Andre Ward

Sweet Science

Bit of a shock

He has retired as per the man himself

walshb

Sweet Science wrote: »

Bit of a shock

He has retired as per the man himself

I don't even think it will be a case of we only appreciated him after he was gone.

nacho libre

I did not see that coming If he has lost the desire for it, then it's a good choice. I will remember him for outclassing a peak Kessler in the super six boxing tournament.

Burial.

Tremendous fighter. Happy to see him go out at the top of the sport but would have loved to see him spank Adonis or Bellew or both and then sign off. He's done it all though, a lock for the Hall of Fame and will go down as an all time great. Hope he sticks around in the sport via training or commentary. His knowledge and brain as impressive as his physical talents.

nacho libre

Hemd wrote: »

What a waste of talent.

Not at all. He achieved a great deal with his talent, and to trout that old cliche; is retiring of his own volition, rather than boxing retiring him. Good luck to him.

Henno30

Andre Ward is 33 and just had the biggest win of his career. Do people seriously believe that he's retiring?

nacho libre

pac_man wrote: »

If true,good for him. Never really liked his style and his attitude out of the ring was vexatious but you'd have to appreciate his intelligence inside the ring.

How exactly was he vexatious? That description would be more apt for the likes of Froch. He still can't accept that Ward schooled him and got narky with an interviewer who would not agree with his opinion on Ward. At least you accept he was a smart fighter inside the ring

walshb

His two biggest "wins" are also the most contentious. I thought he lost fight 1 on points to SK, and fight 2 my views are well known. Down on the cards and then wins via clear fouling.

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

His two biggest "wins" are also the most contentious. I thought he lost fight 1 on points to SK, and fight 2 my views are well known. Down on the cards and then wins via clear fouling.

It's mad how contentious they are. Like If you were to sit down and think how can I write this so that it leaves the whole match up unresolved you couldn't do much better.

Still when all is said and done he is one of the best super MWs of all time both achievements wise and when viewed from a H2H point of view. I also respect that he did move up to challenge the man at light heavy. Pity we got no closure on that one.

What I find most disappointing about him retiring is it gives Carl Froch another excuse to talk about himself. #Wartrencheswembley

walshb

Maravilla33 wrote: »

It's mad how contentious they are. Like If you were to sit down and think how can I write this so that it leaves the whole match up unresolved you couldn't do much better.

Still when all is said and done he is one of the best super MWs of all time both achievements wise and when viewed from a H2H point of view. I also respect that he did move up to challenge the man at light heavy. Pity we got no closure on that one.

What I find most disappointing about him retiring is it gives Carl Froch another excuse to talk about himself. #Wartrencheswembley

Challenged the man at LHW? Kovalev or Chad Dawson?

I don't see either as much of a move or step up considering that Ward really is a LHW boiled down to 168 lbs. Fought at 178 lbs as a 20 year old in Athens

Maravilla33

You're a hard man to please. I meant Kovalev. Ward could have stayed at Super Mid and didn't have to challenge a seriously dangerous opponent in a division he hadn't fought in professionally. I give him kudos for that. Pity the way the fights panned out.

Sweet Science

Major Kudos for him moving up and fighting a dangerous man.

He was horrible to watch though looking back - didnt really like his style at all

walshb

Maravilla33 wrote: »

You're a hard man to please. I meant Kovalev. Ward could have stayed at Super Mid and didn't have to challenge a seriously dangerous opponent in a division he hadn't fought in professionally. I give him kudos for that. Pity the way the fights panned out.

When speaking about ATG status then the bar has to be set high.

I just don't see any real brilliance with a big SMW pro moving up a few lbs to meet a LHW. Plus, I felt he lost fight 1 to SK, and fouled his way to a win in fight 2.

History is full of greats going through the weights to meet men of equal size, bigger size, and clearly bigger size. Look at Jones and Toney as two real solid examples.

Ward IMO didn't move up at all. He fought in a division that was pretty much his natural division.

The guy didn't give away anything. Dawson was rumored to be a little weight drained anyway. And that fight was at 168, wasn't it?

