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Andre Ward

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  • 21-09-2017 3:50pm
    #1
    Sweet Science
    Closed Accounts Posts: 890 ✭✭✭


    Bit of a shock

    He has retired as per the man himself


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    #2
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Sweet Science wrote: »
    Bit of a shock

    He has retired as per the man himself

    I don't even think it will be a case of we only appreciated him after he was gone.


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    #3
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,691 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    I did not see that coming If he has lost the desire for it, then it's a good choice. I will remember him for outclassing a peak Kessler in the super six boxing tournament.


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    #4
    Burial.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭Burial.


    Tremendous fighter. Happy to see him go out at the top of the sport but would have loved to see him spank Adonis or Bellew or both and then sign off. He's done it all though, a lock for the Hall of Fame and will go down as an all time great. Hope he sticks around in the sport via training or commentary. His knowledge and brain as impressive as his physical talents.


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    #5
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,691 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    Hemd wrote: »
    What a waste of talent.

    Not at all. He achieved a great deal with his talent, and to trout that old cliche; is retiring of his own volition, rather than boxing retiring him. Good luck to him.


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    #6
    Henno30
    Registered Users Posts: 2,225 ✭✭✭Henno30


    Andre Ward is 33 and just had the biggest win of his career. Do people seriously believe that he's retiring?


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    #7
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,691 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    pac_man wrote: »
    If true,good for him. Never really liked his style and his attitude out of the ring was vexatious but you'd have to appreciate his intelligence inside the ring.

    How exactly was he vexatious? That description would be more apt for the likes of Froch. He still can't accept that Ward schooled him and got narky with an interviewer who would not agree with his opinion on Ward. At least you accept he was a smart fighter inside the ring


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    #8
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    His two biggest "wins" are also the most contentious. I thought he lost fight 1 on points to SK, and fight 2 my views are well known. Down on the cards and then wins via clear fouling.


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    #9
    Maravilla33
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭Maravilla33


    walshb wrote: »
    His two biggest "wins" are also the most contentious. I thought he lost fight 1 on points to SK, and fight 2 my views are well known. Down on the cards and then wins via clear fouling.

    It's mad how contentious they are. Like If you were to sit down and think how can I write this so that it leaves the whole match up unresolved you couldn't do much better.

    Still when all is said and done he is one of the best super MWs of all time both achievements wise and when viewed from a H2H point of view. I also respect that he did move up to challenge the man at light heavy. Pity we got no closure on that one.

    What I find most disappointing about him retiring is it gives Carl Froch another excuse to talk about himself. #Wartrencheswembley


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    #10
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Maravilla33 wrote: »
    It's mad how contentious they are. Like If you were to sit down and think how can I write this so that it leaves the whole match up unresolved you couldn't do much better.

    Still when all is said and done he is one of the best super MWs of all time both achievements wise and when viewed from a H2H point of view. I also respect that he did move up to challenge the man at light heavy. Pity we got no closure on that one.

    What I find most disappointing about him retiring is it gives Carl Froch another excuse to talk about himself. #Wartrencheswembley

    Challenged the man at LHW? Kovalev or Chad Dawson?

    I don't see either as much of a move or step up considering that Ward really is a LHW boiled down to 168 lbs. Fought at 178 lbs as a 20 year old in Athens


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    #11
    Maravilla33
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭Maravilla33


    You're a hard man to please. I meant Kovalev. Ward could have stayed at Super Mid and didn't have to challenge a seriously dangerous opponent in a division he hadn't fought in professionally. I give him kudos for that. Pity the way the fights panned out.


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    #12
    Sweet Science
    Closed Accounts Posts: 890 ✭✭✭Sweet Science


    Major Kudos for him moving up and fighting a dangerous man.

    He was horrible to watch though looking back - didnt really like his style at all


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    #13
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Maravilla33 wrote: »
    You're a hard man to please. I meant Kovalev. Ward could have stayed at Super Mid and didn't have to challenge a seriously dangerous opponent in a division he hadn't fought in professionally. I give him kudos for that. Pity the way the fights panned out.

