Isn't multiculturalism great...

Noel82

Brian? wrote: »

That's the great thing about multiculturalism.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds

"when asked to what extent they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher...

Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain, and 39% agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole. Nearly a third (31%) thought it was acceptable for a British Muslim man to have more than one wife"

There is large scale social problems with mass Muslim immigration in Europe, there's nothing great about it. Merkel admits this.

"“Those who seek refuge with us also have to respect our laws and traditions, and learn to speak German,” she said. “Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies, and therefore multiculturalism remains a grand delusion.”

Her comments echoed a similar statement from 2010, when Merkel said multiculturalism had “utterly failed”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/14/angela-merkel-pledge-cut-german-immigration-figures

OnDraught

OnDraught wrote: »

This is essentially it. There's extremists on this thread that will never be able to fathom that the vast majority of people despite their race, religion, colour, sexual preference and whatnot just want to get on with getting on.

Then its a sign of good people... not multiculturalism... ie. they're great people regardless of their culture, religion etc.

OnDraught

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Then its a sign of good people... not multiculturalism... ie. they're great people regardless of their culture, religion etc.

Agreed. There's bad Catholics, bad protestants, bad Muslims, bad atheists etc but why are brown or black people always the discussion of these threads?

Ireland has the chance of really being a good example of how good multiculturalism can be because I believe we don't have the the cultural hang ups of the likes of the French or the Brits because we never had the colonialist hang ups they have.

Noel82

OnDraught wrote: »

Agreed. There's bad Catholics, bad protestants, bad Muslims, bad atheists etc but why are brown or black people always the discussion of these threads?

It's the ideology, color has nothing to do with it for me. Islam has no comparison in this day and age when it comes to negatives, undoubtedly there are fine Muslim people, but also undoubtedly by undeniable proof, mass Muslim immigration in recent times has led to significant social and security problems throughout Europe.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/huge-scale-of-terror-threat-revealed-uk-home-to-23-000-jihadists-3zvn58mhq

"Intelligence officers have identified 23,000 jihadist extremists living in Britain as potential terrorist attackers, it emerged yesterday. The scale of the challenge facing the police and security services was disclosed by Whitehall sources after criticism that multiple opportunities to stop the Manchester bomber had been missed."


http://news.sky.com/story/record-number-of-terror-related-arrests-11034789


"A record number of people have been arrested for terrorism-related offences, according to official figures.
The Home Office has announced that there were 379 arrests in Britain in the 12 months to June.


Sky News Home Affairs Correspondent Mark White said: "This 379 arrest figure is 68% higher than the 226 people who were arrested for the same period the year before.


"Significantly, it's the highest number of arrests in a year since they began recording terror arrest statistics back in 2001 after the attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon in the US."

OnDraught

OnDraught wrote: »

Agreed. There's bad Catholics, bad protestants, bad Muslims, bad atheists etc but why are brown or black people always the discussion of these threads?

I've never used skin colour as a primary reference. I tend to use religion (islam, catholic), or geographical (Iran, M.East) etc.

In fact, I can't immediately remember any discussions where their skin colour was a primary concern.. rather just their religion or cultural background.

Ireland has the chance of really being a good example of how good multiculturalism can be because I believe we don't have the the cultural hang ups of the likes of the French or the Brits because we never had the colonialist hang ups they have.

I think it's far too early to say because Ireland hasn't had to deal with the larger migrant populations coming in, the ghetto's, the gangs, the street violence, the police scandals, or more importantly, the terrorism..

Once Ireland has experienced some of these things and moved past them successfully, then I'll sing its praises.. but I've lived in other countries with longer histories of multiculturalism.. and frankly there are usually major issues under the surface or simmering on the surface.

OnDraught

Noel82 wrote: »

It's the ideology, color has nothing to do with it for me. Islam has no comparison in this day and age when it comes to negatives, undoubtedly there are fine Muslim people, but also undoubtedly by undeniable proof, mass Muslim immigration in recent times has led to significant social and security problems throughout Europe.

Yes, undoubtedly there is a massive problem at the moment but these arabs or muslims have lived in Britain, France, Belgium etc quite peacefully for quite a long time. Since the attacks in the states the situation has got out of control and bin Laden has probably succeeded beyond his wildest imagination. The extremists on both sides are to blame for this.

