Mother of six shot dead. Why no outrage?

marcus001

eviltwin wrote: »

We were still plunged into national mourning over it. Terrible tragedy but complete overkill and wouldn't have happened only for the background of the victims.

More likely it it happened because there were thousands of J1s in america at the time and every Irish mammy was shocked to their core by it.

humberklog

The Omen II wrote: »

A decade ago scenes like this would of brought protesters to the streets.
http://www.thejournal.ie/gardai-ballymun-3553558-Aug2017/

Donna Cleary and Baiba Saulite were both innocent women killed in 2006. Neither murder brought protesters onto the streets.

ligerdub

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

If they were up to their necks in criminality I doubt many would be that bothered, I know I wouldn't anyway but the man who was shot was innocent, just in the wrong place at the wrong time and while she was related to a known criminal there is no evidence that she was involved herself in any criminal activity.

Yes it made the news but it's naive to think that a persons backround doesn't influence the amount of coverage it gets, VG died 21 years ago and it's still fresh in people's minds because it makes the news from time to time, this man who was shot will be forgotten about in a years time because nobody will mention it in the media.

In the same week that Katie French overdosed the same thing happened to 2 other fellas, their deaths barely even got a mention.

The only reason her death made the news was because people knew her.

Admittedly had she been an unknown it MIGHT have hit the papers, but by no means would it have been any more than just one of many stories, like the deaths of the two other people you mentioned.

judeboy101

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What is the difference between that accident and the two shot dead in Ballymun?

Oh yeah - they were from Ballymun.

"Two shot dead in Ballsbridge in broad daylight" - front page news.

Choice is the difference. Those kids in America didn't know that standing on a balcony might kill them. Those people in ballymun made a choice to associate with known targets. Choice is the difference. If i find out in the morning my next door neighbour is a kinahan, and i choose to stay, i make a choice that i could become a target.

ligerdub

I'm just curious as to why there should be outrage at the death of the woman here but not the young man.

Yes, obviously the fact that 6 people have lost a mother is tragic and this was a heinous act, but bear in mind this young man lost the opportunity to get that far in life, relatively speaking he was only starting out in life. Is his life worth any less than hers? No. So why are we expected to just brush off the deaths of young guys when it happens so often?

I saw a story last week which at first glance I assumed to be a poor taste satire. The headline referred to "The surge of women being shot in the capital"

The story then mentioned that "4 women had been killed by gunfire in a little over a decade".......FOUR! One of those was a mentally ill ex-husband killing his ex-wife. These stories are all tragedies, but they don't become greater tragedies because of their gender.

bucketybuck

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

but the man who was shot was innocent, just in the wrong place at the wrong time

I don't really want to comment one way or another but I have to ask...

Wasn't that "wrong place" sitting in a car with a well known criminal who had a well known threat of violence hanging over him?

Or did I hear wrong and that he was actually just walking down the street or something like that?

Galwayguy35

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't really want to comment one way or another but I have to ask...

Wasn't that "wrong place" sitting in a car with a well known criminal who had a well known threat of violence hanging over him?

Or did I hear wrong and that he was actually just walking down the street or something like that?

I was only going by what I heard on the news when the Guards said he had no criminal convictions or links to the guy they were trying to kill.

Stark

judeboy101 wrote: »

If i find out in the morning my next door neighbour is a kinahan, and i choose to stay, i make a choice that i could become a target.

Because the people who live there have the cash resources to move to a nice house in South Dublin?

Bambi985

eviltwin wrote: »

We were still plunged into national mourning over it. Terrible tragedy but complete overkill and wouldn't have happened only for the background of the victims.

It was a huge story stateside too. I remember it was all over the major US TV networks at the time, NBC, CNN, they were reporting from Berkeley and then followed the story over to Ireland to interview some of the families/friends. The Irish media's pick-up on it was likely dictated a lot more by the US media's reaction to it than anything else.

Galwayguy35

ligerdub wrote: »

The only reason her death made the news was because people knew her.

Admittedly had she been an unknown it MIGHT have hit the papers, but by no means would it have been any more than just one of many stories, like the deaths of the two other people you mentioned.

I don't know, I still think a persons backround gets them more coverage, remember that young fella Brian Murphy that was killed outside the nightclub?