    When speaking about ATG status then the bar has to be set high.

    I just don't see any real brilliance with a big SMW pro moving up a few lbs to meet a LHW. Plus, I felt he lost fight 1 to SK, and fouled his way to a win in fight 2.

    History is full of greats going through the weights to meet men of equal size, bigger size, and clearly bigger size. Look at Jones and Toney as two real solid examples.

    Ward IMO didn't move up at all. He fought in a division that was pretty much his natural division.

    The guy didn't give away anything. Dawson was rumored to be a little weight drained anyway. And that fight was at 168, wasn't it?

    So, Ward tested himself once in the "moving up" stakes, and really, how much of a test was that as regards moving up?


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    #14
    Maravilla33
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭Maravilla33


    walshb wrote: »
    When speaking about ATG status then the bar has to be set high.

    I just don't see any real brilliance with a big SMW pro moving up a few lbs to meet a LHW. Plus, I felt he lost fight 1 to SK, and fouled his way to a win in fight 2.

    History is full of greats going through the weights to meet men of equal size, bigger size, and clearly bigger size. Look at Jones and Toney as two real solid examples.

    Ward IMO didn't move up at all. He fought in a division that was pretty much his natural division.

    The guy didn't give away anything. Dawson was rumored to be a little weight drained anyway.

    I'm more taking into account who he moved up to face than the extra few lbs. I give him credit for jumping straight up into a fight vs a very dangerous opponent. I think its harsh to penalise him for being big. Most boxers boil down to fight in a division lower than needed. Tommy Hearns was a giant welter but I still give him credit for fighting hagler in his first MW fight.

    Ignore the results against Kovalev, my credit is purely for deciding to jump up and fight him. You say he gave away nothing. Size wise you're right but he still moved up to fight the most dangerous guy he could. Thats refreshing for me.


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    #15
    Maravilla33
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭Maravilla33


    Dawson was weight drained but I'm talking about the fight vs Kovalev


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    #16
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Maravilla33 wrote: »

    Ignore the results against Kovalev, my credit is purely for deciding to jump up and fight him. You say he gave away nothing. Size wise you're right but he still moved up to fight the most dangerous guy he could. Thats refreshing for me.

    But in an ATG scenario it doesn't at all stand out for me. Just another fight against a man the same size. Ward was pretty much a LHW. He was the last few years anyway. And he was even heavier aged 20. There was no jump up. He was at LHW a while before meeting SK.

    Anyway, we could labor the point too much. Ward as a LHW meeting another LHW....big deal.


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    #17
    Morrison J
    Registered Users Posts: 3,853 ✭✭✭Morrison J


    Embarrassed Froch with one hand and exposed the biggest myth in boxing that was Kovalev's "hard man" image. Deserves more credit than he gets imo but didn't always help himself.


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    #18
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Morrison J wrote: »
    Embarrassed Froch with one hand and exposed the biggest myth in boxing that was Kovalev's "hard man" image. Deserves more credit than he gets imo but didn't always help himself.

    What hard man image? If you are referring to fight 2 then I can't really see what he exposed in that fight...

    Fight 1 we all thought would be competitive.

    He is a hard man, but so is Ward.


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    #19
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,691 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    pac_man wrote: »
    I'm sure I'm not the only one that shares this opinion. His level of achievements are excellent and given that he's a yank, he should be a lot more popular than he actually is. I found his condescension towards past opponents and his general level of arrogance to be irritating. Using retirement as a negotiating strategy as a way of getting out of a rematch clause. I'm still not fully convinced this is his official retirement but only time will tell.

    Agree with Froch. He still comes across as someone that needs his ego stroked.

    Well i believe he has retired. It's no coincidence he announces his retirement the day after Rio announces he is taking up boxing.

    But seriously i always thought he came across as articulate and well mannered. He has belief in his own ability, that's for sure. There is a fine line between being cocky and self- confident. I always felt he was the latter, where as the likes of Froch is full of himself, because deep down he is insecure. Which I don't understand given what he has achieved.


