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Self driving buses, trains, trucks etc

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    Did you read the report? Human thinking averted a more deadly outcome.

    AI will never better human reactions as has been proven by many aircraft accidents. There is one where the pilot actually had to fly the plane after the AI failed rather than just "pilot" it.

    You sound like a luddite


  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Rave.ef


    As smart and all as these people are they haven't taught this idea through. Other drivers on this will agree with me. I can't see a driverless truck backing into most of the loading bays and ramps around the country. a lot of these have to be backed into from the road ways and i can't see some computerised machine not getting stuck mid minuver when some di*k can't wait the 30 seconds for the truck to get where it needs to go and causing a road block. As far as it just going from a to b and then a driver taking over it won't be feasible trucks and buses are extremely expensive pieces of machinery as they are so imagine the price of these when they come on the market first and still having to pay a driver. The technology might be close to becoming realistic but the practically not so much yet.


  • Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭crossmolinalad


    Not gonna work in busy cities
    What they want is that a self driving vehicle always stops for humans and if a human knows that for sure the vehicle will never drive again
    People on bikes or foot would do what the like knowing nothing happens when I go to the other side of the road or ride on the middle of the road


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,861 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    You seem to be missing the blindingly massive point that ALL car crashes are due to human error.....
    There are no such thing as accidents. They should be called negligents.

    of course There are such thing as accidents. what a complete load of nonsense. if there weren't any such thing then we wouldn't have legislation and all else set up to take account of accidents.
    You sound like a luddite

    no he doesn't. he's just giving the actual reality.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,805 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    of course There are such thing as accidents. what a complete load of nonsense. if there weren't any such thing then we wouldn't have legislation and all else set up to take account of accidents.
    Except that they're not 'accidents' - they are crashes or collisions. That's what Gardai and RSA will call them now - now that they've realised that the terminology 'accident' is specifically designed to let drivers off the hook for dangerous driving.

    http://www.crashnotaccident.com/


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    AI will never better human reactions as has been proven by many aircraft accidents. There is one where the pilot actually had to fly the plane after the AI failed rather than just "pilot" it.
    don't judge a concept by its current execution, nor blame the AI in a situation where the AI was designed not to be the sole pilot of the plane.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Rave.ef wrote: »
    I can't see a driverless truck backing into most of the loading bays and ramps around the country.
    yet fifteen years ago, if you were to tell someone that by 2015 you could buy cars which would parallel park themselves, they'd have been amazed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,861 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Except that they're not 'accidents' - they are crashes or collisions. That's what Gardai and RSA will call them now - now that they've realised that the terminology 'accident' is specifically designed to let drivers off the hook for dangerous driving.

    http://www.crashnotaccident.com/

    doesn't matter, there are such things as accidents.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Not gonna work in busy cities
    What they want is that a self driving vehicle always stops for humans and if a human knows that for sure the vehicle will never drive again
    People on bikes or foot would do what the like knowing nothing happens when I go to the other side of the road or ride on the middle of the road

    You cannae break the laws of physics. If a car is traveling fast enough that it can't brake when you wander into the road then you're going to get hit.

    People and bikes already do what they like on the roads most of the time and can cause havok. What's to stop me walking out into traffic on Pearse St for example? Im fairly sure all the cars would brake for me. Probably get a few honks and a few curses thrown my way, but they'd still stop. I could sit in the road if I wanted and I'm sure no one would physically try to move me. More likely to call the gardai

    The same argument was trotted out against automating the Luas "sure someone could sit on or put an obstacle on the track and the tram would stop indefinitely". But I could do the same thing now and stop the tram. No way is the driver gonna leave his cushy cab and challenge some guy blocking the luas. He'd call for backup or the gardai to fix the problem.

    An autonomous car would do the same thing. Maybe push a notification to a call center for a human to make the judgment call


  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Rave.ef


    Rave.ef wrote: »
    I can't see a driverless truck backing into most of the loading bays and ramps around the country.
    yet fifteen years ago, if you were to tell someone that by 2015 you could buy cars which would parallel park themselves, they'd have been amazed.

    I see you're point but slight difference in a Ford focus and a 6×2 tractor unit and 45ft trailer.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you are predicting that computers won't ever be able to park a truck into a loading bay? remember, we're not talking about *current* technology.

    if (and when) it happens, it may happen with cues in the loading bay for the trucks - maybe like QR codes indicating the loading point, etc.
    it doesn't strike me as a difficult problem to fix, particularly compared with a lot of other issues automonous trucks would face. the actual mathematics of parking a truck aren't that much harder than with a car, i'd hazard.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Why would parking a truck be any different to parking a car to a computer?