I wonder if his father was a factory worker and he lived in a council house would there have been as many articles about it?

ligerdub

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I don't know, I still think a persons backround gets them more coverage, remember that young fella Brian Murphy that was killed outside the nightclub?

I wonder if his father was a factory worker and he lived in a council house would there have been as many articles about it?

Fair enough about Brian Murphy, but that was more so a tabloid story sensationalised about the rivalry between two rugby schools. It was also because it is seen as such a rarity.

I would agree in that instance that the victim becomes more of the focus versus the perpetrators (as it may do in terms of a gangland crime), but the papers do this due to how the reader or viewer reacts.

All that considered, it still doesn't stop the fact that Katy French was only a story because she was well known in Ireland at the time. She was only on a fairly popular reality show about a month before she died.

Dantian

It is objectively sad - but people do tend to rank the shooting of someone who connections to organised crime as 'less tragic' than the death of someone who was protesting facism and hateful ideaologies.

It's sad when anyone dies, although Im more sad for her kids than I am for her necesserily, they didnt make their mothers decisions.

she didnt deserve it because no one does*, but it is harder to muster outrage for someone who gets involved in organised crime and then gets killed for being involved in organised crime.




*with some exceptions

r93kaey5p2izun

judeboy101 wrote: »

. If i find out in the morning my next door neighbour is a kinahan, and i choose to stay, i make a choice that i could become a target.

This comment is so stupid it beggars belief. The sheer ignorance of it is breathtaking - though one suspects it's more wilful ignorance than true lack of perspective.

Whatever about apportioning blame through choice in the case from last week, this suggestion truly smacks of let them eat cake.

bucketybuck

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I was only going by what I heard on the news when the Guards said he had no criminal convictions or links to the guy they were trying to kill.

There is clearly some link there though, whether it be criminal or they are just old friends. The report I read said that he had been giving the target a lift, thats just inherently dangerous when the guy is a criminal who has people publicly saying he is going to be shot.

Thats just why I asked, in case I had heard incorrectly. But while just giving an old friend a lift doesn't deserve getting shot its not quite the same as a totally random guy walking down the street and getting caught in the crossfire.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Two men opened fire with automatic weapons in a residential area with children everywhere, but fcuk it who cares, live by the sword die by the sword. Two people who weren't involved in gangland died violently, but it's their own fault really for being related to people / being in the line of fire.

Stellar attitude, way to break the cycle. I'm sure this whole situation will be way better by the time those kids grow up as long as we keep telling them they don't matter.

jmayo

I often think people nowadays have very little cop on.

I don't know if it is the school systems, the media or what, but some people really need to cop on that everyone is not made equal.

Thus when some people die, especially in violent or unfortunate circumstances, there is a huge deal made out of it and when some others die not so much is made out of it.

Speaking of islamic terrorism some people are on these forums complaining why a big deal is made out of an attack in say France or Spain and not so much one in Turkey or India.
That is down to familiarity and commonality.

It is like how one of the biggest stories in the media in UK out of the massacre in Barcelona is the death of a 7 year old boy.
This is in comparison to the death of a 3 year old Spanish child.
The 7 year old has British connections for a start, was initially deemed missing and there was the added sorrow factor of his father having to fly 22 hours to try find out if his son was dead.

At this stage people expect gangland killings in areas where drug gangs operate or where they are from.
We have become accustomed to shootings in certain parts of Dublin or indeed parts of Limerick in the past.

People don't expect a gangland hit in Ballsbridge no more than someone expected an attack at a hotel where there was a boxing weigh-in.
Thus they are massive news.

As for a young mother being shot, the first thing that leaps out is her brother is a criminal involved in this world and he does stay/visit her home.
It would be the same as if the father or brother of one of the terrorists from Barcelona was shot and killed.
A lot of people would just shrug their shoulders and consider it being down to them being around these types of people.

Another thing that happens in today's world is the speed of the media bandwagon.
It moves on very quickly to the next crisis, the next murder, the next terrorist attack, the next catastrophe.
Politicians have figured this out as a way of releasing bad news, some of the public haven't figured this out as of yet.

Spider Web

judeboy101 wrote: »

If i find out in the morning my next door neighbour is a kinahan, and i choose to stay, i make a choice that i could become a target.

Crikey, that is quite the deflection of blame.

