No bollards top of Grafton Street- possible terrorist attack?

WellThen?

A car could ram the whole way down Grafton street, was just in there this morning, i never noticed how completely vulnerable it would be. On a busy day could do some serious amount of damage.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3399176,-6.2606385,2a,75y,329.47h,82.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-kyxAT0SN8SmZaOwnvwGbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I know it's accessible for delivery vans and stuff but would it not be safer to have some bollards that could be removed after the morning deliveries or something. Collapsible poles or something.

Just wondering what people thought really....

Gatling

A waste of time and money ,close one Street off you have to close all Streets in every town and city

Richard Hillman

No, we'll wait until after the attack to sort it.

The Marxist Dublin City Council don't want to offend people either, so we'll keep it as it is.

silverharp

Gatling wrote: »

A waste of time and money ,close one Street off you have to close all Streets in every town and city

there arent too many , Henry st would be the other one, all the rest theyd just get stuck in traffic :pac:

Bredabe

They'll have quite a challenge trying to drive/run past the packs of(mule like) phone junkies/language students/entitled window shoppers with anything other than a TANK!

CelticRambler

Wouldn't have this problem if we only had self-driving cars.

In the meantime, Dublin pedestrians ignore the "red man" lights so often, they're adept at leaping out of the way of oncoming vehicles.

stimpson

Whatever you do there will always be a softer target. Your chances of being killed in a terrorist attack are vanishingly small but they make the news and scare people. We have 300 people killed on the roads every year but it doesn't put anyone off driving.

wordofwarning

IMO DCC are not too worried about terrorist attacks as all these attacks involving trucks had speed. The congestion in Dublin is so horrific, it will be difficult to gain enough speed to cause serious damage. The traffic crawls anywhere within 10 mins of Henry St/Grafton St

solodeogloria

WellThen? wrote: »

A car could ram the whole way down Grafton street, was just in there this morning, i never noticed how completely vulnerable it would be. On a busy day could do some serious amount of damage.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3399176,-6.2606385,2a,75y,329.47h,82.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-kyxAT0SN8SmZaOwnvwGbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I know it's accessible for delivery vans and stuff but would it not be safer to have some bollards that could be removed after the morning deliveries or something. Collapsible poles or something.

Just wondering what people thought really....

Good afternoon!

There definitely should be bollards on all of the side streets and at the bottom and top of Grafton Street and other pedestrian zones. This isn't a waste of money if it saves peoples lives in the event of a terrorist incident. It isn't just Islamic State that are beginning to use this method.

I was staying in Holland recently in the countryside between Amsterdam and Hilversum and on some bridges over canals they have bollards that are activated by mobile phone to come down. I was stuck at one until a resident helped me out and called the number. Have regular delivery drivers registered on the phone activation system to put them up and down.

The Gardaí are far too complacent about this and other forms of crime in the inner city. Similar measures should be considered for O'Connell Street. Raised edges on pedestrian walkways to stop cars and other vehicles mounting the kerb.

Radical jihadis aren't going away, and the far-right aren't going away. There is always the risk of an incident. There also needs to be a way of rapidly deploying armed officers into a situation to stop it within minutes. The London Bridge incident was particularly impressive. In the aftermath of this there were flyers handed out to people at train stations with numbers to use for contacting police to report suspicious activity, and documenting the run, hide, tell advice for dealing with terrorism.

These changes to streets aren't massively expensive and can save lives.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

pjohnson

wordofwarning wrote: »

IMO DCC are not too worried about terrorist attacks as all these attacks involving trucks had speed. The congestion in Dublin is so horrific, it will be difficult to gain enough speed to cause serious damage. The traffic crawls anywhere within 10 mins of Henry St/Grafton St

Caused this to pop up in my brain.

https://youtube/bF-T1FB3Yno

loyatemu

5 killed at a bus stop on Wellington Quay: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/five-dead-in-worst-tragedy-in-the-history-of-dublin-bus-26218114.html

That was an accident but anyone could plough into a busy bus stop anywhere in the city - you can't protect people from these types of attacks by putting the odd bollard here and there.

loyatemu

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

There definitely should be bollards on all of the side streets and at the bottom and top of Grafton Street and other pedestrian zones. This isn't a waste of money if it saves peoples lives in the event of a terrorist incident. It isn't just Islamic State that are beginning to use this method.