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    #20
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,691 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    walshb wrote: »
    What hard man image? If you are referring to fight 2 then I can't really see what he exposed in that fight...

    Fight 1 we all thought would be competitive.

    He is a hard man, but so is Ward.

    Well if he proved only one thing, it's that he proved he could take Kovalev's power. I agree, that he probably lost the first fight, but won the second.
    He deserves credit for taking on the danger man in that division. Contrast his attitude, with the likes of Mayweather, Triple G who never stepped up to take on a dangerous foe. I was impressed of his outclassing of a peak Kessler. Is it that you never rated Kessler? At the time, Kessler had only lost to Calzaghe- and it has been suggested he carried a bad injury going in to the fight which would have affected his performance.


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    #21
    megadodge
    Registered Users Posts: 5,317 ✭✭✭megadodge


    walshb wrote: »
    But in an ATG scenario it doesn't at all stand out for me. Just another fight against a man the same size. Ward was pretty much a LHW. He was the last few years anyway. And he was even heavier aged 20. There was no jump up. He was at LHW a while before meeting SK.

    Anyway, we could labor the point too much. Ward as a LHW meeting another LHW....big deal.

    Andre Ward boxed at light-heavy in the 2004 Olympics in order to let Andre Dirrell box at middle. They were good friends and Ward showed tremendous confidence (and decency) by deciding to move up in order to prevent them meeting in the trials. He won gold and Dirrell took bronze. Ward was well capable of making middleweight at the time and would not have lost to Dirrell. And everyone in US amateur boxing knew it.

    You also mentioned earlier that Ward was a LHW boiling down for virtually all his super-middle days. That's a load of tosh! Even if the above explanation for his Olympic weight wasn't true, he made the super-middle limit for all those fights, the same as his opponents. Which means he was a super-middle! I hate this crap of trying to denigrate boxers for being 'bigger' than their opponents. They're called 'weight' divisions for a reason. And to be honest I never thought Ward looked particularly big, in the way Kessler did for example. Now there's a huge super-middle.

    Having said all that, I never liked watching Ward. Horrible style. But he was a great boxer, who beat a high-quality field as a 10/1 outsider to win the Super Six tournament, which is why he didn't move up. Then when he did, he faced the most dangerous light-heavy out there. I thought he nicked the first one, but it was close. The less said about the refereeing of the second the better. Suffice to say the American referee didn't penalise the American for fouling.


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    #22
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Whatever. He was a LHW meeting a LHW... no jump in weight.


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    #23
    Burial.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,131 ✭✭✭Burial.


    If Ward was a full blown LHW then his achievements at 168 only elevate his legacy even higher. People have been trying to put down Ward his entire career it's crazy. I get his style isn't the most eye friendly but real should be able to recognise real. The whoopings he put on the likes of Kessler, Froch and Dawson are incredible. I see bitter old Kovalev has come out saying Ward retired because he was afraid of him. Ward messed Kovalev up a lot worse than initially thought it seems. I guess Kovalev can always say "I told you so" when he said he'd finish Ward's career...:pac:


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    #24
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Ward had a very good career.

    I simply don't see much "extra" brilliance in him meeting a man his own size in an equal weight class. It was simply a fight against the best two LHWs.

    Kovalev though his pro career campaigned as the "bigger" man, but Ward had several bouts during his early career above 168, and a few fights prior to SK he was fighting above 168.

    Also, it's not like he was moving up as some real underdog. The betting favorite was Ward.

    This wasn't Duran Hagler or Leonard Hagler or even Duran Leonard stuff....

    They are examples of real step ups.

    Even Rigo-Loma is by far a bigger step up and task....

    Let's not overrate the LHW match in Ward's favor. Two very good LHWs evenly matched in all areas.

    And my own view on his two biggest fights are that he really failed to shine in either.

    His career at SMW was quality.


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    #25
    megadodge
    Registered Users Posts: 5,317 ✭✭✭megadodge


    I don't regard the Dawson fight as a good win, as Dawson was a career light-heavy who had to boil down to 12stone for that fight and was as weak as water throughout. I was very disappointed with Ward for doing that rather than moving up.

