Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

Mebuntu

Ryanair was due to post today details of contingency plans in the event of the now abandoned strike going ahead. It would have been interesting to hear if those plans included Aer Lingus providing aircraft and crews at market rate in reciprocation for Ryanair doing the same for them when they had to deal with strikes.

The parked up A330 could have proved very useful.

basill

Good luck with that idea. Many of the aircraft are off in maintenance and crews on leave. Any spare aircraft would be needed to recover our own schedule which is busy enough along with a bit of charter work thrown in.

Bob24

Ryanair management now seems to openly recognise there are issues: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ryanair-culture-gone-very-miserable-says-airline-executive-1.3332320

Bob24

Apparently some German pilots are unhappy that their union (VC) called-off the strike.

Curious to know what will come out of the talks today.

It also seems like Impact in Ireland wasn’t exactly happy as Ryanair refused to provide any written document confirming they recognise them.

I’d say new strike threats for a day between Christmas’s and the New Year and not off the cards.

Bob24

Interesting to see how the IALPA and Ryanair each describe the meeting they had :-)

Impact/IALPA:

While Ryanair management said they recognized IMPACT/IALPA for collective bargaining purposes at this evening’s meeting, they said they were unable to give the union a piece of paper to confirm this. This is disappointing given all that’s been said in the media over the last five days, said IMPACT (Irish Municipal, Public and Civil Trade Union), of which the Irish Air Line Pilots’ Association (IALPA) is a branch, following a meeting with management on Dec. 19.

The union reiterated . . . that its mandate for strike action can be implemented, after the required notice is given, in the absence of a timely agreement.

Ryanair:

Ryanair last evening (Dec. 19) had a positive meeting with its Irish pilots’ council and their union representatives. The union put forward proposals for negotiations and we agreed to respond to them in writing by Thursday (Dec. 21). Further meetings are taking place with the German and Portuguese pilot unions this week.

Mebuntu

Interesting to see how the IALPA and Ryanair each describe the meeting they had

I think that there is very good reason for the difference.

Anyone who believes that mere "union recognition" or "collective bargaining" for employees will be the sole aim of the unions is living in cloud-cuckoo land.

To the unions "recognition" means many things.

Once they are inside the door it won't end there. In their eyes, Ryanair has been the chief purveyor of what they call the "race to the bottom". It is inevitable that their immediate aim will be to set about targetting every single aspect of the lean business model that has enabled the airline to deliver way lower fares than their competitors. It is also certain that retribution will be high on the agenda whilst MOL is still there.

In order to achieve this, before anything begins and while they hold the upper hand, they will want it in writing that, from now on, no management decisions will be made without their consent. A simple example, the freedom of management to close a base because it's unprofitable or the aircraft can be used with better profitability elsewhere.

Undoubtedly, there are serious issues that should have been dealt with (I think the Cabin Crew Pay/T&C's is the worst of the lot by a country mile) and Ryanair have only themselves to blame for those. They must now be bitterly regretting not taking remedial action in time.

By the time the unions have finished, if they get their way in full, the legendary low, low fares will be a thing of the past. The significant fares differential with other airlines that keeps passenger numbers increasing by the millions will no longer be as significant with obvious results - unless the airline and its shareholders are willing to take a big hit on profits.

I must say, despite his comments today, I find it hard to see MOL staying in situ if his business instincts that have (mostly) served the company well, are, effectively, going be frustrated or throttled by the control the unions seek.

This saga is a long, long way from being over.

trellheim

Once they are inside the door it won't end there. In their eyes, Ryanair has been the chief purveyor of what they call the "race to the bottom". It is inevitable that their immediate aim will be to set about targetting every single aspect of the lean business model that has enabled the airline to deliver way lower fares than their competitors. It is also certain that retribution will be high on the agenda whilst MOL is still there.

In order to achieve this, before anything begins and while they hold the upper hand, they will want it in writing that, from now on, no management decisions will be made without their consent. A simple example, the freedom of management to close a base because it's unprofitable or the aircraft can be used with better profitability elsewhere.

Undoubtedly, there are serious issues that should have been dealt with (I think the Cabin Crew Pay/T&C's is the worst of the lot by a country mile) and Ryanair have only themselves to blame for those. They must now be bitterly regretting not taking remedial action in time.

By the time the unions have finished, if they get their way in full, the legendary low, low fares will be a thing of the past. The significant fares differential with other airlines that keeps passenger numbers increasing by the millions will no longer be as significant with obvious results - unless the airline and its shareholders are willing to take a big hit on profits.

I must say, despite his comments today, I find it hard to see MOL staying in situ if his business instincts that have (mostly) served the company well, are, effectively, going be frustrated or throttled by the control the unions seek.

I doubt it to be honest - it will cost a few quid to be sure but I doubt it will be wholesale upheaval as you describe . I'd be interested in an actual mid-career 737 pilots view of the rostering and what other t's and c's are like, and if becoming a fulltimer and so on, what the value of these kind of things are.