I was staying in Holland recently in the countryside between Amsterdam and Hilversum and on some bridges over canals they have bollards that are activated by mobile phone to come down. I was stuck at one until a resident helped me out and called the number. Have regular delivery drivers registered on the phone activation system to put them up and down.

The Gardaí are far too complacent about this and other forms of crime in the inner city. Similar measures should be considered for O'Connell Street. Raised edges on pedestrian walkways to stop cars and other vehicles mounting the kerb.

Radical jihadis aren't going away, and the far-right aren't going away. There is always the risk of an incident. There also needs to be a way of rapidly deploying armed officers into a situation to stop it within minutes. The London Bridge incident was particularly impressive. In the aftermath of this there were flyers handed out to people at train stations with numbers to use for contacting police to report suspicious activity, and documenting the run, hide, tell advice for dealing with terrorism.

These changes to streets aren't massively expensive and can change lives.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

what do you think the wannabe terrorist will do if they put these in place - just drive into the bollards anyway and say "d'oh"? They'll go somewhere else where there's no bollards. Vehicles interact with pedestrians on nearly every road in the country.

solodeogloria

loyatemu wrote: »

what do you think the wannabe terrorist will do if they put these in place - just drive into the bollards anyway and say "d'oh"? They'll go somewhere else where there's no bollards.

Good afternoon!

This is the point. Keep people away from the main thoroughfares in the city. Most pedestrian traffic in Dublin is between the top of O'Connell Street and the bottom of Grafton Street. These measures are about damage limitation. Also, when College Green is pedestrianised these changes need to be put in place.

Yes, they can kill people elsewhere on a different road, but the road won't contain the vast majority of pedestrian traffic in the city.

And yes, sure, people could put on a suicide vest and bring firearms, but if this is shut down quickly by an armed anti-terrorist unit it'll be stopped within minutes rather than hours. This is where I have to say the British did an incredible job with Westminster and London Bridge in terms of damage limitation.

Ireland isn't exempt from terrorist threats.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Gatling

Richard Hillman wrote: »

No, we'll wait until after the attack to sort it.

Better than fortifications that aren't required or needed

Walls or bollards won't stop any attack

jamesthepeach

WellThen? wrote: »

A car could ram the whole way down Grafton street, was just in there this morning, i never noticed how completely vulnerable it would be. On a busy day could do some serious amount of damage.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3399176,-6.2606385,2a,75y,329.47h,82.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-kyxAT0SN8SmZaOwnvwGbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I know it's accessible for delivery vans and stuff but would it not be safer to have some bollards that could be removed after the morning deliveries or something. Collapsible poles or something.

Just wondering what people thought really....

A car would never make it the when way down Grafton street. It's too packed. So many people that a car would be stopped by the pile of people in front of it before it got 50 feet.

Harry Palmr

stimpson wrote: »

Whatever you do there will always be a softer target. Your chances of being killed in a terrorist attack are vanishingly small but they make the news and scare people. We have 300 people killed on the roads every year ]but it doesn't put anyone off driving.

Not for years has it been that high - 180 is about the typical in the last decade.

silverharp

loyatemu wrote: »

5 killed at a bus stop on Wellington Quay: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/five-dead-in-worst-tragedy-in-the-history-of-dublin-bus-26218114.html

That was an accident but anyone could plough into a busy bus stop anywhere in the city - you can't protect people from these types of attacks by putting the odd bollard here and there.

you can make an attempt to make sure its not over 100

marcus001

Gatling wrote: »

A waste of time and money ,close one Street off you have to close all Streets in every town and city

I just locked my front door. Damn now I have to go and lock all the doors in my house. :mad::mad::mad:

Has to be the most idiotic post I've read today.

Harry Palmr

Richard Hillman wrote: »

No, we'll wait until after the attack to sort it.

The Marxist Dublin City Council don't want to offend people either, so we'll keep it as it is.

Look if mass murder was the intent, all you need is two or three knife wielding IS boarding the LUAS and attacking between stops one from each end of a carriage

marcus001

marcus001 wrote: »

Has to be the most idiotic post I've read today.

I might have to take this back because there's a lot of stiff competition in this thread.

Gatling wrote: »

A waste of time and money ,close one Street off you have to close all Streets in every town and city

No, you can close off one street and not close off any others if you want to. So obvious I feel stupid even saying it.