    If they can get a spaceship to land on a boat in the Atlantic then they can get a truck to park itself in a loading bay.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,311 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    eeguy wrote: »
    Why would parking a truck be any different to parking a car to a computer?

    If they can get a spaceship to land on a boat in the Atlantic then they can get a truck to park itself in a loading bay.
    Not to mention the computer would have the benefit of extra cameras, radar, etc and will be able to predict the entire maneuver to the centimeter.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,805 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    doesn't matter, there are such things as accidents.

    It really does matter. There are very, very few road deaths that are now down to poor driving - either speeding, using the phone, drink driving, or just failure to drive to the conditions (ice or extreme wind or whatever).


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub




    no he doesn't. he's just giving the actual reality.

    Claiming AI will never and humans will always be better is denying the reality of the world we live in where AI is constantly improving.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,224 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    an article touching on one part of research i'm not hearing much about; the word 'autonomous' is usually used for self-driving cars, which implies their driving aids are self-contained, but is there much research being done into cars which talk to each other? surely there could be some robust, low-range (e.g. 500m) signal broadcast by cars - a bit like an IFF signal in airplanes - announcing location, direction, speed, etc.
    would not have to be high bandwidth stuff - plus it could also assist with the issue of cars dealing with cyclists - e.g. if i had a GPS unit on my bike that would warn a car (or HGV) that i was 30m behind, it could have benefits here too.

    Yes all these self driving cars communicating with one another is a major part of self driving systems.

    All Tesla's come with 4G built in and constantly update Tesla about road conditions, etc. So for instance if a new pot hole appears on the road, the first car that passes over it tells all the other Teslas before they even leave the garage!

    Great idea about having your own unit on a bicycle. It could be as simple as an app on your phone, letting all cars know of your position, etc.
    My guess is that the bus companies believe there would be too much of an issue with revenue protection - there are so many scummers here who would jump in without paying if there was a door not under the driver's nose. How's a driverless bus going get over that?

    How does it work on Luas? Because from a revenue protection perspective Luas is fundamentally a self driving vehicle. Sure there is a driver, but he has zero interaction with the passengers, locked behind a screen, so we fundamentally already have exactly this.

    It is policed by roving revenue inspectors, who issue fines.

    And it is nothing new, 3 to 4 door buses with zero driver interaction are pretty much the norm across most EU countries for the past 50 years. It is a well solved problem already.
    How will it cope with 89 year old Bridie who simply won't put her FTP on the reader - she's never had to before and she's just not going to start now. And the tourist from Spain who wants to know how to get to "Dunes es tores" (pronounced Dunnes Stores by most of ye) - yes she has Google maps, but map reading is HARD work for some.

    How does the 89 year old handle Luas today? Because again, it is exactly the same, zero driver interaction. Same for the tourists. Somehow they all get by.

    As an aside, self driving vehicles should be a fantastic revolution for the elderly and disabled. A major problem we have in rural Ireland is the when an elderly person loses their license they can become very insulated due to poor public transport. You should watch the recent RTE documentary on this very sad subject. Self driving cars will allow elderly and disabled people a level of independent mobility that they can currently only dream of and personally this is one of the reasons I can't wait for self driving cars.
    They'll all be replaced with driverless pool cars, you say? How many seats will be in each one - enough for Mam, Dad and the four kids? Or will the kids be expected to travel separately - how old do you have to be to travel alone? What if the kids car gets there before the parent one - will it hold them inside until the parents arrive?

    You are making this sound far more difficult then it is. We already do this with Taxi's and GoCar.

    With Taxi's in myaxi/uber, you can opt to order a regular taxi, a wheelchair accessible one or a 7/8 seater depending on your needs.

    With GoCar, you can opt for different car sizes, city car, mid sized car, SUV or even a van (and also EV options now), depending on your needs, just like any rental company.

    It will be the same with these car sharing services. These companies will have massive fleets of vehicles of different sizes. I suspect the majority will be one/two seaters as in reality that is what most people are really driving, but they will also have 5 seaters, 7/8 seaters, vans, etc. if you need it.

    Really non of this should be surprising, just go to any car rental place and see the variety of different types of vehicles available.
    Will they have car seats and booster cushions that magically adapt to the child's age?

    Bring your own car seat! I do this now. I've a baby, but don't own a car. But we do have a fantastic lightweight car seat that we stick in when using taxis or firends/relatives cars. Really not difficult at all.
    Ramps that automatically roll out to cater for grandad in his wheelchair?

    Of course, order a disabled compatible car, just like you can order a disabled taxi today.

    BTW as I mentioned above, self driving cars will be an absolute revolution for the elderly and disabled.