A feared family moves into an estate and their next-door neighbours should move, otherwise it's their choice if they become a target? Move where? It's virtually impossible to get a transfer, particularly to where they are. They cannot afford private rent - that's why they're housed by the local authority. Even if they could, or could get rent allowance (which a lot of private property owners refuse) look at the accommodation situation.

I'ma blame the family that's doing the intimidating, nobody else.

Dantian

Everly Acidic Transgressor wrote: »

Two men opened fire with automatic weapons in a residential area with children everywhere, but fcuk it who cares, live by the sword die by the sword. Two people who weren't involved in gangland died violently, but it's their own fault really for being related to people / being in the line of fire.

Stellar attitude, way to break the cycle. I'm sure this whole situation will be way better by the time those kids grow up as long as we keep telling them they don't matter.

Very well put! Wish I could like this twice

dr.fuzzenstein

Everly Acidic Transgressor wrote: »

Two men opened fire with automatic weapons in a residential area with children everywhere, but fcuk it who cares, live by the sword die by the sword. Two people who weren't involved in gangland died violently, but it's their own fault really for being related to people / being in the line of fire.

Stellar attitude, way to break the cycle. I'm sure this whole situation will be way better by the time those kids grow up as long as we keep telling them they don't matter.

Because people are selfish. Because they only think of their own miserable self and the only 2 questions they ask is "will this cost me money" and "will I be safe?".
Kids being shot by gangsters=zero outrage. Someone else's kids, who cares, my kids are safe. They were scrotes anyway. No big deal.
Being asked to pay for water, i.e. having to pay for a resource and goods which costs (a LOT of) money to supply=thousands on the streets roaring their stupid, ignorant heads off over the greatest injustice in the history of mankind.
Après moi le déluge. People don't think past their own wallet and their own arse.

Spider Web

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

What is the difference between that accident and the two shot dead in Ballymun?

Oh yeah - they were from Ballymun.

While I agree the coverage of the balcony tragedy became too OTT, you know full well that Ballymun is not the only difference.

A few people here patting themselves on the back trying to depict others as postcode snobs when it's not just about address. It has been eclipsed by the "gangland" element rightly or wrongly.

I'm skeptical regarding the thread starter too - as someone asked, what did they do to show their outrage? Or is that kinda stuff only up to "other people"?

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Because people are selfish. Because they only think of their own miserable self and the only 2 questions they ask is "will this cost me money" and "will I be safe?".
Kids being shot by gangsters=zero outrage. Someone else's kids, who cares, my kids are safe. They were scrotes anyway. No big deal.
Being asked to pay for water, i.e. having to pay for a resource and goods which costs (a LOT of) money to supply=thousands on the streets roaring their stupid, ignorant heads off over the greatest injustice in the history of mankind.
Après moi le déluge. People don't think past their own wallet and their own arse.

This kind of thing always refers to "people". Specify which people (you're obviously not including yourself or others who think like you, but you're all people) otherwise it's similar to the opening post about everyone else not being outraged.

When the story broke, I saw plenty of people expressing horror at this happening where there were small children.

I am convinced the Barcelona atrocity shifted focus. That happens too. E.g. when those little schoolgirls were subjected to abuse and intimidation from lowlives in the North, it was forgotten due to 9/11 but it carried on long after.

dr.fuzzenstein

Spider Web wrote: »

This kind of thing always refers to "people". Specify which people (you're obviously not including yourself or others who think like you, but you're all people) otherwise it's similar to the opening post about everyone else not being outraged.

When the story broke, I saw plenty of people expressing horror at this happening where there were small children.

I am convinced the Barcelona atrocity shifted focus. That happens too. E.g. when those little schoolgirls were subjected to abuse and intimidation from lowlives in the North, it was forgotten due to 9/11 but it carried on long after.

The difference is of course that this is just par of the course. Scrote gangsters shoot scrote woman and scrote kids. Nothing special, all as we know it, nothing new to see here.
Barcelone? Bloody islaminists, costing me money and they seem to kill decent people! I could be next! Unacceptable.

_Dara_

eviltwin wrote: »

We were still plunged into national mourning over it. Terrible tragedy but complete overkill and wouldn't have happened only for the background of the victims.

