How relevant to you is the controversy over feminism?

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/s...tion-1.3563784

I feel sick. Equality my arse.

PlaneSpeeking

iptba wrote: »

The aim seems to be in some cases more to help women than gender equality per se.

If one wants to use percentages, which are a blunt measure, the denominator matters. For example, if two women apply for a position and one gets it, while 10 men apply for a position and one gets it, the outcomes may suggest equal results, but a smaller percentage of men who applied got the position than the percentage of women who applied.

I'm going to ask a - probably - dumb question here.

1. Reading about "gender blind" and "colour blind" casting in theatre. It's a great thing they say that a black man can play Shylock; a white woman can play Othello etc etc etc.

2. Scarlett Johannsen is made to withdraw from a film playing a trans woman; a white actress is forced to quit West Side Story etc etc. Only a trans womamn can play similar; only a Latina actress can play Maria...

I know I'm asking to tap into the idiotic liberal mindset but genuinely how can they square these two views ???

Wibbs

It's a white sensitive colour blindness. It's part of the oppressed/oppressor binary dynamic popular in such circles. The White heterosexual man, regardless of personal status is at the very top of the hierarchy of oppressors and everyone else is filed under the oppressed label. Whether they want to be or not. The White heterosexual woman can be included in this if she's seen to be somehow standing in the way of the long list of oppressed - but of course much lower down as feminism was and is almost exclusively a middle class White woman thing. So it's fine if a Latina lass(oppressed) plays Desdemona, but not fine if a White lass plays Maria(oppressor). That's how that circle gets squared.

Rory28

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

I'm going to ask a - probably - dumb question here.

1. Reading about "gender blind" and "colour blind" casting in theatre. It's a great thing they say that a black man can play Shylock; a white woman can play Othello etc etc etc.

2. Scarlett Johannsen is made to withdraw from a film playing a trans woman; a white actress is forced to quit West Side Story etc etc. Only a trans womamn can play similar; only a Latina actress can play Maria...

I know I'm asking to tap into the idiotic liberal mindset but genuinely how can they square these two views ???

The Scarlett Johannsen one is crazy. Is there a single Trans actor out there that can pull the eyeballs that Scarlett could? Well I hope they make a Black Widow movie instead. The prejudiced hypocrites.

PlaneSpeeking

Wibbs wrote: »

It's a white sensitive colour blindness. It's part of the oppressed/oppressor binary dynamic popular in such circles. The White heterosexual man, regardless of personal status is at the very top of the hierarchy of oppressors and everyone else is filed under the oppressed label. Whether they want to be or not. The White heterosexual woman can be included in this if she's seen to be somehow standing in the way of the long list of oppressed - but of course much lower down as feminism was and is almost exclusively a middle class White woman thing. So it's fine if a Latina lass(oppressed) plays Desdemona, but not fine if a White lass plays Maria(oppressor). That's how that circle gets squared.

Ah so good old fashioned double standards ??

If they just said that we'd have a tad more respect!

PlaneSpeeking

Wibbs wrote: »

It's a white sensitive colour blindness. It's part of the oppressed/oppressor binary dynamic popular in such circles. The White heterosexual man, regardless of personal status is at the very top of the hierarchy of oppressors and everyone else is filed under the oppressed label. Whether they want to be or not. The White heterosexual woman can be included in this if she's seen to be somehow standing in the way of the long list of oppressed - but of course much lower down as feminism was and is almost exclusively a middle class White woman thing. So it's fine if a Latina lass(oppressed) plays Desdemona, but not fine if a White lass plays Maria(oppressor). That's how that circle gets squared.

Quick check - I'm a working class heterosexual (unless Shakira asks!) Irishwoman - who grew up poor. Not much in the looks stake if that's a variable ??

How far up the oppression hit parade do I go ????

KrustyUCC

We'll you get points taken off for being white but you're oppressed thanks to misogyny

Then again you're a white woman so you wouldn't get what black women have to go through

http://www.oakpark.com/News/Articles/3-27-2018/Privilege-and-white-female-allies-/

"But I believe we can point out the white privilege of white women while also acknowledging that all of us as women have shared the experience of oppression because of our gender.