    What happens when the passenger starts having a seizure when the car is half-way from Dublin to Galway - if the car's not smart enough to detect that, pull over and call an ambulance, then we have a major reduction in service.

    Huh!! Well it would be a damn sight better then someone losing control of the vehicle due to a seizure and crashing into other people at 120km/h.

    Rumour has it that the car that hit 6 pedestrians last week in Dublin may have been a heart attack. This is actually a major benefit of self driving cars.

    Of course if a person starts feeling unwell, they can report it if they can and the car can immediately start driving them to the nearest hospital, so another benefit.
    What do you do if your pool car arrives, complete with used needles or condoms that the last passenger left in it?

    What do you do if a taxi turns up looking like that?

    Of course you report it, the service sends another car, the first car returns to depot for cleaning and they check the video logs of the previous user and then ban them from ever using the service again.

    BTW they are planning to include smell sensors in vehicles like this, that can detect solid vehicles so that they are immediately sent for cleaning, without the next customer ever seeing it.

    How many rural residents will be prepared to wait the extra 20 minutes that a pool car will take to get to their house at times when there's usually low demand - eg at 2am when someone's waters have broken earlier than expected and they'd like to get to the hospital before giving birth, please!

    What happens now for people who don't own cars? Plenty of pregnant ladies have been brought to hospital by taxi, just ask any driver.

    You can always call for an ambulance if needed, just like people do today.

    BTW you seem to be thinking that you can't own a self driving car! Of course you will still be able to buy a self driving car and have 100% use of it just as you can today for an ordinary car. In really rural areas, with low population density, then it probably make more sense for people to own their own car, that happens to drive itself, then use the on-demand type services, they are more likely to be a more urban thing.

    In the above scenario you could even temporarily rent a self driving car to sit outside your house for your exclusive use for the few weeks before birth, if it was something you were concerned about.
    Rave.ef wrote: »
    As far as it just going from a to b and then a driver taking over it won't be feasible trucks and buses are extremely expensive pieces of machinery as they are so imagine the price of these when they come on the market first and still having to pay a driver.

    The point would be imagine you had a fleet of 30 trucks, well now rather then needing 30 drivers, you only need 2 or 3 drivers in an office to remotely connect into the trucks to handle the difficult bits.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    bk wrote: »
    Great idea about having your own unit on a bicycle. It could be as simple as an app on your phone, letting all cars know of your position, etc.
    it could be similar to bluetooth, but longer range - as mentioned; low bandwidth would be fine - once every quarter of a second, say, it could ping out GPS co-ordinates, vehicle type, speed and direction - to be picked up by all other nearby vehicles. given the known issues with bikes, HGVs, and blind spots, this could be a simple but effective warning system; or even at night, when approaching a junction and a car is approaching from 90 degrees so the lights aren't mutually visible or effective...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    bk wrote: »
    Yes all these self driving cars communicating with one another is a major part of self driving systems.

    Fantastic post.
    People tend to focus in on the negatives and the "oh well what ifs..." without realiseing that most have already been solved and the rest are usually quite easy to solve.

    There's a HUGE overestimation of how difficult it is to drive a car. If nearly every person in the world can drive one after about 10 hours of instruction, then how difficult can it be to have a supercomputer work it out.

    I can't wait until Tesla do their coast to coast autonomous run later this year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 25,518 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    doesn't matter, there are such things as accidents.

    A few. Eg mechanical failure earlier than would have been expected.

    Most are incidents caused by lack of care or attention though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    A few. Eg mechanical failure earlier than would have been expected.

    Most are incidents caused by lack of care or attention though.

    Mechanical failure is nearly always due to improper car maintenance and hardly ever due to a manufacturing fault. Worn tyres and worn brakes can be lethal.


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,224 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    it could be similar to bluetooth, but longer range - as mentioned; low bandwidth would be fine - once every quarter of a second, say, it could ping out GPS co-ordinates, vehicle type, speed and direction - to be picked up by all other nearby vehicles. given the known issues with bikes, HGVs, and blind spots, this could be a simple but effective warning system; or even at night, when approaching a junction and a car is approaching from 90 degrees so the lights aren't mutually visible or effective...

    Yep, there absolutely are folks working on exactly this.

    I hadn't thought of your bicycle example, which is a great idea. But the examples I had heard of were not also car to car, but also car to road side infrastructure, for instance traffic lights, speed signs, etc.

    They can help give a more precise location via triangulation then just GPS (which can be blocked by tall buildings, trees, tunnels, etc.).

    Also another example I heard of is road side signs telling cars of approaching road works.

    Check out wireless mesh networks for cars.