So, Ward tested himself once in the "moving up" stakes, and really, how much of a test was that as regards moving up?

Maravilla33

walshb wrote: »

When speaking about ATG status then the bar has to be set high.

I just don't see any real brilliance with a big SMW pro moving up a few lbs to meet a LHW. Plus, I felt he lost fight 1 to SK, and fouled his way to a win in fight 2.

History is full of greats going through the weights to meet men of equal size, bigger size, and clearly bigger size. Look at Jones and Toney as two real solid examples.

Ward IMO didn't move up at all. He fought in a division that was pretty much his natural division.

The guy didn't give away anything. Dawson was rumored to be a little weight drained anyway.

I'm more taking into account who he moved up to face than the extra few lbs. I give him credit for jumping straight up into a fight vs a very dangerous opponent. I think its harsh to penalise him for being big. Most boxers boil down to fight in a division lower than needed. Tommy Hearns was a giant welter but I still give him credit for fighting hagler in his first MW fight.

Ignore the results against Kovalev, my credit is purely for deciding to jump up and fight him. You say he gave away nothing. Size wise you're right but he still moved up to fight the most dangerous guy he could. Thats refreshing for me.

Maravilla33

Dawson was weight drained but I'm talking about the fight vs Kovalev

walshb

Maravilla33 wrote: »

Ignore the results against Kovalev, my credit is purely for deciding to jump up and fight him. You say he gave away nothing. Size wise you're right but he still moved up to fight the most dangerous guy he could. Thats refreshing for me.

But in an ATG scenario it doesn't at all stand out for me. Just another fight against a man the same size. Ward was pretty much a LHW. He was the last few years anyway. And he was even heavier aged 20. There was no jump up. He was at LHW a while before meeting SK.

Anyway, we could labor the point too much. Ward as a LHW meeting another LHW....big deal.

Morrison J

Embarrassed Froch with one hand and exposed the biggest myth in boxing that was Kovalev's "hard man" image. Deserves more credit than he gets imo but didn't always help himself.

walshb

Morrison J wrote: »

Embarrassed Froch with one hand and exposed the biggest myth in boxing that was Kovalev's "hard man" image. Deserves more credit than he gets imo but didn't always help himself.

What hard man image? If you are referring to fight 2 then I can't really see what he exposed in that fight...

Fight 1 we all thought would be competitive.

He is a hard man, but so is Ward.

nacho libre

pac_man wrote: »

I'm sure I'm not the only one that shares this opinion. His level of achievements are excellent and given that he's a yank, he should be a lot more popular than he actually is. I found his condescension towards past opponents and his general level of arrogance to be irritating. Using retirement as a negotiating strategy as a way of getting out of a rematch clause. I'm still not fully convinced this is his official retirement but only time will tell.

Agree with Froch. He still comes across as someone that needs his ego stroked.

Well i believe he has retired. It's no coincidence he announces his retirement the day after Rio announces he is taking up boxing.

But seriously i always thought he came across as articulate and well mannered. He has belief in his own ability, that's for sure. There is a fine line between being cocky and self- confident. I always felt he was the latter, where as the likes of Froch is full of himself, because deep down he is insecure. Which I don't understand given what he has achieved.

nacho libre

walshb wrote: »

What hard man image? If you are referring to fight 2 then I can't really see what he exposed in that fight...

Fight 1 we all thought would be competitive.

He is a hard man, but so is Ward.

Well if he proved only one thing, it's that he proved he could take Kovalev's power. I agree, that he probably lost the first fight, but won the second.
He deserves credit for taking on the danger man in that division. Contrast his attitude, with the likes of Mayweather, Triple G who never stepped up to take on a dangerous foe. I was impressed of his outclassing of a peak Kessler. Is it that you never rated Kessler? At the time, Kessler had only lost to Calzaghe- and it has been suggested he carried a bad injury going in to the fight which would have affected his performance.

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

But in an ATG scenario it doesn't at all stand out for me. Just another fight against a man the same size. Ward was pretty much a LHW. He was the last few years anyway. And he was even heavier aged 20. There was no jump up. He was at LHW a while before meeting SK.