However, we must acknowledge the sliding scale of that oppression. We must recognize that women of color experience a greater level of oppression than our white counterparts because of our race or ethnicity. Confronting that reality should not divide us. In fact, not confronting it perpetuates the system that we are all trying to combat, an oppressive system that thrives on women being divided. "

You prob would have got bonus points for identifying on the LGBTQIA+ scale seeing as you're attracted to Shakira (good call btw lol)

PlaneSpeeking

KrustyUCC wrote: »

We'll you get points taken off for being white but you're oppressed thanks to misogyny

Then again you're a white woman so you wouldn't get what black women have to go through

http://www.oakpark.com/News/Articles/3-27-2018/Privilege-and-white-female-allies-/

"But I believe we can point out the white privilege of white women while also acknowledging that all of us as women have shared the experience of oppression because of our gender.

However, we must acknowledge the sliding scale of that oppression. We must recognize that women of color experience a greater level of oppression than our white counterparts because of our race or ethnicity. Confronting that reality should not divide us. In fact, not confronting it perpetuates the system that we are all trying to combat, an oppressive system that thrives on women being divided. "

You prob would have got bonus points for identifying on the LGBTQIA+ scale seeing as you're attracted to Shakira (good call btw lol)

She's a fine leg on her as the mammy was fond of saying!!!!

iptba

iptba wrote: »

The aim seems to be in some cases more to help women than gender equality per se.

If one wants to use percentages, which are a blunt measure, the denominator matters. For example, if two women apply for a position and one gets it, while 10 men apply for a position and one gets it, the outcomes may suggest equal results, but a smaller percentage of men who applied got the position than the percentage of women who applied.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/gender-equality-and-irish-theatre-1.3566900

Sir, – You reported on July 8th about the gender equality campaign agreed to by ten Irish theatres and arts festivals, which will ensure that there will be gender-blind readings and that half of all future plays commissioned by theatres will be written by women.

I agree with the former but not the latter.

Gender blind readings are positive but agreeing to stage 50 per cent of accepted plays read based on the fact that the writer is female is discriminatory and sexist. The gender of the playwright will be given more importance than the quality of the writing. To achieve a 50 per cent quota, well-written plays by men may be rejected in favour of lesser-quality plays written by women. – Yours, etc,

professore

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Quick check - I'm a working class heterosexual (unless Shakira asks!) Irishwoman - who grew up poor. Not much in the looks stake if that's a variable ??

How far up the oppression hit parade do I go ????

If my wife had a night of passion with Shakira I'd have to let that one slide. Provided I got to watch of course

H3llR4iser

iptba wrote: »

Sir, – You reported on July 8th about the gender equality campaign agreed to by ten Irish theatres and arts festivals, which will ensure that there will be gender-blind readings and that half of all future plays commissioned by theatres will be written by women.
I agree with the former but not the latter.
Gender blind readings are positive but agreeing to stage 50 per cent of accepted plays read based on the fact that the writer is female is discriminatory and sexist. The gender of the playwright will be given more importance than the quality of the writing. To achieve a 50 per cent quota, well-written plays by men may be rejected in favour of lesser-quality plays written by women. – Yours, etc,

That's the gigantic problem with "quotas", especially when applied in fields and activities that happen to have a natural imbalance to them in terms of participation.



Take IT, an historically "male dominated" environment and one often used as an example of a "bastion of patriarchy". Truth is, women simply don't flock to study Computer Science and related subject en masse, at least not nearly as much as men do. Whenever we have technical positions open at work, the CVs getting in are almost invariably 90% men / 10% women.


Yet, many companies have or are introducing quotas, in some cases very aggressively, with "at least 50% hires have to be women" policies. It should be easy to see the fallacy there, when the source pool is 90/10...

H3llR4iser

H3llR4iser wrote: »

That's the gigantic problem with "quotas", especially when applied in fields and activities that happen to have a natural imbalance to them in terms of participation.

Take IT, an historically "male dominated" environment and one often used as an example of a "bastion of patriarchy". Truth is, women simply don't flock to study Computer Science and related subject en masse, at least not nearly as much as men do. Whenever we have technical positions open at work, the CVs getting in are almost invariably 90% men / 10% women.

Actually you'll find that a lot of women in recent decades do graduate with computer science/engineering degrees, but they just don't go into that industry. Instead, they're far more likely to combine the Degree with a Masters in Business/finance and enter a side area which has higher salaries and more flexibility regarding work hours. If you look at the area of Fintech, women are very well represented.

The problem with Software Engineering or programming is the focus on deadlines, which most women have little interest in. The combination of the pressure of deadlines, but also the expectation that you will stay late, work the weekends, etc to meet the deadline... And lastly, competition... Programming tends to be a very competitive area.

Yet, many companies have or are introducing quotas, in some cases very aggressively, with "at least 50% hires have to be women" policies. It should be easy to see the fallacy there, when the source pool is 90/10...

