ridiculous.

uck51js9zml2yt

Plumber removed and fitted a new toilet and cistern for me a while ago. More than a half days work involved and he also bought a fitting. €100.

jimmycrackcorm

veetwin wrote:

My own is if he arrived this morning and quoted a figure of €450 he would have been swiftly shown the door

Why didn't your wife negotiate a price before he started, didn't he even give a quote?

Sleeper12

veetwin wrote:

If I ask him for a vat invoice I will be liable to a further 13.5% on top of the €450 as well as legitimising his extraordinary fee. Also I think the home improvement scheme involves spending several thousand

I'm not sure how the scheme works tbh. I know that you don't have to spend all on the one job. Several people have claimed back for showers I have done and they would all be less than 450.

I don't know how hard the work was or wasn't so can't comment on the bill. I will say that I don't like that it's cash in hand. My daughter works 39 hours per week and comes home with a lot less than 450 for the week.

450 cash in hand is worth 900 before tax

slavetothegrind

When you hear that cash price BS run for the hills, because that's what the plumber will be doing once paid.....

Sleeper12

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Why didn't your wife negotiate a price before he started, didn't he even give a quote?

Ah jasus Jimmy you didn't need to bring that up. I'm sure the atmosphere is frosty enough in the house as it is.

qhe0i9zvfgdou8

You're mistake OP was not agreeing a price before he started. Can't really tell how difficult the job was so don't know if 9 hours was justified for it.
Even if it was the price seems a lot even allowing for the fact you're in Dublin. I'd be negotiating it if possible.
How did your wife find this lad.

jimmycrackcorm

Sleeper12 wrote:

Ah jasus Jimmy you didn't need to bring that up. I'm sure the atmosphere is frosty enough in the house as it is.

Then I guess there's no point suggesting to her the next time that she answers the door in a see sexy negligee and ask if he'll take any other form of payment.... ☺ï¸

dbagman

Brentley Wrong Radish wrote:

How did your wife find this lad.

Jesus I had to double take there. Take one letter out of that sentence and it takes on a whole new meaning!!!

EHP

veetwin wrote:

9 hours later as he is finishing up I ask how much I owe him. He says 9 hours labour x €50 = €450. I arrived home at 3pm and helped him for the last 2 hours. He still left the place in an awful mess. If I want an invoice he will have to charge VAT on top of that.

€50 per hour is about right I would think, if he was there for 9 hours you owe him the €450. You helping him for 2 hours doesn't reduce his rate some would say it should increase his rate. Remember when you give him €450 he hasn't cleared €450 into his pocket he has overheads like any other business and is allowed make a profit on top of his wages otherwise he might as well be payee.

Sleeper12

EHP wrote: »

€50 per hour is about right I would think, if he was there for 9 hours you owe him the €450. You helping him for 2 hours doesn't reduce his rate some would say it should increase his rate. Remember when you give him €450 he hasn't cleared €450 into his pocket he has overheads like any other business and is allowed make a profit on top of his wages otherwise he might as well be payee.

I'd normally totally agree if he gave a vat receipt but it's cash in hand. We shouldn't even be talking about "cash" jobs but it is what it is

smelly sock

450 euro for a days pay? Ffs time to retrain i think. And thats cash to.

smelly sock

EHP wrote: »

€50 per hour is about right I would think, if he was there for 9 hours you owe him the €450. You helping him for 2 hours doesn't reduce his rate some would say it should increase his rate. Remember when you give him €450 he hasn't cleared €450 into his pocket he has overheads like any other business and is allowed make a profit on top of his wages otherwise he might as well be payee.

Eh considering the materials were bought for him 450 most certainly is a ride.

Back to good auld rip off ireland.

smelly sock

Brentley Wrong Radish wrote: »

You're mistake OP was not agreeing a price before he started. Can't really tell how difficult the job was so don't know if 9 hours was justified for it.
Even if it was the price seems a lot even allowing for the fact you're in Dublin. I'd be negotiating it if possible.
How did your wife find this lad.

I dont agree that its op mistake. Its a case of a plumber trying to fleece them. But there are a lot of dishonest ones around.

50 euro an hour.......

kyeev

Give him 300 or 350 which seems about fair for the job. And then see how much of a fuss or effort he makes to get the rest of the money?

smelly sock

kyeev wrote: »

Give him 300 or 350 which seems about fair for the job. And then see how much of a fuss or effort he makes to get the rest of the money?

Id agree. 300 is more than generous.

His tax affairs are his business. Id pursue him for an invoice on that also out of principal. Pure greed.

Bellview

I'm close limerick city but had a similar experience. I got quote for 450 for day and he added an extra 500 onto parts he was buying...so he was hoping to make nearly 1000 for a days work. Luckily I spotted that he was trying to screw me on parts so when I asked him if Bill correct he said ok for me to buy parts...and we agreed that he would do work for 450 on a given date
Along came the date and he forgot to call but would fit me in later..at that point I told him where to go...at plumber travelled from kerry did the job and a few extra bits that we found for 220....
Tradesmen are back to their old tricks pre recession

smelly sock

Bellview wrote: »

I'm close limerick city but had a similar experience. I got quote for 450 for day and he added an extra 500 onto parts he was buying...so he was hoping to make nearly 1000 for a days work. Luckily I spotted that he was trying to screw me on parts so when I asked him if Bill correct he said ok for me to buy parts...and we agreed that he would do work for 450 on a given date
Along came the date and he forgot to call but would fit me in later..at that point I told him where to go...at plumber travelled from kerry did the job and a few extra bits that we found for 220....
Tradesmen are back to their old tricks pre recession

The trick is to shop around. To be fair ost just want to male an honest living but the like of 450? Thats theft.