Anyway, we could labor the point too much. Ward as a LHW meeting another LHW....big deal.

Andre Ward boxed at light-heavy in the 2004 Olympics in order to let Andre Dirrell box at middle. They were good friends and Ward showed tremendous confidence (and decency) by deciding to move up in order to prevent them meeting in the trials. He won gold and Dirrell took bronze. Ward was well capable of making middleweight at the time and would not have lost to Dirrell. And everyone in US amateur boxing knew it.

You also mentioned earlier that Ward was a LHW boiling down for virtually all his super-middle days. That's a load of tosh! Even if the above explanation for his Olympic weight wasn't true, he made the super-middle limit for all those fights, the same as his opponents. Which means he was a super-middle! I hate this crap of trying to denigrate boxers for being 'bigger' than their opponents. They're called 'weight' divisions for a reason. And to be honest I never thought Ward looked particularly big, in the way Kessler did for example. Now there's a huge super-middle.

Having said all that, I never liked watching Ward. Horrible style. But he was a great boxer, who beat a high-quality field as a 10/1 outsider to win the Super Six tournament, which is why he didn't move up. Then when he did, he faced the most dangerous light-heavy out there. I thought he nicked the first one, but it was close. The less said about the refereeing of the second the better. Suffice to say the American referee didn't penalise the American for fouling.

walshb

Whatever. He was a LHW meeting a LHW... no jump in weight.

Burial.

If Ward was a full blown LHW then his achievements at 168 only elevate his legacy even higher. People have been trying to put down Ward his entire career it's crazy. I get his style isn't the most eye friendly but real should be able to recognise real. The whoopings he put on the likes of Kessler, Froch and Dawson are incredible. I see bitter old Kovalev has come out saying Ward retired because he was afraid of him. Ward messed Kovalev up a lot worse than initially thought it seems. I guess Kovalev can always say "I told you so" when he said he'd finish Ward's career...:pac:

walshb

Ward had a very good career.

I simply don't see much "extra" brilliance in him meeting a man his own size in an equal weight class. It was simply a fight against the best two LHWs.

Kovalev though his pro career campaigned as the "bigger" man, but Ward had several bouts during his early career above 168, and a few fights prior to SK he was fighting above 168.

Also, it's not like he was moving up as some real underdog. The betting favorite was Ward.

This wasn't Duran Hagler or Leonard Hagler or even Duran Leonard stuff....

They are examples of real step ups.

Even Rigo-Loma is by far a bigger step up and task....

Let's not overrate the LHW match in Ward's favor. Two very good LHWs evenly matched in all areas.

And my own view on his two biggest fights are that he really failed to shine in either.

His career at SMW was quality.

megadodge

I don't regard the Dawson fight as a good win, as Dawson was a career light-heavy who had to boil down to 12stone for that fight and was as weak as water throughout. I was very disappointed with Ward for doing that rather than moving up.

Though that does show what happens when a 'natural' light-heavy boils down to super-middle, which shows up that nonsense argument that has been invented on this thread.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

I don't regard the Dawson fight as a good win, as Dawson was a career light-heavy who had to boil down to 12stone for that fight and was as weak as water throughout. I was very disappointed with Ward for doing that rather than moving up.

Though that does show what happens when a 'natural' light-heavy boils down to super-middle, which shows up that nonsense argument that has been invented on this thread.

Who on the thread said that Ward boiled down to SMW?

Edit....I did actually say it in one of my posts.

Anyway, my main-key point stands. When they met both were natural and strong LHWs, and Ward did fight at LHW several times prior to SK. That is indisputable.

He did NOT move up in weight specifically for the SK fight. He was at LHW before it.

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

Ward had a very good career.

I simply don't see much "extra" brilliance in him meeting a man his own size in an equal weight class. It was simply a fight against the best two LHWs.

Kovalev though his pro career campaigned as the "bigger" man, but Ward had several bouts during his early career above 168, and a few fights prior to SK he was fighting above 168.

Also, it's not like he was moving up as some real underdog. The betting favorite was Ward.

This wasn't Duran Hagler or Leonard Hagler or even Duran Leonard stuff....