Noel82 wrote: »

"Significantly, it's the highest number of arrests in a year since they began recording terror arrest statistics back in 2001 after the attacks on the Twin Towers and the Pentagon in the US."

My father and uncle were held in the late '70's on a ferry heading to a rugby match on terror related charges. Why do the records only begin in 2001?

OnDraught

[Deleted User] wrote: »

the ghetto's, the gangs, the street violence, the police scandals, or more importantly, the terrorism..

Once Ireland has experienced some of these things and moved past them successfully, then I'll sing its praises.. but I've lived in other countries with longer histories of multiculturalism.. and frankly there are usually major issues under the surface or simmering on the surface.

Haha, yeah we know nothing of tenements, towers, families homeless, street violence or police scandals. Luckily our terrorism is in the past.

OnDraught

OnDraught wrote: »

Haha, yeah we know nothing of tenements, towers, families homeless, street violence or police scandals. Luckily our terrorism is in the past.

We know all of those things from a domestic perspective. Of Irish people. But it's different when theres a race issue or a culture issue.

OnDraught

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We know all of those things from a domestic perspective. Of Irish people. But it's different when theres a race issue or a culture issue.

It was always a cultural issue. Race is a new thing but it will never be a reason. The same old reasons will always apply.

OnDraught

OnDraught wrote: »

It was always a cultural issue. Race is a new thing but it will never be a reason. The same old reasons will always apply.

I dont really get what you're saying... "Race is a new thing but it will never be a reason." what?

The same old reasons will always apply.

Well Obviously.. Since they're people.. But there will be other consderations too.

Ok.. just to be clear.. you think that Ireland has already proven itself better than the continent when dealing with migration, multiculturalism and integration?

gitzy16v

OnDraught wrote: »

It was always a cultural issue. Race is a new thing but it will never be a reason. The same old reasons will always apply.

No it wasnt...The goal was United Ireland with our domestic terrorism,not cultural superiority.Which is what these extremists want.

OnDraught

gitzy16v wrote: »

No it wasnt...The goal was United Ireland with our domestic terrorism,not cultural superiority.Which is what these extremists want.

Maybe. But it's cultural differences that ensure that we won't be united with our northern friends any time soon. It's safe to say there's an issue with superiority there.

OnDraught

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We know all of those things from a domestic perspective. Of Irish people. But it's different when theres a race issue or a culture issue.

Not particularly. There's a race issue regarding travellers who are now recognised as an ethnicity. There's a cultural issue regarding Protestants. It's nothing new.

OnDraught

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ok.. just to be clear.. you think that Ireland has already proven itself better than the continent when dealing with migration, multiculturalism and integration?

No. It's fairly new to us dealing with immigration. Half of our youth are lining up to emigrate since before the foundation of our state.

We need multiculturalism to survive. I'd love to live in Dublin where I'm from. I won't unless something changes rapidly in the next 20 years.

StinkyMunkey

This thread was bait for everyone who has any problem with immigration, and it was like a piranha feeding frenzy.

Ive met people from every corner of the planet and I take them as I find them individually. But certain stereotypes ring true, not always a bad thing either.

As someone said earlier, if you wanna come to Ireland, you accept our customs and laws, if you have an issue with them, then go back to where you came from.
Is Ireland perfect, far from it, but I'm thankful for the fact I live here and not a lot of other places.

Irish society, laws or customs should never bend to pamper to other religions, again you don't like it, then off you go. For far too long Irish law was poisoned by religion, its only now changing for the better.

I'm indifferent to race, religion or creed. I don't care what you believe in, as long as your not ramming it down my throat.

If your not prepared to integrate into Irish society, then off you go. In my experience, regardless of your country of origin, race or religion, if you integrate with Irish society then you are to be welcomed with open arms.

You don't have to change your religion, your values or your ways to become a valued member of Irish society.

When I travel abroad, I respect other countries customs or laws, so I've every right to expect the same from anyone coming to Ireland to live.

If your religion restricts the jobs you can do, then so be it, why should an employer pamper to your religious beliefs. Our infrastructure, society, working schedules were not designed to cater for the whims or every religion or culture. Again the Catholic Church had way to much influence and say in that for a long time.

I'm not saying compromise isn't an option, but there should be a willingness on both sides.