It's pure PR. They have to introduce the Quotas because it's easy for feminists to label a company as being anti-women. Any "imbalance" is dangerous in this modern world.. regardless of the actual reasons for that imbalance. It doesn't matter that we have anti-discrimination laws, and equality panels abound... because this is not about generating an equal workplace. That was already, for the most part, achieved, and wasn't enough. This is the next step to lift women up.

H3llR4iser

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually you'll find that a lot of women in recent decades do graduate with computer science/engineering degrees, but they just don't go into that industry. Instead, they're far more likely to combine the Degree with a Masters in Business/finance and enter a side area which has higher salaries and more flexibility regarding work hours. If you look at the area of Fintech, women are very well represented.

I'm curious about where this comes from - AFAIK all stats point to only about 20% of Engineering students being women.

Deleted User wrote: »

The problem with Software Engineering or programming is the focus on deadlines, which most women have little interest in. The combination of the pressure of deadlines, but also the expectation that you will stay late, work the weekends, etc to meet the deadline... And lastly, competition... Programming tends to be a very competitive area.

In a nutshell, it's a **** job when it comes to the realm of the supposedly "cushy" ones with a pay that's not nearly as great as many people think, considering it's a job that will most likely give you baldness, obesity, most likely divorce and a bad back.

Deleted User wrote: »

It's pure PR. They have to introduce the Quotas because it's easy for feminists to label a company as being anti-women. Any "imbalance" is dangerous in this modern world.. regardless of the actual reasons for that imbalance. It doesn't matter that we have anti-discrimination laws, and equality panels abound... because this is not about generating an equal workplace. That was already, for the most part, achieved, and wasn't enough. This is the next step to lift women up.

Yep, still - makes for very bad decisions at hiring time.

H3llR4iser

H3llR4iser wrote: »

That's the gigantic problem with "quotas", especially when applied in fields and activities that happen to have a natural imbalance to them in terms of participation.



Take IT, an historically "male dominated" environment and one often used as an example of a "bastion of patriarchy". Truth is, women simply don't flock to study Computer Science and related subject en masse, at least not nearly as much as men do. Whenever we have technical positions open at work, the CVs getting in are almost invariably 90% men / 10% women.


Yet, many companies have or are introducing quotas, in some cases very aggressively, with "at least 50% hires have to be women" policies. It should be easy to see the fallacy there, when the source pool is 90/10...

It's why small companies are often still "problematic". Big companies have the pressure on them so scoop up the female and ethnic minority candidates leaving just the pesky white males for everyone else.

iptba

https://twitter.com/drcolleenmurphy/status/1021856634891644928

Reminds me of Hillary Clinton's claim:

Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.

Though in that case, a case could be made that men have it worse.

silverharp

shudder.... i cant decide if she believes her own guff or not or just like bandwagons so she can peddle her influence

H3llR4iser

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I'm curious about where this comes from - AFAIK all stats point to only about 20% of Engineering students being women.

I'm going by peer related articles in HBR and other business management magazines. So, mostly related to the US and international companies.

As for Engineering, I assume you mean software engineering?

In a nutshell, it's a **** job when it comes to the realm of the supposedly "cushy" ones with a pay that's not nearly as great as many people think, considering it's a job that will most likely give you baldness, obesity, most likely divorce and a bad back.

There was actually a period around the early 90s where women actually reached something like parity in gender ratios for programming in American specialist companies. However, then came the "app" generation, who are predominately males, and the numbers dropped considerably. At the same time though, if you look in Niche areas where software merges with other disciplines like management, you'll find more women in the roles.

I tend to point out that we have no shortage of women in many industries like Finance, but nobody complains about that. Nobody is wondering why so many women go into those roles, or the same with Auditing.

The shortage of women in IT/Software isn't due to discrimination, but interest. Same as the lack of men in teaching shows a difference in preference. Nobody is shouting about that gender "inequality".

And when we hear about the complaints about the lack of women in upper management positions, we hear suggestions to change the roles to make it easier for women to do the job, and be a "good" mother. These things are essentially incompatible but that won't stop the push... and other men/women
will have to pick up the slack to cover for these mothers... because mothers are important. Yup. More important than us single or childless people.

Yep, still - makes for very bad decisions at hiring time.

Little choice, really. There is simply too much pressure on employers to hire women instead of hiring men.

PlaneSpeeking

iptba wrote: »

https://twitter.com/drcolleenmurphy/status/1021856634891644928

Reminds me of Hillary Clinton's claim:

Though in that case, a case could be made that men have it worse.

Hang on - so in the feminist mindset, losing a husband is worse than dying ?????