They are examples of real step ups.

Even Rigo-Loma is by far a bigger step up and task....

Let's not overrate the LHW match in Ward's favor. Two very good LHWs evenly matched in all areas.

And my own view on his two biggest fights are that he really failed to shine in either.

His career at SMW was quality.

More nonsense!!

In 5 of Ward's first 10 fights he weighed on or under the MIDDLEWEIGHT limit !! In 2 others of that 10 he was only 1/4 pound over and 1 pound over the same limit, which tallies perfectly with what I said earlier about his Olympic weight.

Andre Ward was a career super-middleweight, who moved up to light-heavy for his last 4 fights. Get over it.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

More nonsense!!

In 5 of Ward's first 10 fights he weighed on or under the MIDDLEWEIGHT limit !! In 2 others of that 10 he was only 1/4 pound over and 1 pound over it, the same limit, which tallies nicely with what I said earlier about his Olympic weight.

Andre Ward was a career super-middleweight, who moved up to light-heavy for his last 4 fights. Get over it.

How is my true and factual comment nonsense?

Did he or did he not fight above 168 in earlier fights?

Whether he fought below 168 is irrelevant. I never claimed he did not. I made a simple point that he fought at above 168 pre SK...that is fact.

Your spoiling for an argument doesn't change that fact. You're arguing over a few lbs here and there. Pathetic.

megadodge

Four years into his pro career, in his 17th fight he finally weighed a whopping 3 pounds over super-middle in a non-title fight. Then nearly a year later in his 20th fight he weighed a whopping 3.25 pounds over the super-middle limit.

That's it until the Paul Smith fight nearly eleven years into his career.

Even you can't pretend that equates to "Ward had several bouts during his early career above 168".

And even if you do pretend, two fights at 12st 3lb in eleven year doesn't sound like a light-heavy boiling down to super-middle to me.

You're making it up as you go along hoping nobody will notice.

I don't even like Ward that much, but your mistruths are exactly how internet rumours end up becoming accepted as fact when nobody questions them.

walshb

There are no mistruths. Just facts.

He fought above 168 during his career....

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

Ward had several bouts during his early career above 168

.

boxer.fan

I always had a great appreciation for Andre Ward's skill & ability in the same way I had for mayweather & still do for Rigondeaux & Lomachenko.
I have no issue with him stepping away from the game at 33, however there is something about his career that seems left behind. He could have been greater than great, if you know what I mean?
Had he been more active he might have put on many more displays of brilliance & put himself down as an ATG without any doubt whatsoever.

I loved the way he owned the Super Six tournament. That was great for boxing. That period was what made him. He fought some tough boxers at that time, Froch, Kessler, Abraham, & even Bika.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

.

Thanks for pointing that out. That makes us both correct now.

Joe Musashi

Tried to break a contract he signed when his promoter was on his deathbed. Bad guy. Never liked his style or fouling.

Sebastian Dangerfield

nacho libre wrote: »

Contrast his attitude, with the likes of Mayweather, Triple G who never stepped up to take on a dangerous foe.

Off topic I know, but I never understand why this is thrown at Mayweather consistently, but not others like Pacquiao. Floyd fought De La Hoya, Ricky Hatton and Shane Mosley before Manny did. He took on a prime Canelo at 36 years old and schooled him. Manny fought Marquez twice after Floyd did, so Floyd could hardly be accused of picking his time if Manny is not.

I'm not a huge fan of Mayweather, but this comment seems to have grown arms and legs over the years IMO.

As for GGG, who is it that he is supposed to have ducked?

Morrison J

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

nacho libre wrote: »

Contrast his attitude, with the likes of Mayweather, Triple G who never stepped up to take on a dangerous foe.

Off topic I know, but I never understand why this is thrown at Mayweather consistently, but not others like Pacquiao. Floyd fought De La Hoya, Ricky Hatton and Shane Mosley before Manny did. He took on a prime Canelo at 36 years old and schooled him. Manny fought Marquez twice after Floyd did, so Floyd could hardly be accused of picking his time if Manny is not.