Islam can be an oppressive religion in the extreme, just like every other religion out there. Islam was never the problem, it's how certain people have used and twisted it for their own personal gains. Something the Catholics did very successfully.

Religion isn't the problem, it's the twats that use it as an excuse.

OnDraught

Biko will be along now in a minute to give her view.

end of the road

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't have an issue with it staying in their own country.. hence why I don't consider criticising it, regulating or preventing it in Europe to be a bad thing. They prevent our culture, religion etc from growing in their own countries...

them preventing your culture and religion growing in their countries is no justification for us to implement the same nonsense upon them. if certain aspects interfere with the law such as fgm for example, that's a different story. but outside that, us regulating them in a free democratic country, because they do it to us in a theocratic dictatorship, has no justification and makes us as bad as those countries.

StinkyMunkey

StinkyMunkey wrote: »

This thread was bait for everyone who has any problem with immigration, and it was like a piranha feeding frenzy...

I enjoyed the really irritated ones that went on and on about my motivation...as if theirs was some neutral assessment!

suicide_circus

Multiculturalism is neither inherently good nor inherently bad.

suicide_circus

suicide_circus wrote: »

Multiculturalism is neither inherently good nor inherently bad.

And that's a valid opinion. I have a different one.

Which is that exposure to different cultures and religions is a good thing. Much like one might say "travel is a good thing" and someone else might say "it's not, you can see India on tv". Neither is really more...correct.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

them preventing your culture and religion growing in their countries is no justification for us to implement the same nonsense upon them. if certain aspects interfere with the law such as fgm for example, that's a different story. but outside that, us regulating them in a free democratic country, because they do it to us in a theocratic dictatorship, has no justification and makes us as bad as those countries.

Only because you see regulating foreign culture to be a bad thing. I don't. I see it as being necessary in a modern society because we don't have a realistic system for dealing with many cultures, within the same environment, many of which are historically hostile to each other.

Until we have a clear plan for dealing with these hotspots, I'd prefer to see cultural/religious/moralistic influences to be regulated and the host/native culture remaining dominant.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

And that's a valid opinion. I have a different one.

Which is that exposure to different cultures and religions is a good thing. Much like one might say "travel is a good thing" and someone else might say "it's not, you can see India on tv". Neither is really more...correct.

Only if you've never "travelled" extensively. (although I really mean lived somewhere longer than a month) I've been to India.. I didn't like it. You really need to see/smell the dead bodies rotting outside temples, the children begging in such large numbers, the racism and... the wonderful welcomes you get many families/individuals. You don't get much of anything from watching a tv show, reading a book, or such.. Although perhaps with the development of VR that could change...;)

It's like the way many posters here talk about Islam, without ever spending any time in a Islamic country. They haven't heard the creepy but beautiful sound of the "call to prayer", they haven't had to see the looks a white foreigner receives or the heckling from men in groups, women escorted by family members (and you receive very hostile looks)... or again the wonderful warmheared welcomes from families/individuals and the extremely cute/funny kids.

For many posters here, their experience of Islam comes from the migrants, those who have converted and TV/Books. It doesn't show the whole picture. Personally, I believe to know a culture.. you really need to see/hear/feel that culture when it's a majority culture. A people with a culture living as a minority in a country behave vastly different than when they're a majority...

bnt

I think I've said this before on another thread. Genuine multiculturalism, of the sort described by the OP, is great and can only be a good thing. However, much of what passes for multiculturalism in the world today ... isn't multiculturalism. Large numbers of one ethnic cultural group living in one place, speaking only their own language and not learning about the wider culture ... that's not multiculturalism. One group inserting themselves in to the middle of another culture, but despising the wider culture and seeking to replace it with their monoculture, by force if necessary ... that's not multiculturalism.

Tokenism, forcing a visibly "multicultural" agenda on the existing culture ...that's not multiculturalism, because genuine multiculturalism does not need to be forced. If you've watched American movies and TV from the last 100 years, do you even notice the ethnic origins of the actors unless they make it part of the story?

biko

OnDraught wrote: »

Biko will be along now in a minute to give her view.

Did you just assume my gender?

jmayo

Noel82 wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law

Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds

"when asked to what extent they agreed or disagreed that homosexuality should be legal in Britain, 18% said they agreed and 52% said they disagreed, compared with 5% among the public at large who disagreed. Almost half (47%) said they did not agree that it was acceptable for a gay person to become a teacher...