    BTW some of this is likely to come to being even before we get full self driving. Systems like this can be used to tell a driver when s/he is going over the speed limit or warn of upcoming construction work or simply auto-brake if the two cars in front of you crash.


  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Rave.ef


    TheChizler wrote: »
    eeguy wrote: »
    Why would parking a truck be any different to parking a car to a computer?

    If they can get a spaceship to land on a boat in the Atlantic then they can get a truck to park itself in a loading bay.
    Not to mention the computer would have the benefit of extra cameras, radar, etc and will be able to predict the entire maneuver to the centimeter.

    I have no doubt how a computer can manage all this my point was on the other road users. I know all the cameras and gadgets will pick up and distance and objects. What I was getting at is the person in they're car who won't wait the few seconds decides they can squeeze in front and can't (idiots do this on a daily basis) then the messages are all jumbled up in the computer and all of a sudden there's traffic mayhem.
    Also I can see the interest in the idea of this technology but realisticly if this is a reality, in this little country alone there is roughly 70,000 of us that will be out of work. That's not something to be excited about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Rave.ef


    bk wrote: »
    it could be similar to bluetooth, but longer range - as mentioned; low bandwidth would be fine - once every quarter of a second, say, it could ping out GPS co-ordinates, vehicle type, speed and direction - to be picked up by all other nearby vehicles. given the known issues with bikes, HGVs, and blind spots, this could be a simple but effective warning system; or even at night, when approaching a junction and a car is approaching from 90 degrees so the lights aren't mutually visible or effective...

    Yep, there absolutely are folks working on exactly this.

    I hadn't thought of your bicycle example, which is a great idea. But the examples I had heard of were not also car to car, but also car to road side infrastructure, for instance traffic lights, speed signs, etc.

    They can help give a more precise location via triangulation then just GPS (which can be blocked by tall buildings, trees, tunnels, etc.).

    Also another example I heard of is road side signs telling cars of approaching road works.

    Check out wireless mesh networks for cars.

    BTW some of this is likely to come to being even before we get full self driving. Systems like this can be used to tell a driver when s/he is going over the speed limit or warn of upcoming construction work or simply auto-brake if the two cars in front of you crash.

    Volvo trucks already have something similar. A very good adaptive cruise controal and a braking and warning system that's is amazing. look it up on you tube it's very impressive.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Rave.ef wrote: »
    I have no doubt how a computer can manage all this my point was on the other road users. I know all the cameras and gadgets will pick up and distance and objects. What I was getting at is the person in they're car who won't wait the few seconds decides they can squeeze in front and can't (idiots do this on a daily basis) then the messages are all jumbled up in the computer and all of a sudden there's traffic mayhem.
    Also I can see the interest in the idea of this technology but realisticly if this is a reality, in this little country alone there is roughly 70,000 of us that will be out of work. That's not something to be excited about.

    The Spinning Jenny will be the death of us all!


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Rave.ef wrote: »
    then the messages are all jumbled up in the computer and all of a sudden there's traffic mayhem.
    i think computers are a little better than people when dealing with jumbled up info. this is not where computers are at a disadvantage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭Rave.ef


    might as well go on the dole now and start walking up and down the town's and embrace the future


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,224 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Rave.ef wrote: »
    Volvo trucks already have something similar. A very good adaptive cruise controal and a braking and warning system that's is amazing. look it up on you tube it's very impressive.

    Auto-braking systems is becoming pretty standard in all new cars. It is mandated for all new cars sold in the US from 2022. However most of the big manufacturers over there have already doing it far in advance. It is the new most have safety feature like ABS/airbags were previously.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,875 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    The Spinning Jenny will be the death of us all!
    yes, people found alternative employment after technological disruption in the past, but trite statements like the above do nothing to address the fact that a) it was not necessarily pleasant for all involved; b) significant societal changes often followed, not all of which were positive; and c) assuming autonomous vehicles do make it onto our roads, it may happen faster than industrial revolution changes did.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,478 ✭✭✭eeguy


    Rave.ef wrote: »
    might as well go on the dole now and start walking up and down the town's and embrace the future

    I'd be looking at employment alternatives if I was involved in professional driving.
    In 10 or 15 years things could look very bleak.

    Once one haulier gets involved in automation and can lower their costs, then everyone else will need to adapt or they'll lose business.

    Remember Kodak? Tens of thousands were layed off at the start of this decade, because they missed the rapid development of digital technology. I'll guarantee that IF Level 4 automation comes out in the next decade, you'll see the same thing happen as traditional professional driving services struggle to adapt to lower cost competition.

    Automation is only a computer, a few cameras and sensors, plus a piece of software, probably a fraction of the cost of an actual car.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    They should trial this in India and let us know how they get on


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