Back to school costs

Ubbquittious

When I was a youngfella (back in the 90's) the most of the back to school spending was on stationary and books with torn covers. Perhaps a new lunch box but if I gathered more than £10 of "inky biros", pencils and pencil cases I'd be made put some back

I went to school in Holland for a short while and you didn't even have to buy books there. They were all supplied by the school.

But what happened since the 90's? A brand new Core i7 laptop and several 100 worth of clothing seems to be the run of the mill now. What happens these days if you attempt to send a youngster to school with a fistfull of inky biros and some books with torn covers?

Are the €1,000+ cost per child of sending them back to school genuine or is everyone just trying to outdo each other?

Shinbin223

I have experience of this as I work in education.
The high cost of going back to school comes to the fore in the media at this time every single year. Personally I do not understand how it could come to near €1000 to send a child to school. I have nieces and nephews and am aware of the costs in my own place of work and none of them come close to €1000. That being said, I've more experience in the primary sector.
Books for any child in primary school should not come to more than €80, maybe in some schools they do but with the money schools get for book rental schemes I fail to see how.

Another thing that baffles me is the view that uniforms are crazy expensive. I know that in the cases where schools have crested items the price can be that bit higher than if not. The t shirts/shirts/socks etc can be bought anywhere and it's surely up to the parent whether they decide to spend less or more on these items.
The alternative to having no uniform would be a lot more expensive. I know of schools who years ago didn't have a uniform and it ended up in a scenario that parents actually went and bought uniform type items I.e tracksuit and jumpers as it worked out so much cheaper for them.

After that it comes down to stationery, lunch boxes etc and again it's up to parents to decide how much they want to spend on these items. They can be bought cheaply in a Euro giant or similar or one can go all out and spend €15/€20 on a lunchbox if they so wish.

Maybe secondary school is more expensive and possibly is with the price of school books and uniforms being that bit dearer. Added into that prices for exams, voluntary contribution I can see how it is more draining on the pocket.
I definitely think this is more of a news story that's trotted out every year at the same time, and is grossly exaggerated by the media.

Wanderer78

Shur, don't we have a 'Free' educational system!

noaddedsugar

My kids are in primary school so not as high costs as secondary. Off the top of my head we have spent 95e each on book rental from the school, about 40e each on uniforms, one of them needed a hurling helmet(the school requires this for PE) that was 45, they have bags/lunchboxes/pencil cases from last year so we just needed stationary I think I spent about 15e between the two of them. It's not so bad. There will be more bits when they start back to school and I haven't included the 'voluntary contribution' of 165e per child which they expect to be paid in instalments when they send a brown envelope home with the kids every two weeks.

I know our local secondary uses ipads though so when they start there the first year at least is going to be 100s.

Radio_Fan_738

You know those 75€ Tartan skirts that a lot of girls secondary schools have ? Well they are especially manufactured in Ireland so getting rid of them would cost jobs

Permabear

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Shinbin223

Another thing I don't understand or agree with is the voluntary contribution. I can understand a €15/20 charge for art and crafts or photocopying.
What exactly does the voluntary contribution go towards? Is it only a thing in cities and large areas as I've never heard of it in any school local to me and I'm somewhat rural?

erica74

It seems to me that people enjoy whinging about the costs involved with raising the children they chose to have.
There's lots of talk about how the children "need" this and that, but in reality, there is a huge element of trying to out do each other.

When I was in school, I was the youngest of 3, so got "preloved" books, bags and uniforms. It didn't make any difference to the education I received. Also, teachers were always very understanding and obliging when I didn't have the latest edition of a book or whatever, photocopies were handed out etc.

If parents are concerned about costs for laptops etc (if a school is demanding each student have a laptop, that's bananas!) then go to the parents council, school board, department of education, whoever they need to to get an agreement that laptops (and any other frivolous items) aren't a necessity.
A lot of the items on the school list are suggestions rather than essentials.

The_Valeyard

I do not understand why this comes as a shock to people. You know school is coming, you know it can be expensive. Why not budget, but a fiver or 10er away a week to take this sting out if it.

The_Valeyard

I do not understand why this comes as a shock to people. You know school is coming, you know it can be expensive. Why not budget, but a fiver or 10er away a week to take this sting out if it.

Wanderer78

Permabear wrote:

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Happy days, uni here I come!

Ger Roe

The use of Ipads in schools is being driven by the schools themselves in an attempt to push ahead of the possy. It's a self promoted vanity project.

A school my children attend has gone from a €70 a year book rental scheme to an Ipad scheme that now costs in excess of €800 by the time you buy it (from a school appointed single source supplier), have it 'set up' (restricted use settings imposed by the self appointed supplier), receive usage training (provided by the self appointed supplier) and purchase Ebooks (the cost of which is over three times the original book rental cost and rising every year).