Nearly a quarter (23%) supported the introduction of sharia law in some areas of Britain, and 39% agreed that “wives should always obey their husbands”, compared with 5% of the country as a whole. Nearly a third (31%) thought it was acceptable for a British Muslim man to have more than one wife"

There is large scale social problems with mass Muslim immigration in Europe, there's nothing great about it. Merkel admits this.

"“Those who seek refuge with us also have to respect our laws and traditions, and learn to speak German,” she said. “Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies, and therefore multiculturalism remains a grand delusion.”

Her comments echoed a similar statement from 2010, when Merkel said multiculturalism had “utterly failed”.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/14/angela-merkel-pledge-cut-german-immigration-figures

I bet if you had used Daily Mail or Breitbart to back up those statements the amount of posts challenging your assertions would be like watching flies swarm over a fresh cowpat on a summer's evening.

I don't think one poster challenged the findings.

OnDraught wrote: »

Agreed. There's bad Catholics, bad protestants, bad Muslims, bad atheists etc but why are brown or black people always the discussion of these threads?

Ireland has the chance of really being a good example of how good multiculturalism can be because I believe we don't have the the cultural hang ups of the likes of the French or the Brits because we never had the colonialist hang ups they have.

Why are you trying to twist this in to a race issue ?
Who here said anything about brown or black people and if anything it shows a lack of knowledge on your part.
Or maybe you have never met or seen a white muslim, nevermind met an Albanian, Kosovan or Bosniac muslim.

Why are you, and others, trying to conflate anti one particular religion into a racist issue ?
Is it so that you can then shut down discussion with the usual go to of shouting "racist" ?

I don't have much time for the beliefs of right wing catholics, right wing bible bashing baptists, mormons, Haredi Jews, but does that mean I am anti white as most of the above are in reality white.

OnDraught wrote: »

Not particularly. There's a race issue regarding travellers who are now recognised as an ethnicity. There's a cultural issue regarding Protestants. It's nothing new.

Most people would not believe travellers are a different race no matter how some eejits climbed all over the that bight spark idea from Pavee Point.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

And that's a valid opinion. I have a different one.

Which is that exposure to different cultures and religions is a good thing.

Again, which religions? You keep saying this. Exposure to which imported religion is gonna do anyone any good? It's away from religion we should be getting in the 21st Century, it causes nothing but grief and is based and nothing scientifically concrete.

bnt

bnt wrote: »

Genuine multiculturalism, of the sort described by the OP, is great and can only be a good thing. However, much of what passes for multiculturalism in the world today ... isn't multiculturalism.

Possibly not. Perhaps I would have different views if I grew up in Bradford.

But as you say, what I experienced, and what I am saying, is that genuine multiculturalism of the type I referred to, is great.

Omackeral

Omackeral wrote: »

Again, which religions? You keep saying this. Exposure to which imported religion is gonna do anyone any good? It's away from religion we should be getting in the 21st Century, it causes nothing but grief and is based and nothing scientifically concrete.

Nationalism causes nothing but grief around the world, but she will be exposed to that. And the arts aren't exactly rooted in science, but I hope she has an appreciation for those too. After all, how dull would life be if she grows up saying "well, I do not know the scientific formula that proves that"!

gitzy16v

Omackeral wrote: »

Again, which religions? You keep saying this. Exposure to which imported religion is gonna do anyone any good? It's away from religion we should be getting in the 21st Century, it causes nothing but grief and is based and nothing scientifically concrete.

Deleted User wrote: »

Nationalism causes nothing but grief around the world, but she will be exposed to that. And the arts aren't exactly rooted in science, but I hope she has an appreciation for those too. After all, how dull would life be if she grows up saying "well, I do not know the scientific formula that proves that"!

Are you afraid to answer that question Conor?
Its been asked multiple time by the same poster and you tried squirming your way out of answering each and every time.

gitzy16v

gitzy16v wrote: »

Are you afraid to answer that question Conor?
Its been asked multiple time by the same poster and you tried squirming your way out of answering each and every time.

I thought I answered it before. Think I said Shintoism. Or Buddhism. One of them is the best anyway, obviously.