LeinsterDub

kyeev wrote: »

Give him 300 or 350 which seems about fair for the job. And then see how much of a fuss or effort he makes to get the rest of the money?

It's not the trades man fault his wife was foolish. Pay the man his rate and chalk it up to experience
Honestly who in there right mind hires someone for a job and doesn't know their rate?

Wearb

MOD NOTE: Don't turn this thread into a tradesmen bashing thread. Stick to the original post when answering or I will hand out infractions.

smelly sock

veetwin wrote: »

Hi all,

My wife engaged a local plumber (North Co Dublin) to do the following;

Fix 2 cisterns in ensuite and downstairs WC that were taking ages to re-fill - access to both is difficult and involved removing tiles and plasterboard due to the crap design and construction of our house.

Replace tap in downstairs WC - very straightforward job with easy access

Replace tap in ensuite - access difficult here also.

Wife went to suppliers and bought taps, came back and they were somehow wrong. Wife returns to suppliers and long phone argument between shop and plumber ensues. Wife eventually returns with correct taps.

9 hours later as he is finishing up I ask how much I owe him. He says 9 hours labour x €50 = €450. I arrived home at 3pm and helped him for the last 2 hours. He still left the place in an awful mess. If I want an invoice he will have to charge VAT on top of that.

Now I know it wasn't the easiest of jobs but I would have said 5 hours at an absolute maximum would have been adequate for any competent tradesman.

Thoughts?

My own is if he arrived this morning and quoted a figure of €450 he would have been swiftly shown the door

---

MOD NOTE: Don't turn this thread into a tradesmen bashing thread. Stick to the original post when answering or I will hand out infractions.

Yes you are been taken for a ride. Not your wifes fault or yours that thus guy is trying to pull a fast one. Dont pay it.

RobbingBandit

Telling you if you get an invoice he has to charge VAT, get out of here I'd throw him 250 max and if he bites back get on to revenue about him, he'd be gone in a flash.

LeinsterDub

smelly sock wrote: »

Yes you are been taken for a ride. Not your wifes fault or yours that thus guy is trying to pull a fast one. Dont pay it.

She didn't ask the price of course it's her fault. I can't walk into a BMW dealer sign up for the car then whinge when it costs 50k and sure look the Kia garage is selling cars for 15k the BMW has to be a rip off.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

A2LUE42

I'm curious how badly the cisterns were fitted that it required tile removal to swap out a couple of washers.

smelly sock

LeinsterDub wrote: »

She didn't ask the price of course it's her fault. I can't walk into a BMW dealer sign up for the car then whinge when it costs 50k and sure look the Kia garage is selling cars for 15k the BMW has to be a rip off.

No its not her fault. Foolish yes but thats it.

This person saw an oppurtunity to fleece someone and took it.

Sleeper12

smelly sock wrote: »

I dont agree that its op mistake. Its a case of a plumber trying to fleece them. But there are a lot of dishonest ones around.

50 euro an hour.......

I'm not blaming op here either. I'm a plumber. If I couldn't give a price I would have given a good guess. It will be between 000 000or whatever. The only time I'd jump in without talking money is if there was a leak the place was getting flooded.

€50 an hour sounds expensive? your car dealer charges more than €50 per hour to work on your car. Admittedly you'll get a VAT receipt at the end

smelly sock

jacksie66 wrote: »

This is one of the reasons why I packed in plumbing. You do a job, agree a price and then when the job is done the customer thinks they're paying you too much. They see what you did and realise it wasn't as big as they thought, even after agreeing a price. You end up in a big argument and sometimes have to hound the person for money. Granted 450 for what he did is a bit much though..

I dont think anyone is having a go a plumbers in general. Your point is excellent. If i agree a price before the job based on the spec and work required i pay. No arguments or quibbles.

This isnt what happened though. Materials supplied etc and labour charged at 50 per hour.

If anything the plumber should have covered themselves and told them the rate before they started. Which leads me to believe this guy was a chancer.

smelly sock

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I'm not blaming op here either. I'm a plumber. If I couldn't give a price I would have given a good guess. It will be between 000 000or whatever. The only time I'd jump in without talking money is if there was a leak the place was getting flooded.

€50 an hour sounds expensive? your car dealer charges more than €50 per hour to work on your car. Admittedly you'll get a VAT receipt at the end

You raise a fair point and i agree. I feel the onous is on the tradesmen to set out his price before he starts?

LeinsterDub

smelly sock wrote: »

No its not her fault. Foolish yes but thats it.

This person saw an oppurtunity to fleece someone and took it.

How do you know that isn't his rate? She should of asked him before hand and refused the price or agreed a set rate. It's 100% her fault.

smelly sock

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How do you know that isn't his rate? She should of asked him before hand and refused the price or agreed a set rate. It's 100% her fault.

Im making assumpions on his rate for the type of job from what other plumbers are saying.

Generally not a good business model to
A) Rip the customer off
Blame said customer when they complain about getting ripped off.

Sleeper12

What I hate about these threads are comparing jobs you got done by "Handy Andy" down the pub who might also be on the dole, to prices of registered tradesmen paying their taxes being fully insured

Someone saying " I got a whole bathroom fitted for €200" is only confusing things. They always forget to say that he was on the dole, I sat outside his house each morning trying to get him out of bed & I had to go to the suppliers several times a day cos the "plumber" has no transport. He wasn't insured he wasn't paying taxes and if he fell off the ladder he'd sue me.

Bottom line is going forward best practice is to get a few quotes. It's better to know something about their work the dearest isn't always the best quality

phobia2011

What would be deemed acceptable for 9 hours work?

backspin.

The price is outrageous, lets get a bit of perspective here the guy is a plumber not a heart surgeon. The price is a complete rip off. There are people out there doing a full weeks work and not even getting €450.

Karangue

The big dildos are back out by the plumbers.