I had a frank discussion with the principle of the school about the value of such an arrangement, both in terms of what I believe to be a monopolistic rip off of the equipment supply and cost and also the actual value in educational terms to the students. In my opinion mere use of an Ipad is not sufficient advantage to justify the excessive costs being imposed on parents. In this school only Ipads can be used to avail of the Elearning system (no laptops, or other tablets that you might already have), and the Ipads must be bought from the appointed supplier and training service provider. The school's IT system is maintained by a teacher who takes on the role in addition to his other academic duties. There is no central management or supervision of these school services by the Dept of Education.

Schools should be offering programming courses, but that would be far more difficult than simply getting parents to pay for vanity technology experiments. The principle told me that he had heard the arguments before but that they were carrying on regardless, simply because they can. The Dept of Ed is practically powerless to take action as they can not directly influence the board of management policies.

I did contact the Dept of Ed with my concerns, and they undertook to investigate further, but I never heard anything back from them and since then the costs of the scheme have continued to rise and the school appointed equipment supplier/training provider is guaranteed a fresh input of parents to fleece very year. This is a scandal that will eventually break when enough people come across it.

I did ask the principle to get me the contact details of the owner of the supplier/training company so that I could buy shares in the operation. It's a great business model with fantastic rip off potential and seemingly no departmental regulation.

The costs associated with the Ipad scheme do not obviously include additional back to school costs such as uniforms and school transport. The Dept of Ed needs to take a serious look at what is going on and if E learning is to be used in Irish schools, they need to take the lead in defining what equipment is employed and how it is introduced and managed. Schools are taking technical advice from the people that are supplying them with the equipment and services and that may not be in the best interests of the schools or the parents who then have to foot the excessive bills.

andekwarhola

To be fair, years of underspending in education has resulted in state schools having to load a lot of costs back on to parents. My wife is on a parents association for a small primary school and they're constantly trying to raise money to pay for heating, materials, extensions and what not.

I think we've spent roughly over €500 (school contribution, uniform, bags, materials, books etc) so far for two primary school kids this year. We're able to pay it but that's still an awful lot of money for some people.

mahamageehad

To be fair, a family friend has a kid starting secondary in a few weeks in Kilkenny.
All kids were told that they had to cough up €600 for a tablet that would be used as their books for the year. Now, to be fair, I think that will last the entire length of school but it's still a big first expense.

The uniform came in at just over €300 - parents were informed by letter that the uniforms had to be "official" ones purchased in 1 or 2 specified local shops. That was for the skirt, jumper, 2 blouses and gym gear. There was a "optional" school jacket for another €70 that they didn't take.

That's all before things like voluntary contributions, lunch boxes, stationary, school bag etc. Now, I know that the next kid will be less expensive when they get to that school in 2 years as there'll be hand-me-downs, but it's still a lot higher than I would have expected.

Permabear

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Shinbin223

erica74 wrote: »

It seems to me that people enjoy whinging about the costs involved with raising the children they chose to have.
There's lots of talk about how the children "need" this and that, but in reality, there is a huge element of trying to out do each other.

When I was in school, I was the youngest of 3, so got "preloved" books, bags and uniforms. It didn't make any difference to the education I received. Also, teachers were always very understanding and obliging when I didn't have the latest edition of a book or whatever, photocopies were handed out etc.

If parents are concerned about costs for laptops etc (if a school is demanding each student have a laptop, that's bananas!) then go to the parents council, school board, department of education, whoever they need to to get an agreement that laptops (and any other frivolous items) aren't a necessity.

I completely agree with the whole idea of parents trying to out do each other. I have heard parents of Junior Infants say " I had to buy the Dora the explorer lunch box and bag for €18 as she wouldn't let me buy a cheaper one."
And these are the same parents that probably give out about the price of going back to school.
There are people who will give out about having to fork out money for anything they don't necessarily agree with and that goes for all expenses not just back to school.

I know of a case where a parent got the date of her child's First Communion wrong. The actual date was a fortnight before she thought it was going to be. She caused arguments and said the school and everyone was being unfair to her as her child's dress would never be ready in time as it was being specially made. She was offered money to buy another Communion dress I think to call her bluff and I don't think it was assumed that she would actually take the money.

She took the €150 and low and behold her child turns up on the day of her Communion in the original dress complete with glitter, stick on butterflies etc. Where did the €150 go? The same parent was able to buy said child an I Pad as a Communion gift and was always into the school complaining about the price of books and stationery. I think there is a sector of similar people to her who just believe things should be handed to them and they should never have to pay for anything whatsoever.

Heisenbug

Ger Roe wrote: »

The use of Ipads in schools is being driven by the schools themselves in an attempt to push ahead of the possy. It's a self promoted vanity project.

A school my children attend has gone from a €70 a year book rental scheme to an Ipad scheme that now costs in excess of €800 .

That's interesting. I thought nearly all schools here would be using chromebooks? 'only' 150 - 200e. And can be managed on the school network.