I'm not a huge fan of Mayweather, but this comment seems to have grown arms and legs over the years IMO.

As for GGG, who is it that he is supposed to have ducked?

Your giving Manny no credit for the Morales and Barrera wins which are probably his best wins.

Manny's best wins > Floyd's best wins. Easy.

Sebastian Dangerfield

Morrison J wrote: »

Your giving Manny no credit for the Morales and Barrera wins which are probably his best wins.

Manny's best wins > Floyd's best wins. Easy.

Oh I am, and I'm not debating your last point. But it's not the one I'm making - the post said that Floyd didn't step up to take big fights. I disagree with that

Morrison J

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Morrison J wrote: »

Your giving Manny no credit for the Morales and Barrera wins which are probably his best wins.

Manny's best wins > Floyd's best wins. Easy.

Oh I am, and I'm not debating your last point. But it's not the one I'm making - the post said that Floyd didn't step up to take big fights. I disagree with that

He definitely took big fights but on his own terms. Takes some of the shine away for me personally.

Joe Musashi

Perhaps the only watchable fight Ward was in was the first Kovalev fight. Other than that I cannot think of one worth watching or being in any way enjoyable.

Burial.

Froch fight was a brilliant clinic. Dawson fight was very entertaining. Recently the Barrera fight was a very good scrap.

megadodge

Burial. wrote: »

Froch fight was a brilliant clinic. Dawson fight was very entertaining. Recently the Barrera fight was a very good scrap.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose, but I'd have to discount the Dawson fight purely because of having a longtime light-heavy come down to 12stone had Dawson looking so weak from the moment he stepped into the ring, it can't be regarded as a legitimate win over a fully functional fighter.

Burial.

Meh Dawson wanted it at 168, IIRC he's the one who called out Ward and wanted his belts...and I definitely remember him saying he'd make 168 no problem...it was only after getting destroyed that he made the whole draining excuse. Ward was the favourite but nobody expected him to batter Dawson like he did. I mean Manny got his props when De La Hoya was a corpse with supposedly fresh needle marks on his arm from IV on fight night. The win against Canelo is lauded as one of Floyd's best nights but everyone knew Canelo making weight was touch and go. Once again I feel people just do anything to discredit Ward. Dawson was top 10 p4p at the time as well. Would 172 catchweight been better of course but Dawson wanted the fight at 168 for a crack at Ward's belts.

megadodge

Burial. wrote: »

Meh Dawson wanted it at 168, IIRC he's the one who called out Ward and wanted his belts...and I definitely remember him saying he'd make 168 no problem...it was only after getting destroyed that he made the whole draining excuse. Ward was the favourite but nobody expected him to batter Dawson like he did. I mean Manny got his props when De La Hoya was a corpse with supposedly fresh needle marks on his arm from IV on fight night. The win against Canelo is lauded as one of Floyd's best nights but everyone knew Canelo making weight was touch and go. Once again I feel people just do anything to discredit Ward. Dawson was top 10 p4p at the time as well. Would 172 catchweight been better of course but Dawson wanted the fight at 168 for a crack at Ward's belts.

I watched that fight live and I remember noticing that Dawson looked terrible from the very beginning. It was one of the most obvious weight-drains I've seen personally.

It's ironic that I'm being accused of trying to discredit Ward when only a few posts back I was highlighting that very point myself and the poster who was caught lying while trying to discredit Ward actually thanked your post! Bizarre.

I rate Ward highly even though his style really didn't do it for me. All his other wins (except Kovalev II) are fine by me.

walshb

I thank many posts.

Thanked not necessarily because I agree with them, but because I may admire their effort to debate and argue and give their version.

Burial's post above deserved thanks because he put up a good argument.

My views are very simple...Ward had a very good career.

I simply do not get the kind of OTT credit for facing SK. It was just another fight between two of the best men who are very similar in size and who both were competing in the same weight class.

You went off on tangents trying to argue that or disagree with it, when in reality there is nothing to really disagree with.

This throwing around accusations of posters lying. FFS..nobody is lying here, and it's not a nice thing to be accused of in the wrong.

walshb

My views on Ward the person.. he comes across very well. Sincere, genuine and normal so to speak. Nothing contrived or deliberately controversial.

