The biggest stumbling block for EV uptake

BoatMad

Falcon L wrote: »

But we can't plan for just your particular scenario, can we? Many people will never be able to charge at home. Think apartment dwellers, or houses with on-street parking, or rented accommodation where the owner won't allow a charger to be fitted. There will be a group who can not charge at home. I think we need to accept that.

I mentioned tourists earlier. They will rely on charging as they travel, and I wouldn't count on being able to charge at a B&B, or even a hotel. Many hotels have 1 charge point. What happens when 2 or 3 EV owners want to stay there? Not to mention high milers.

Whatever plan might emerge for charging away from home, it has to cover everyone. We need to move away from the hobbyist/early adopter and move towards mass adoption, or it won't happen.

Tourists with EVs , will by and large be of the higher range EV type. Hence all they require is access to relatively sparse but multiple unit high powered DC chargers , in a mode similar to Teslas charge parks

The current method of scattering FCPs around in single units is a disaster

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

Just be aware that most of Continental Europe , where 3-phase is supplied , its at very low power per phase ( 6kw , 9 Kw in france for example ) , simply saying 3-phase and extrapolating that to mean " high power " is actually incorrect. Even in Germany , 3 phase of more then 36kw in domestic situations is not common

France for example has actually reverted to high power single phase in new installations

Ireland and the UK actually provide largely very similar max power facilities in domestic situations to their continental counterparts who are using 3-phase


3-phase further complicates EV charging as a domestic 3-phase supply is very rarely balanced across 3 phases, whereas 3-phase EVSE are inherently drawing identical energy from the supply, so often the presence of a higher power unbalanced phase in a 3-phase situation can lead to a situation where max 3 phase drawdown across all phases is limited.

I've seen 7kW and 11kW domestic supply in Germany, I have family over there. I don't know about you but 7kW and 11kW is pretty high to charge a car, possible to get 80-100kWh overnight on night rate.

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

I've seen 7kW and 11kW domestic supply in Germany, I have family over there. I don't know about you but 7kW and 11kW is pretty high to charge a car, possible to get 80-100kWh overnight on night rate.

just be aware standard domestic here can do about 18 kw, and higher single phase installations are possible

7kw is no problem in domestic situations in ireland. My EVSE does that every night

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

just be aware standard domestic here can do about 18 kw, and higher single phase installations are possible

7kw is no problem in domestic situations in ireland. My EVSE does that every night

Yes but it is my (somewhat primitive) understanding that single phase 7kW is a lot more problematic for the local grid than 3 phase (especially if 4 or 5 houses in a row attempt to charge at 7kW)

BoatMad

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes but it is my (somewhat primitive) understanding that single phase 7kW is a lot more problematic for the local grid than 3 phase (especially if 4 or 5 houses in a row attempt to charge at 7kW)

the main reason that continental Europe adopted domestic 3 phase, was the in effect the balancing of the phases is left to the domestic installer, whereas in a single phase land , that actions is on the hands of the MV grid provider

in that regards, other then requiring to run 3-phase motors, high power single phase is easier to mange for the domestic consumer then the equivalent power rated 3 - phase

in the case of EVSEs., it doesnt matter if the supply is three phase or single phase, as the issue is the overall capacity of the local MV distribution to handle the demand . IN that regards many European countries with 3-phase domestics have an equal or even greater issue with EV charging at home

I have 3 phase running right over the garden, it would be a matter of installing a transformer on the pole and running the cables to the house, I'd say that would cost.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd say that would cost.

yep

Falcon L

Deleted User wrote: »

I have 3 phase running right over the garden, it would be a matter of installing a transformer on the pole and running the cables to the house, I'd say that would cost.

No problem. A couple of pieces of bent wire and a good throwing arm. No charge for installation or electricity.

billy few mates

There should be some sort of a scheme where people with EVs and home chargers sign up to allow other EV owners to grab a quick charge if they're in the area and in return you would also have access to a network of home chargers if stuck for a charge somewhere.
My town has three public chargers and very few EVs that I'm aware of but one of these chargers seems to be permanently occupied by the same Nissan Leaf, I think the owner leaves it on charge to avail of the free parking while he gets the bus to town for the day.