Bob24

I am actually wondering whether the decision to recognise unions was forced upon MOL by the board.

But again it had became unavoidable and he has only himself to blame if he’s not happy with that outcome.

View Profile

Bob24 wrote:

I am actually wondering whether the decision to recognise unions was forced upon MOL by the board.

Undoubtedly.

However in MOLs recent press release he states the idea to allow unions in was actual HIS idea.

The poor lad can't help but spew BS 24/7!

devnull

German strike going ahead it seems

Apparently there were concerns that the council proposed by VC contained a number of non Ryanair Pilots.
https://corporate.ryanair.com/news/ryanair-regrets-unnecessary-4-hour-german-strike-threat-for-fri-22-dec/

At Ryanair’s meeting with the VC and their Ryanair Pilots Council on Wed 20 Dec, the VC confirmed that the Ryanair Pilots Council had not been elected by Ryanair’s pilots, and contained one former contract pilot who had not flown for Ryanair for 15 months, who is currently in litigation with Ryanair in Germany.

Ryanair explained that it was happy to negotiate with its German pilots and the VC officials but it would not enter into negotiations with non-Ryanair pilots, or a non-Ryanair pilot who is in litigation with Ryanair.

Have to say I don't see any reason for non employees to be involved and no company is going to allow someone who is currently the subject of legal action by the company be involved in such things. I assume this is one of the people that is being sued for defamation they are refering to?

It seems Impact and IALPA, have established committees of Ryanair Pilots which is how it should be, a shame that the Germans couldn't do the same thing - realistically the pilots should call the strike off and demand a ballot to elect their own representatives that are current serving staff.

Bob24

Quite limited but some quotes from VC reps here explaining their point of view as well: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ryanair-pilots-germany/german-pilots-union-calls-for-a-strike-on-friday-at-ryanair-idUSKBN1EF27I?il=0

German unions are strong and pilots there seem pissed-off and ready to take action. It might become a bit of a headache for Ryanair. If there are strikes and Ryanair makes concessions, it will become a template for unions in other countries. But if there are no concessions it could also escalate in Germany and spread elsewhere.

devnull

No business I have worked for would accept a disgruntled former contractor who is involved with litigation with the company as a representative of current staff at the company and for very good reasons.

The Ryanair pilots should also ask themselves if such person would be able to represent them objectively as well bearing that in mind that it would appear there is some baggage between the individual and the company.

There's no reason for such people to be involved, the pilots should be represented by fellow pilots to ensure that the pilots are working in their own interests and not in the interests of their competitors or other interest groups with a grudge.

Bazzy

devnull wrote: »

No business I have worked for would accept a disgruntled former contractor who is involved with litigation with the company as a representative of current staff at the company and for very good reasons.

The Ryanair pilots should also ask themselves if such person would be able to represent them objectively as well bearing that in mind that it would appear there is some baggage between the individual and the company.

There's no reason for such people to be involved, the pilots should be represented by fellow pilots to ensure that the pilots are working in their own interests and not in the interests of their competitors or other interest groups with a grudge.

In my last job we we're faced with such a position someone who had been dismissed a result of their own actions , They tried to set up a mini union away from the main recognised union.

We obviously didnt engage and told them as much in a polite manner

But i'd agree with Ryanair on this one they're dancing with the devil as it is without having to deal with that

Bob24

devnull wrote: »

No business I have worked for would accept a disgruntled former contractor who is involved with litigation with the company as a representative of current staff at the company and for very good reasons.

The Ryanair pilots should also ask themselves if such person would be able to represent them objectively as well bearing that in mind that it would appear there is some baggage between the individual and the company.

There's no reason for such people to be involved, the pilots should be represented by fellow pilots to ensure that the pilots are working in their own interests and not in the interests of their competitors or other interest groups with a grudge.

The situation is probably not as simple as you picture it (you mostly base your views on Ryanair's version of the story which is obviously biased - as the version of the union would also be).

Pilots are no more stupid than the average Joe here and have no reason to send "bad" representatives, so it is probably a bit more complicated than that. To know if unions are taking the piss (or if it is Ryanair, or both), it would take someone who knows how unions are usually organised in Germany and exactly what is the background/situation of these pilots.

Mebuntu

Nobody should be surprised. This is just the beginning of the retribution I mentioned in an earlier post. I also omitted to mention the word vindictiveness.

Out of all the pilots available, purposely choosing people they knew Ryanair wouldn't deal with gives them the opprtunity to flex their muscles and at the same time claim that Ryanair had reneged.

The words and tone of their statement confirm this.

Add to this that Lufthansa and its unions don't want Ryanair to get a stronghold in Germany and, like everything else in that country, they always look after number 1 even when EU regulations don't allow it.

Expect more of the same to come.

la ultima guagua

Bob24 wrote: »

The situation is probably not as simple as you picture it ...

Indeed.