But Grafton street and Henry street are basically the only streets in the capital which pose a significant risk. Of course you could always just mount the kerb and hit some pedestrians, but there's a lamppost or bus stop or bin every few feet so you wouldn't get very far. You could drive the whole way down Grafton street and hit nothing but people.

jamesthepeach wrote: »

A car would never make it the when way down Grafton street. It's too packed. So many people that a car would be stopped by the pile of people in front of it before it got 50 feet.

That's pure bollocks from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Have you ever seen someone get hit by a car? It's a 2 tonne projectile. If it's even going 30 km/h it's going to toss you in the air like a rag doll or roll right over you.

Imagine this happening on Grafton street on a packed day where there's barely enough room to walk never mind get out of the way of a car travelling at speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC0OD8vEWLs

wordofwarning wrote: »

IMO DCC are not too worried about terrorist attacks as all these attacks involving trucks had speed. The congestion in Dublin is so horrific, it will be difficult to gain enough speed to cause serious damage. The traffic crawls anywhere within 10 mins of Henry St/Grafton St

Not only is what you're saying not true on several fronts, the Nice attacker slowed down several times and traffic is actually alright between about 10 and 3 on weekdays. It doesn't take much of a run up to get to 50km/h. It's also a very bizarre rationale as to why the council wouldn't be worried about terrorism. Because traffic.

loyatemu wrote: »

what do you think the wannabe terrorist will do if they put these in place - just drive into the bollards anyway and say "d'oh"? They'll go somewhere else where there's no bollards. Vehicles interact with pedestrians on nearly every road in the country.

They'll go somewhere else where there's no bollards and also less people. Far less people. There's no space in Dublin where as many people are exposed as on the two main shopping streets.

marcus001

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Look if mass murder was the intent, all you need is two or three knife wielding IS boarding the LUAS and attacking between stops one from each end of a carriage

You seem to be suggesting that finding 2 other lads who want to commit mass murder with you is easy.

If you're alone and want to maximise casualties and don't know how to make bombs the car attack is the way to go.

Gatling

marcus001 wrote: »

I might have to take this back because there's a lot of stiff competition in this thread.



No, you can close off one street and not close off any others if you want to. So obvious I feel stupid even saying it.

But Grafton street and Henry street are basically the only streets in the capital which pose a significant risk.

I believe your Actually wrong ,

Bollards won't stop a Terrorist attack on any street ,
I seem to remember an incident when someone drove up Henry Street hitting pedestrians years back ,
And yet nobody needed bollards or other defences built to make sure it doesn't happen again ,

solodeogloria

Gatling wrote: »

I believe your Actually wrong ,

Bollards won't stop a Terrorist attack on any street ,
I seem to remember an incident when someone drove up Henry Street hitting pedestrians years back ,
And yet nobody needed bollards or other defences built to make sure it doesn't happen again ,

Good afternoon!

You're missing the point somewhat.

Terrorist attacks are always possible, but putting bollards up on a street limits the potential of a vehicle based attack. Limiting easy accessibility for large vehicles in pedestrianised zones makes sense. This is why it was right for barriers and bollards to be placed on Westminster Bridge and London Bridge. It is about limiting the scope of impact on the busiest thoroughfares in the city. This would definitely save lives in the event of such an incident.

Likewise an effective counter-terrorist reporting system limits the time and scope of a terrorist operation.

The idea that doing something is worse than doing nothing is a fallacy.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Gatling

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Look if mass murder was the intent, all you need is two or three knife wielding IS boarding the LUAS and attacking between stops one from each end of a carriage

Your dead right and going by the Irish mentality of if someone is been attacked /assaulted just stand back and watch ,

One determined person could easily kill 5 -10 or more with a single knife on a luas ,dart ,train , Street or shopping centre ,
And that's before you get to person /s with a rifle or explosives

Sofiztikated

Was this thread not done last week?

K.Flyer

jamesthepeach wrote: »

A car would never make it the when way down Grafton street. It's too packed. So many people that a car would be stopped by the pile of people in front of it before it got 50 feet.

I think those doing it might be happy enough with that result...

I drove past the top of Grafton St on Friday evening around 6.00pm. As I stopped at the pedestrian lights I could see just how easy it would be for a truck to mount the pathway and plough down through the packed pedestrian st. They could then jump out halfway through and disappear up a side street and vanish.
With respect to AGS, unless the ARU were already on the street, there would be very little and un-armed Garda could do to stop the truck and not much if the assailants are armed.
I do hope nothing ever happens, but I think it would be very naive to say it will never happen here, simple precautions like bollards at pedestrian areas would at least reduce that type of risk.