Gumbo

billy few mates wrote: »

There should be some sort of a scheme where people with EVs and home chargers sign up to allow other EV owners to grab a quick charge if they're in the area and in return you would also have access to a network of home chargers if stuck for a charge somewhere.
My town has three public chargers and very few EVs that I'm aware of but one of these chargers seems to be permanently occupied by the same Nissan Leaf, I think the owner leaves it on charge to avail of the free parking while he gets the bus to town for the day.

There's an app that already allows this. You sign up and you state whether you have a home charge point or even simply an outdoor socket that another user can use their granny cable on.

Not very well know at present though. Also many many peopl are unaware of the granny cable and the fact that all you need is a 3 pin socket. The guy in charge of our work charging stations wasn't even aware until I said to him that if here was no money for more chargers, put in a few external sockets.

KCross

billy few mates wrote: »

There should be some sort of a scheme where people with EVs and home chargers sign up to allow other EV owners to grab a quick charge if they're in the area and in return you would also have access to a network of home chargers if stuck for a charge somewhere.

Already exists.... www.plugshare.com

billy few mates

KCross wrote: »

Already exists.... www.plugshare.com

There goes my Dragons Den business proposal...

billy few mates

billy few mates wrote: »

My town has three public chargers and very few EVs that I'm aware of but one of these chargers seems to be permanently occupied by the same Nissan Leaf, I think the owner leaves it on charge to avail of the free parking while he gets the bus to town for the day.

Out of interest, what happens if you turn up at a charger and someone is hogging it like this? Do you have to sit around all day in the hope that they'll return soon or is there anything that can be done to get access to the charger?

If the car isn't charging and there is room to park then plug them out.

If you plug out while charging and the person sees you then, you risk getting injured.....

jeremy_g

Deleted User wrote: »

If the car isn't charging and there is room to park then plug them out.

If you plug out while charging and the person sees you then, you risk getting injured.....

question: isn't the plug locked while charging so you can't unplug them?

billy few mates

Deleted User wrote: »

If the car isn't charging and there is room to park then plug them out.

If you plug out while charging and the person sees you then, you risk getting injured.....

jeremy_g wrote: »

question: isn't the plug locked while charging so you can't unplug them?

Joking aside, what are the options if you find yourself in need of a recharge and the charger is occupied? You don't know if the person is returning in five minutes or five hours but until they do you're stuck.
As I mentioned earlier, one of the three public chargers in my locality appears to have been commandeered by one particular Nissan Leaf. It's in a pay and display car park right beside the bus stop that a lot of commuters use for the bus into the city. It's free parking for cars on charge, there is no way a Nissan Leaf would need to be plugged in for eight hours a day five days a week!
It may not be a problem now but it certainly would be if there were many more EVs on the road.

Gumbo

billy few mates wrote: »

Joking aside, what are the options if you find yourself in need of a recharge and the charger is occupied? You don't know if the person is returning in five minutes or five hours but until they do you're stuck.
As I mentioned earlier, one of the three public chargers in my locality appears to have been commandeered by one particular Nissan Leaf. It's in a pay and display car park right beside the bus stop that a lot of commuters use for the bus into the city. It's free parking for cars on charge, there is no way a Nissan Leaf would need to be plugged in for eight hours a day five days a week!
It may not be a problem now but it certainly would be if there were many more EVs on the road.

If it's a slow charger then it trickle charges the car. They are called SCP's and designed as destination chargers. So you park up and plug in all day or whatever is required.

No EV owner would be planning to use one of these during the course of the day unless you could be plugged in for a couple of hours.

The fast chargers (FCP's) are different, so you only need 20-30 mins on them.

I certainly wasn't joking when I said you rush injury if you plug someone out while they are charging , if someone comes back and you're plugging them out it could get very nasty indeed.