Who has the most to gain from a Ryanair German bases strike

I would suggest that it is NOT

- Said pilots

or

- Ryanair

what of

- Other airlines with significant German operations ?

devnull

Bob24 wrote: »

The situation is probably not as simple as you picture it (you mostly base your views on Ryanair's version of the story which is obviously biased - as the version of the union would also be).

Someone who is in legal proceedings with a former employer tends not to be the most objective person when it comes to dealing with that employer as normally such people have left on very bad terms and are often very disgruntled and have a grudge and want some kind of retribution.

If you were a C level executive in a company would you allow a disgruntled former employee who is involved in litigation, I assume about defamation in this case, to represent your existing staff and be totally comfortable with that and not be worried at all?

Because honestly I can tell you from working alongside a HR Department there is no way that anyone would allow that because it would just foster an air of distrust and suspicion at all times and wouldn't bring the sides further together at all, move drive them apart.

If what Ryanair says is not true why do VC not come out and say that it isn't? Their statement has a lot of rhetoric but is notable for the fact that it completely fails to mention anything of any real substance or detail as to why.

Bob24

la ultima guagua wrote: »

Indeed.

Who has the most to gain from a Ryanair German bases strike

I would suggest that it is NOT

- Said pilots

or

- Ryanair

what of

- Other airlines with significant German operations ?

I don't pretend I know the situation enough to make a call on what the real issue is.

But posters here who assume they know what is good for the pilots better than the pilots know themselves have limited credibility in my view. Pilots know the exact situation on the ground and are personally involved ... posters here don't and are often taking sides.

duskyjoe

Devnull....I’ve seen enough. Your way too partisan as a Mod. Disgraceful. Ban me.

L1011

duskyjoe wrote: »

Devnull....I’ve seen enough. Your way too partisan as a Mod. Disgraceful. Ban me.

He can't ban you here, as he's not a mod here and you'll note he has been warned in this thread. And you're being warned as this kind of post is unacceptable regardless of what poster it is about

CoisFharraige

My German from college has never come in handy, but here we go I might as well put it to use, I've translated this from the VC German union's website. Strike didn't cause much damage externally as it seems, and most flights were only delayed slightly as they flew in crews as expected.

This Friday morning at 9am brought an end to the strike of Ryanair pilots in Germany. From the point of view of Vereinigung Cockpit (VC) the strike was successful. The strike was very high in numbers and an overwhelming majority of Ryanair's employees supported the strike.

A spokesperson for them, Markus Wahl, said "Almost half of the flights concerned are delayed and, on the other flights, Ryanair used pilots who were not partaking in the strike, such as non-permanent pilots or, as in Frankfurt am Main, pilots in their probationary period. "Although they wanted to show fake results, this didn't change the actual result being that the pressure that the pilots wanted to produce definitely hit-home.

In the period up to 26.12.2017, there will be no further industrial action at Ryanair.

"Whether or not this means further strikes after Christmas, depends solely on Ryanair's management. It's obvious that we want to negotiate with the VC [to RYR] at an equal level without any strings attached, we are ready for talks. On the other hand, if Ryanair wants to again decide who exactly they want to negotiate with, then it's clear to us that they don't really want to resolve this, and that strike action is again not out of the question, by any means." added Ingolf Schumacher, chairman of collective bargaining at the VC.

"The fear of retaliation in the company is noticeably decreasing, despite this, a permanent Ryanair pilot was fired by the company last month, two days after it emerged that he was a member of the VC. Of course, it is not right that the collective bargaining commission can be deprived of the right to continue to negotiate and support this bargaining just because it has found itself in a dismissal protection lawsuit - it's not right." Concluded Schumacher.

Mebuntu

As I read that article it painted a picture of highly-paid, well-off and thoughtless, selfish men gloating about their efforts to upset the Christmas homecoming plans of ordinary hard-working people. I suspect they might be among the most difficult to negotiate with. Only time will tell.

smurfjed

You do realise that Ryanair have treated their pilots like crap for years ? So I’m not sure where you are getting the idea that they are well paid and well off.

billy few mates

smurfjed wrote: »

You do realise that Ryanair have treated their pilots like crap for years ? So I’m not sure where you are getting the idea that they are well paid and well off.

Ignore him, he’s trolling...

donkey balls

Was informed yesterday that the contract lads hourly rate of pay is going up in the new year, Nothing mentioned about the employed lads.

pepe the prawn

donkey balls wrote: »

Was informed yesterday that the contract lads hourly rate of pay is going up in the new year, Nothing mentioned about the employed lads.

FO’s or just captains or both?

donkey balls

pepe the prawn wrote: »

FO’s or just captains or both?

My mate is an FO not sure about captains.

donkey balls

The pay rise is for all contractors.

Bob24

So Ryanair is meeting Impact members today and apparently expected to formally recognise them as representatives of pilots.

Bob24

Bob24 wrote: »

So Ryanair is meeting Impact members today and apparently expected to formally recognise them as representatives of pilots.

No final deal yet but positive noise from the union:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/ryanair-talks-with-pilots-constructive-says-union-1.3343749