Burial.

megadodge wrote: »

I watched that fight live and I remember noticing that Dawson looked terrible from the very beginning. It was one of the most obvious weight-drains I've seen personally.

It's ironic that I'm being accused of trying to discredit Ward when only a few posts back I was highlighting that very point myself and the poster who was caught lying while trying to discredit Ward actually thanked your post! Bizarre.

I rate Ward highly even though his style really didn't do it for me. All his other wins (except Kovalev II) are fine by me.

Not pointing figures at you or anyone here in particular but in general people tend to discredit that win against Dawson is what I said. Was it an ideal win, no but it's a very impressive win and people should give it its props given Floyd and Manny got huge props for their wins and nobody disputes them. Double standards if ya ask me. Again not pointing fingers at any of ye lads. As far as Boxing fans go the regs on this forum are the cream of the crop as far as I am concerned.

Burial.

walshb wrote: »

My views on Ward the person.. he comes across very well. Sincere, genuine and normal so to speak. Nothing contrived or deliberately controversial.

Yeah I think he's an absolute gent and very calculated when he speaks. This thing of him being cocky and arrogant and it grates people I don't really get either. The man hasn't been beaten (whether you think he has or not, by the books he hasn't) since he was a teen... He has a gifted mind for Boxing and he has great physical attributes. Olympic gold, cleared out 168 with relative ease...He's every right to run his mouth like Floyd tbh as he backed it up time and time again. Maybe people don't like him trying to play the hero and the villain at times which is understandable I guess but still a little puzzling.

walshb

Burial. wrote: »

Not pointing figures at you or anyone here in particular but in general people tend to discredit that win against Dawson is what I said. Was it an ideal win, no but it's a very impressive win and people should give it its props given Floyd and Manny got huge props for their wins and nobody disputes them. Double standards if ya ask me. Again not pointing fingers at any of ye lads. As far as Boxing fans go the regs on this forum are the cream of the crop as far as I am concerned.

Well said. No need for any of us to be getting personal/swiping..

And I know, I can be guilty of it at times.

megadodge

walshb wrote: »

I thank many posts.

Thanked not necessarily because I agree with them, but because I may admire their effort to debate and argue and give their version.

Burial's post above deserved thanks because he put up a good argument.

My views are very simple...Ward had a very good career.

I simply do not get the kind of OTT credit for facing SK. It was just another fight between two of the best men who are very similar in size and who both were competing in the same weight class.

You went off on tangents trying to argue that or disagree with it, when in reality there is nothing to really disagree with.

This throwing around accusations of posters lying. FFS..nobody is lying here, and it's not a nice thing to be accused of in the wrong.

Ward really is a LHW boiled down to 168 lbs

That's a lie.

He fought in a division that was pretty much his natural division [light heavy]

That's a lie.

Ward had several bouts during his early career above 168

That's a lie.

All there in black and white.


The funny thing is I agree with most of your overall points about him, but don't try pulling the wool over people's eyes and complaining when you're called out on it.

walshb

Read up on what a lie is..

I am not lying...a liar is a nasty label. It implies a sneaky and deceptive person, who deliberately makes a statement knowing it to be false but intending it to be believed to others.

Saying something that is a view or an opinion that may not be true does not automatically make it a lie, or someone a liar. Same way people can make genuine errors or mistakes that does not make them liars. We all can do this. No issue with anyone calling me out on anything they disagree with or question. I do draw the line at being accused of lying.

And I don't appreciate the term being flung my way.

Leaving this now.

Maravilla33

nacho libre wrote: »

Contrast his attitude, with the likes of Mayweather, Triple G who never stepped up to take on a dangerous foe.

I was saying earlier in the thread that I gave Ward big credit for stepping up to fight Kovalev but the Mayweather comment is BS. Who did you want him to fight? He was champ at super feather and ended up fighting Oscar and Canelo up at light middle winning belts in several divisions along the way. He's not exactly a big guy so deserves just as much credit for fighting someone like Canelo.