    Though that does show what happens when a 'natural' light-heavy boils down to super-middle, which shows up that nonsense argument that has been invented on this thread.


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    #26
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    megadodge wrote: »
    I don't regard the Dawson fight as a good win, as Dawson was a career light-heavy who had to boil down to 12stone for that fight and was as weak as water throughout. I was very disappointed with Ward for doing that rather than moving up.

    Though that does show what happens when a 'natural' light-heavy boils down to super-middle, which shows up that nonsense argument that has been invented on this thread.

    Who on the thread said that Ward boiled down to SMW?

    Edit....I did actually say it in one of my posts.

    Anyway, my main-key point stands. When they met both were natural and strong LHWs, and Ward did fight at LHW several times prior to SK. That is indisputable.

    He did NOT move up in weight specifically for the SK fight. He was at LHW before it.


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    #27
    megadodge
    Registered Users Posts: 5,317 ✭✭✭megadodge


    walshb wrote: »
    Ward had a very good career.

    I simply don't see much "extra" brilliance in him meeting a man his own size in an equal weight class. It was simply a fight against the best two LHWs.

    Kovalev though his pro career campaigned as the "bigger" man, but Ward had several bouts during his early career above 168, and a few fights prior to SK he was fighting above 168.

    Also, it's not like he was moving up as some real underdog. The betting favorite was Ward.

    This wasn't Duran Hagler or Leonard Hagler or even Duran Leonard stuff....

    They are examples of real step ups.

    Even Rigo-Loma is by far a bigger step up and task....

    Let's not overrate the LHW match in Ward's favor. Two very good LHWs evenly matched in all areas.

    And my own view on his two biggest fights are that he really failed to shine in either.

    His career at SMW was quality.

    More nonsense!!

    In 5 of Ward's first 10 fights he weighed on or under the MIDDLEWEIGHT limit !! In 2 others of that 10 he was only 1/4 pound over and 1 pound over the same limit, which tallies perfectly with what I said earlier about his Olympic weight.

    Andre Ward was a career super-middleweight, who moved up to light-heavy for his last 4 fights. Get over it.


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    #28
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    megadodge wrote: »
    More nonsense!!

    In 5 of Ward's first 10 fights he weighed on or under the MIDDLEWEIGHT limit !! In 2 others of that 10 he was only 1/4 pound over and 1 pound over it, the same limit, which tallies nicely with what I said earlier about his Olympic weight.

    Andre Ward was a career super-middleweight, who moved up to light-heavy for his last 4 fights. Get over it.

    How is my true and factual comment nonsense?

    Did he or did he not fight above 168 in earlier fights?

    Whether he fought below 168 is irrelevant. I never claimed he did not. I made a simple point that he fought at above 168 pre SK...that is fact.

    Your spoiling for an argument doesn't change that fact. You're arguing over a few lbs here and there. Pathetic.


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    #29
    megadodge
    Registered Users Posts: 5,317 ✭✭✭megadodge


    Four years into his pro career, in his 17th fight he finally weighed a whopping 3 pounds over super-middle in a non-title fight. Then nearly a year later in his 20th fight he weighed a whopping 3.25 pounds over the super-middle limit.

    That's it until the Paul Smith fight nearly eleven years into his career.

    Even you can't pretend that equates to "Ward had several bouts during his early career above 168".

    And even if you do pretend, two fights at 12st 3lb in eleven year doesn't sound like a light-heavy boiling down to super-middle to me.

    You're making it up as you go along hoping nobody will notice.

    I don't even like Ward that much, but your mistruths are exactly how internet rumours end up becoming accepted as fact when nobody questions them.


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    #30
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 55,049 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    There are no mistruths. Just facts.

    He fought above 168 during his career....


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    #31
    megadodge
    Registered Users Posts: 5,317 ✭✭✭megadodge


    walshb wrote: »
    Ward had several bouts during his early career above 168

    .


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