With 40kWh batteries already in the Renault Zoe then they actually might need a good bit more than30 mins.

BoatMad

kceire wrote: »

If it's a slow charger then it trickle charges the car. They are called SCP's and designed as destination chargers. So you park up and plug in all day or whatever is required.

No EV owner would be planning to use one of these during the course of the day unless you could be plugged in for a couple of hours.

The fast chargers (FCP's) are different, so you only need 20-30 mins on them.

which is why "public" SCP type charging is completely unscalable and has no future

BoatMad

billy few mates wrote: »

Joking aside, what are the options if you find yourself in need of a recharge and the charger is occupied? You don't know if the person is returning in five minutes or five hours but until they do you're stuck.
As I mentioned earlier, one of the three public chargers in my locality appears to have been commandeered by one particular Nissan Leaf. It's in a pay and display car park right beside the bus stop that a lot of commuters use for the bus into the city. It's free parking for cars on charge, there is no way a Nissan Leaf would need to be plugged in for eight hours a day five days a week!
It may not be a problem now but it certainly would be if there were many more EVs on the road.

The answer is you can do nothing

SCP charging is a stop gap solution, that is utterly unscalable . its doomed

lol FCP's will be SCP's soon enough as 40+ Kwh batteries appear.

Well I for one would not like not to have AC charging for when I go the distance that an hour or two on AC means no waiting around at a DC charger.

As I said , no reason they can't install 20 Kw DC chargers like they are in Germany though they may only be CCS it's a start,

I would not like to be forced into using DC points all the time and having to wait around, ridiculous !

BoatMad

I would not like to be forced into using DC points all the time and having to wait around, ridiculous !

err, you only what cause there isn't enough , your logic is equally applicable to SCPs , one they are full too !

No BoatMad, If the DC charger is available to use then I still have to wait 30 odd mins when it will be fully charged or good enough to get home after I go shopping using an AC point, I simply do not want to wait around for DC charging if I don't have to and having the 6.6 Kw charger in the Leaf means on many occasions I do not have to use and wait at DC.

The only times AC is a let down are when the ESB have not upgraded the many points still around the country that are 2.5-3 Kw Max and not the 22 Kw they show up as on the map....

Now give me a SCP 20 Kw DC point and that means I can go much further , plug in and come back 1-2 hrs later and be able to drive up to 250+ kms again without having to wait around at a DC "fast charger".

Not everyone will require charging as fast as possible all the time, yes it will be great to have the option when you need to but it's equally great to have the car charged when you get back to it after an hour or two shopping or whatever.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

No BoatMad, If the DC charger is available to use then I still have to wait 30 odd mins when it will be fully charged or good enough to get home after I go shopping using an AC point, I simply do not want to wait around for DC charging if I don't have to and having the 6.6 Kw charger in the Leaf means on many occasions I do not have to use and wait at DC.

The only times AC is a let down are when the ESB have not upgraded the many points still around the country that are 2.5-3 Kw Max and not the 22 Kw they show up as on the map....

Now give me a SCP 20 Kw DC point and that means I can go much further , plug in and come back 1-2 hrs later and be able to drive up to 250+ kms again without having to wait around at a DC "fast charger".

Not everyone will require charging as fast as possible all the time, yes it will be great to have the option when you need to but it's equally great to have the car charged when you get back to it after an hour or two shopping or whatever.

slow speed , i.e. relatively long times or > 1 hour public charging is simply a completely unscalable process. Once a SCP style charger ( AC or DC it doesnt really matter) is occupied , it is for all extents and purposes non existent for the next EV to arrive.

SO unless you think car parks are going to full of 22KW chargers, the whole idea of tying up a facility for hours is just nonsense, It only works when there are few EVs around, the whole concept falls apart as EV numbers build

public quick charging is the only scalable process , because the resource is freed up in minutes rather then hours

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

slow speed , i.e. relatively long times or > 1 hour public charging is simply a completely unscalable process. Once a SCP style charger ( AC or DC it doesnt really matter) is occupied , it is for all extents and purposes non existent for the next EV to arrive.