K.Flyer

Gatling wrote: »

Your dead right and going by the Irish mentality of if someone is been attacked /assaulted just stand back and watch , [...]

Or as has been proven already on the streets of Dublin when someone was in need of medical attention, out with their phones....
To record it so as to be the first to post it on TwitFace.

jamesthepeach

marcus001 wrote: »

I might have to take this back because there's a lot of stiff competition in this thread.



No, you can close off one street and not close off any others if you want to. So obvious I feel stupid even saying it.

But Grafton street and Henry street are basically the only streets in the capital which pose a significant risk. Of course you could always just mount the kerb and hit some pedestrians, but there's a lamppost or bus stop or bin every few feet so you wouldn't get very far. You could drive the whole way down Grafton street and hit nothing but people.



That's pure bollocks from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about. Have you ever seen someone get hit by a car? It's a 2 tonne projectile. If it's even going 30 km/h it's going to toss you in the air like a rag doll or roll right over you.

Imagine this happening on Grafton street on a packed day where there's barely enough room to walk never mind get out of the way of a car travelling at speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC0OD8vEWLs





Not only is what you're saying not true on several fronts, the Nice attacker slowed down several times and traffic is actually alright between about 10 and 3 on weekdays. It doesn't take much of a run up to get to 50km/h. It's also a very bizarre rationale as to why the council wouldn't be worried about terrorism. Because traffic.



They'll go somewhere else where there's no bollards and also less people. Far less people. There's no space in Dublin where as many people are exposed as on the two main shopping streets.

I think your sarcasm detector is faulty. Please get it looked at.

marcus001

jamesthepeach wrote: »

I think your sarcasm detector is faulty. Please get it looked at.

To be fair, even if your post was sincere it wouldn't have even been the stupidest one. Says it all really.

jamesthepeach

marcus001 wrote: »

To be fair, even if your post was sincere it wouldn't have even been the stupidest one. Says it all really.

Oh dear. Not only is your sarcasm detector off, so is your humour detector. You should have a rest. Really, you should.
Let people who are expert in the area decide if bollards are the right thing to do or not. Typo g doesn't make us experts, so so it's not going to be us.

Zebra3

WellThen? wrote: »

A car could ram the whole way down Grafton street, was just in there this morning, i never noticed how completely vulnerable it would be. On a busy day could do some serious amount of damage.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3399176,-6.2606385,2a,75y,329.47h,82.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-kyxAT0SN8SmZaOwnvwGbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I know it's accessible for delivery vans and stuff but would it not be safer to have some bollards that could be removed after the morning deliveries or something. Collapsible poles or something.

Just wondering what people thought really....

Someone could fly a drone packed with explosives into Croker.

Why are there no bollards in the sky to stop this happening?

Bloody Marxists running the council, I tell ya!!!

Now that we're all upset over innocent people being killed, when is Obama coming over to visit again? :rolleyes:

marcus001

Zebra3 wrote: »

Someone could fly a drone packed with explosives into Croker.

Why are there no bollards in the sky to stop this happening?

Bloody Marxists running the council, I tell ya!!!

Now that we're all upset over innocent people being killed, when is Obama coming over to visit again? :rolleyes:

Could they?

Where would they get a large enough amount of explosives and where would they get a large enough drone?

It's all well and good making reductio ad absurdum arguments, but we're not dealing with absurd scenarios, we're dealing with a clear series of practically identical attacks and we can minimise the risk to the public for A FEW THOUSAND EURO and still idiots think it's better to do nothing simply because we can't prevent every attack.

jamesthepeach

marcus001 wrote: »

Could they?

Where would they get a large enough amount of explosives and where would they get a large enough drone?

Well that's you earning yourself a place on the FBI watchlist anyway.
How could you even ask such a question? What are you planning?

Gatling

marcus001 wrote: »

Could they?

Where would they get a large enough amount of explosives and where would they get a large enough drone?
.

Buy one or make one and if they know what they are doing the same for explosives.

Simple really

hmmm

The issue I see with Grafton Street is the numbers involved. Hitting a bus stop might kill a couple of people, a truck going down Grafton Street could kill a hundred. Of course there should be bollards, and on other major pedestrian locations. We're talking a handful of locations only - there is obviously no way to protect everywhere.