Rory28

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Hang on - so in the feminist mindset, losing a husband is worse than dying ?????

There is a twisted logic there. I mean if the man is dead is he really in pain? Its complete nonsense tho. I can only imagine the fear those men faced in the final moments.

PlaneSpeeking

Rory28 wrote: »

There is a twisted logic there. I mean if the man is dead is he really in pain? Its complete nonsense tho. I can only imagine the fear those men faced in the final moments.

I know. My English granddad was in North Africa in WWII and would not talk about it. Other than watching Platoon when it came out and saying "like that love, but drier".

iptba

Rory28 wrote: »

There is a twisted logic there. I mean if the man is dead is he really in pain? Its complete nonsense tho. I can only imagine the fear those men faced in the final moments.

And even if you lived, you were often left with physical injuries or mental scars like PTSD.

iptba

I wasn't sure which thread to post this to:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/swedish-opera-singer-attacks-metoo-mob-mentality-1.3579828

Swedish opera singer attacks #metoo mob mentality
Anne Sofie von Otter blames her country’s cultural herd mentality for husband’s suicide

The 58-year-old resigned in December but the campaign continued against him and in March, while accompanying his wife on a singing tour in Australia, he took his own life.

Since then an official investigation dismissed the claims against him as unfounded. The Aftonbladet was fined for printing unsubstantiated, anonymous allegations of sexual and physical abuse. All have come too late for Fredriksson and his widow.

iptba

Transgender woman dies in men's wing of Direct Provision centre in Galway
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/transgender-woman-dies-in-mens-wing-of-direct-provision-centre-in-galway-859924.html

I wonder what happened here that she was not in the women's section. It is interesting to see how quite a proportion of feminists have negative views about transgender women and don't want them in spaces provided for women.

Bobtheman

Sick of moaning women. Sick of gender quotas . In public sector they are being promoted over men just because they are women. Not all cases but a lot.

tigger123

Bobtheman wrote: »

Sick of moaning women. Sick of gender quotas . In public sector they are being promoted over men just because they are women. Not all cases but a lot.

What source do you have for this? In which department are women being promoted over men?

tigger123

tigger123 wrote: »

What source do you have for this? In which department are women being promoted over men?

Gender/Diversity Quotas. All you have to do is look at any of the articles which praise the raising of numbers of women in various industries (Arts being a good one) where the numbers of women have increased so much to be higher than men. I wonder did they make new positions just for the women, or did they find a way to replace the males with females for those positions? (The articles never seem to mention that though.) No references to the imbalance of females in certain industries due to the quotas being introduced.

Also in some cases, "back to work" schemes, which are aimed at women who were out of the workplace due to having children, but to help them to return to the workplace. I've never seen a "back to work" scheme for men outside of the Social welfare initiatives.

Bobtheman

Bobtheman wrote: »

Sick of moaning women. Sick of gender quotas . In public sector they are being promoted over men just because they are women. Not all cases but a lot.

Now, this one I can't agree with. It's not really "women" who are complaining about the situation. It's Feminists, government officials/politicians, and the media. Most women I know are comfortable with working hard from the bottom upwards, and achieving their positions on their own merits. If they choose to have children, they take that into account, and don't scream at the unfairness of the system... fact is, they tend to rather thankful that they can take advantage of the various job sharing, or maternity related benefits.

tigger123

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Gender/Diversity Quotas. All you have to do is look at any of the articles which praise the raising of numbers of women in various industries (Arts being a good one) where the numbers of women have increased so much to be higher than men. I wonder did they make new positions just for the women, or did they find a way to replace the males with females for those positions? (The articles never seem to mention that though.) No references to the imbalance of females in certain industries due to the quotas being introduced.

Also in some cases, "back to work" schemes, which are aimed at women who were out of the workplace due to having children, but to help them to return to the workplace. I've never seen a "back to work" scheme for men outside of the Social welfare initiatives.

None of which answers my question. In which department are women being promoted over men? What Is the source for the claim?

iptba

Bobtheman wrote: »

Sick of moaning women. Sick of gender quotas . In public sector they are being promoted over men just because they are women. Not all cases but a lot.

Not exactly a published paper, but the Conductor discusses the public sector in these posts:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104498184&postcount=69

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=104498658&postcount=74

PlaneSpeeking

tigger123 wrote: »

None of which answers my question. In which department are women being promoted over men? What Is the source for the claim?

Well in my workplace there were three posts up for grabs and the shortlists were all women, either a huge coincidence or something more nefarious.

My bet is on the latter.