SO unless you think car parks are going to full of 22KW chargers, the whole idea of tying up a facility for hours is just nonsense, It only works when there are few EVs around, the whole concept falls apart as EV numbers build

public quick charging is the only scalable process , because the resource is freed up in minutes rather then hours

I am somewhat between your argument and MadLad's
I use AC charging a lot, if it's somewhere I am going to be parked anyway. In 2 hours I can take on 55-60%, and thats usually enough to skip an FCP on the way home.

However, my view is, in the future all charging will be pretty much exclusively on DC. So our network is not scalable. The idea of carrying an onboard charger is redundant. Shopping centers etc should ideally have walls of 22kW DC chargers. This is scalable. Once we settle on one DC standard (probably CCS) then I suggest that this is what happens.

However - at the moment, for the market and use base we have right now - AC is a great support in providing incidental charging when the car is parked anyway.

BoatMad

However - at the moment, for the market and use base we have right now - AC is a great support in providing incidental charging when the car is parked anyway.

no argument with that , however if you take a look at DUBlin, finding a free SCP is quite difficult , it only takes a small increase in EVs to completely max out the SCP network in the capital

Shopping centers etc should ideally have walls of 22kW DC chargers

I actually fail to see the " shopping centre " argument at all. Most people shop within a reasonable distance of their home, they dont as a rule travel across the country to do so

SO with a reasonable range EV and home charging , why would anyone actually need to charge in their local shopping centre !??

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

no argument with that , however if you take a look at DUBlin, finding a free SCP is quite difficult , it only takes a small increase in EVs to completely max out the SCP network in the capital

This is why I don't bother trying to charge in DCC at all. If I have to go to the city centre I normall park in a high rise and charge at templeville or glasnevin after.

BoatMad wrote: »

I actually fail to see the " shopping centre " argument at all. Most people shop within a reasonable distance of their home, they dont as a rule travel across the country to do so

SO with a reasonable range EV and home charging , why would anyone actually need to charge in their local shopping centre !??

It's the same argument as free WiFi, you don't *need* it but it's a value added purchase. Come for the wifi stay and purchase coffee/food, if you will.

We're not all from the GDA with ubiquitous facilities and charging at home. Some of us live miles from anywhere and need a charger to get home. Like myself for instance, if I go to Kildare Village, Dundrum, Blanch/liffey Valley or Drogheda (the main shopping centres near me) I will need to charge to get home. Why not make that at the starbucks I go to for a coffee, instead of wasting 30 minutes at a predetermined location I don't want to go to on the way home!

BoatMad

We're not all from the GDA with ubiquitous facilities and charging at home. Some of us live miles from anywhere and need a charger to get home. Like myself for instance, if I go to Kildare Village, Dundrum, Blanch/liffey Valley or Drogheda (the main shopping centres near me) I will need to charge to get home. Why not make that at the starbucks I go to for a coffee, instead of wasting 30 minutes at a predetermined location I don't want to go to on the way home!

most people have their daily /weekly shopping within 20-30 minutes of their home at the very worst

I live in rural wexford, but I have three towns within 20 minutes of me , why would I need to charge when I have home charging and home charging is likely to be much cheaper then any SCP style charger

BoatMad

30 minutes at a predetermined location I don't want to go to on the way home!

in most BEVs today 30 mins at an FCP will give you over 100km, (and for many 200 km) you do all your shopping by driving 200Km away !!!!!

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

most people have their daily /weekly shopping within 20-30 minutes of their home at the very worst

I live in rural wexford, but I have three towns within 20 minutes of me , why would I need to charge when I have home charging and home charging is likely to be much cheaper then any SCP style charger

Perhaps - thinking outside the box - you've just driven to and from work, and realised that you dont have enough charge to make it back after driving into town for shopping and you must stop on the way home.

The SCP fixes that.

But - as I said above - generally it's not a "need" like an FCP is, it's a niceto have, like a free wifi