There's too much complacency - we might not be the target of a major organised attack, but it only takes one lunatic who isn't being monitored. Finland had a similar threat level to us and still got attacked.

Maybe the council could spend less time debating whether a Palestinian flag should be flown and more time debating what is appropriate to try and keep people safe.

marcus001

I wonder if the people against this have ever actually been to Dublin...

Bollards are already everywhere. They have steel bollards all down the length of Grafton street on both sides, just not on the ends. There are steel bollards lining almost every pedestrian walkway in town.

So it's not that if we put them at the end of Grafton we'll have to put them everywhere, we already have them everywhere except the end of Grafton.

jamesthepeach

Rocket launches at the top of every pedestrian street. Any car or truck heading down it gets blown up. Would be better, bollards aren't 100% effective. Rockets would work and make a big noise to warn those further down the street.
Plus you take the truck out with a rocket. Using bollards would just encourage him to go somewhere else. With the rocket he's deaf and the truck weapon is disabled so can't go elsewhere.

jamesthepeach

marcus001 wrote: »

I wonder if the people against this have ever actually been to Dublin...

Bollards are already everywhere. They have steel bollards all down the length of Grafton street on both sides, just not on the ends. There are steel bollards lining almost every pedestrian walkway in town.

So it's not that if we put them at the end of Grafton we'll have to put them everywhere, we already have them everywhere except the end of Grafton.

So now you think the posters here have never been to Dublin. I bet you are wrong. I bet at least 99% of them have been to Dublin.

marcus001

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Rocket launches at the top of every pedestrian street. Any car or truck heading down it gets blown up. Would be better, bollards aren't 100% effective. Rockets would work and make a big noise to warn those further down the street.
Plus you take the truck out with a rocket. Using bollards would just encourage him to go somewhere else. With the rocket he's deaf and the truck weapon is disabled so can't go elsewhere.

A lot of effort for an unfunny attempt at humour.

Harry Palmr

jamesthepeach wrote: »

Rocket launches at the top of every pedestrian street. Any car or truck heading down it gets blown up. Would be better, bollards aren't 100% effective. Rockets would work and make a big noise to warn those further down the street.
Plus you take the truck out with a rocket. Using bollards would just encourage him to go somewhere else. With the rocket he's deaf and the truck weapon is disabled so can't go elsewhere.

I like this plan, if the rocket misses and hits a Pret A Manger full of hipsters all the better.

jamesthepeach

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I like this plan, if the rocket misses and hits a Pret A Manger full of hipsters all the better.

Double impact eh

jamesthepeach

marcus001 wrote: »

A lot of effort for an unfunny attempt at humour.

I know. It's wasted on you. But we won't hold it against you. Youre busy, you have problems to solve. Mainly bollard problems, but problems nontheless.

Nermal

The coast of North Africa is the right place for the bollards, not Grafton St...

marcus001

jamesthepeach wrote: »

I know. It's wasted on you. But we won't hold it against you. Youre busy, you have problems to solve. Mainly bollard problems, but problems nontheless.

You're so aloof and cool :cool:

jamesthepeach

marcus001 wrote: »

You're so aloof and cool :cool:

Get over it will you. Pleeeeeze.
You are taking all this rather personally. Don't.

ToddyDoody

I think we need something like The Bear Patrol from The Simpsons.

Zebra3

Nermal wrote: »

The coast of North Africa is the right place for the bollards, not Grafton St...

Please do explain what bollards at the North African coast will do?

Dravokivich

wordofwarning wrote: »

IMO DCC are not too worried about terrorist attacks as all these attacks involving trucks had speed. The congestion in Dublin is so horrific, it will be difficult to gain enough speed to cause serious damage. The traffic crawls anywhere within 10 mins of Henry St/Grafton St

You've forgotten about the issue at wood quay with dunlin bus?

Samaris

I wish people would busy themselves sending letters to the city councils about these issues instead of giving people notions. I really don't see the point of explaining in detail the best way and time to go about killing people in Dublin.

Grayson

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Was this thread not done last week?

It was. But apparently those involved didn't get the respect and praise they deserved so they're giving it a second stab.

ToddyDoody

Samaris wrote: »

I wish people would busy themselves sending letters to the city councils about these issues instead of giving people notions. I really don't see the point of explaining in detail the best way and time to go about killing people in Dublin.

Its obvious anyway - a drone attack.