Agreed, totally over the top. And I actually felt really sorry for the families of the victims too, I'd say they could have done without the scrutiny also. I bet they didn't ask for it.

meeeeh

Everly Acidic Transgressor wrote: »

Two men opened fire with automatic weapons in a residential area with children everywhere, but fcuk it who cares, live by the sword die by the sword. Two people who weren't involved in gangland died violently, but it's their own fault really for being related to people / being in the line of fire.

Stellar attitude, way to break the cycle. I'm sure this whole situation will be way better by the time those kids grow up as long as we keep telling them they don't matter.

And national outpour of sadness would change that how?

People are more affected by deaths they can relate to. An average law abiding citizen whose kids travel a bit will relate a lot more to something like a balcony happening than someone related to gang members getting killed in a gang feud. Besides balcony collapse was one off the gang shootings in Dublin are in the news so much in last few years that the shock value is gone. Same is happening in relation to wars, who is still as horrified about the Syria war as they were couple of years ago? It's very easy to be on a high horse and go on about how people don't care but if you care and do nothing, what is the point of it.

BillyBobBS

annascott wrote: »

Druggie people on a rough estate getting shot is not deemed as tragic as innocent people getting shot. There is always a sense of "could that happen to me/people like me?" When it is a drug or gangland related feud, most just shrug and move on feeling that it is just a few more criminals off the streets.
I am not saying that it is right, just how it is.

Nice stereotyping.

judeboy101

Spider Web wrote: »

Crikey, that is quite the deflection of blame.

A feared family moves into an estate and their next-door neighbours should move, otherwise it's their choice if they become a target? Move where? It's virtually impossible to get a transfer, particularly to where they are. They cannot afford private rent - that's why they're housed by the local authority. Even if they could, or could get rent allowance (which a lot of private property owners refuse) look at the accommodation situation.

I'ma blame the family that's doing the intimidating, nobody else.

I'd put big sign outside my window with an arrow pointing next door and the words "that's the house you are looking for".

r93kaey5p2izun

I don't buy the relatability angle. Could people not relate to the council worker shot dead on his holidays in Spain? Or the family in the shopping centre car park who ended up with a bullet in their child's car seat? I personally would question the intelligence of anyone thinking they are safe from being caught up in these events.

Spider Web

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

The difference is of course that this is just par of the course. Scrote gangsters shoot scrote woman and scrote kids. Nothing special, all as we know it, nothing new to see here.
Barcelone? Bloody islaminists, costing me money and they seem to kill decent people! I could be next! Unacceptable.

"Costing me money"?

You're making a lot of noise but not offering any solutions or demonstrating how you're any different.

Bit of a stretch to actually find fault with people being bothered by the event in Barcelona (and similar in numerous other cities).

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

meeeeh wrote: »

And national outpour of sadness would change that how?
.

There's a lot of wriggle room between a national outpouring of sadness and shrugging the deaths off. There's a difference between being particularly affected by something because you find it very relatable and essentially saying that some lives matter less.

The people bereaved by these murders can read, these dismissive attitudes do matter and do have consequences down the line. I saw it myself after the Carrickmines fire. Not to mind that the attitude isn't arising out of a vacuum, and is representative of how people and institutions in a position of authority or with a duty of care to these communities often behave.

ELM327

If this was someone from a leafy road beside the embassies, then it would have been more newsworthy.

Generally people from outside of the rougher, single mother with many childer for the free gaff areas would not have the same level of empathy as they would for someone from their own area or a comparable area.

"Working Dalkey mother of 1 shot at home" = shocking mainline news
"Ballymun stay at home mother of 6 shot at home" = expected behaviour due to the area's rep.

Like it or lump it, that's how we are as a society. If we weren't, then the killing of the ballymun mother would have been more noticed

professore

What are the odds that the OP is from Ballymun or a similar area? Thereby proving what others are saying that most people only care about what affects them directly.

The posh journos don't live in Ballymun as a rule.

It's like the government encouraging more diversity yet this section of the workforce is the most white Irish you can find, and can go one end of the year to the other hardly seeing anyone from an ethnic minority. Looking down their noses at "working class racists" from their ivory towers. On the other hand the "Anti Austerity" parties just go off the principle that no one should pay for anything except the rich, defined as anyone who earns more than they do. And don't get me started on the OAP medical cards. People with millions getting medical cards. Pure self interest again.

My thoughts are with that woman and her family.