Chromebook are miles ahead (at least what I read last week) in the U.S. for these reasons.

iPads seem excessive for education.

meeeeh

I don't know about secondary school but for our two primary school kids back to school cost will be covered in about a month by paying less for childminding. I think a lot of people who are complaining about the cost have absolutely no understanding how much more expensive it is to have kids in creche. I have some sympathy for people who are struggling because it all has to be bought at the same time but primary school costs are not that high. And kids need clothes anyway, uniform is probably a cheaper solution.

Permabear

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erica74

mahamageehad wrote: »

The uniform came in at just over €300 - parents were informed by letter that the uniforms had to be "official" ones purchased in 1 or 2 specified local shops. That was for the skirt, jumper, 2 blouses and gym gear. There was a "optional" school jacket for another €70 that they didn't take.

Those parents are well within their rights to say they're buying the uniform from an affordable shop. The school can't refuse your child because the uniform they are wearing isn't fully compliant.
I was sent to school in plain navy skirts/trousers and jumpers. The proper school uniform was a specific expensive v neck jumper with the crest on it and specific skirt and trousers from a fancy uniform shop. My mother bought my uniform in dunnes, it cost a tiny fraction of the proper uniform. Plenty of people in my school did similar. What I was wearing didn't make a difference to my ability to learn.

coffee_cake

Heisenbug wrote: »

That's interesting. I thought nearly all schools here would be using chromebooks? 'only' 150 - 200e. And can be managed on the school network.

Chromebook are miles ahead (at least what I read last week) in the U.S. for these reasons.

iPads seem excessive for education.

They do.
God be with the days we used to buy our books from the class above us at the end of the year!! I think they did away with that by having mandatory workbooks in the last few years. And now ipads.

mahamageehad

erica74 wrote: »

Those parents are well within their rights to say they're buying the uniform from an affordable shop. The school can't refuse your child because the uniform they are wearing isn't fully compliant.
I was sent to school in plain navy skirts/trousers and jumpers. The proper school uniform was a specific expensive v neck jumper with the crest on it and specific skirt and trousers from a fancy uniform shop. My mother bought my uniform in dunnes, it cost a tiny fraction of the proper uniform. Plenty of people in my school did similar. What I was wearing didn't make a difference to my ability to learn.

Oh I completely agree that that's how it *should* work. A decade ago when I was in secondary school, the jumpers were navy and the school made the crests available to buy so a parent could buy a cheaper jumper from Penneys and sew the crest on. The letter that these parents got was that children who turned up not in the official uniform or gym gear would be sent home. Those are their rules. It makes a difference to your ability to learn if they remove you from the premises.

The_Valeyard

The most recent research would suggest that Ipad/ tablet technology is not suitable for education and may actually be harmful rather than beneficial.

erica74

mahamageehad wrote: »

Oh I completely agree that that's how it *should* work. A decade ago when I was in secondary school, the jumpers were navy and the school made the crests available to buy so a parent could buy a cheaper jumper from Penneys and sew the crest on. The letter that these parents got was that children who turned up not in the official uniform or gym gear would be sent home. Those are their rules. It makes a difference to your ability to learn if they remove you from the premises.

Well the parents need to go to the parents council, school board, department of education and tell them to get a grip of these outlandish uniform costs.

I know when I was in school, there was plenty of issues about not having the right uniform etc but my mother is bananas so she would just shout them down on the issue.
I remember being made to stand in the back for school photos etc, not that I gave a toss about that when I was teenager.

Radio_Fan_738

Homeschooling is the way to go, public schools exist to brainwash children into becoming compliant sheep.

mirrorwall14

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes but Ireland funds 3rd level which is an enormous outlay. Most countries do not. It is not to do with staffing levels. We have some of the largest class sizes, and longest teaching annual hours in the OECD

mahamageehad

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The most recent research would suggest that Ipad/ tablet technology is not suitable for education and may actually be harmful rather than beneficial.

I'd tend to agree with that tbh although I do see the benefit of e-learning in reducing the amount of books kids need to carry.

I'm currently doing an evening degree myself, and I generally have two devices in front of me - 1 with e-learning material from the course and 1 where I work on assignments. I also have multiple notebooks with handwritten notes. I'd be interested to know if it's more difficult for kids to do homework etc. on these devices as they can presumably only have the homework page open rather than the reference?

mahamageehad

erica74 wrote: »

Well the parents need to go to the parents council, school board, department of education and tell them to get a grip of these outlandish uniform costs.

I know when I was in school, there was plenty of issues about not having the right uniform etc but my mother is bananas so she would just shout them down on the issue.
I remember being made to stand in the back for school photos etc, not that I gave a toss about that when I was teenager.

Oh I completely agree, but it's not my place to tell them to do that. There are other factors in play and I'd say they don't want to mark the kid out as "different" or "difficult" from the get-go so they're leaving it slip. The cheek of the school though. It's one of the schools where it's difficult enough to get a place so they can just tell parents to like it or lump it.

Steve F

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The most recent research would suggest that Ipad/ tablet technology is not suitable for education and may actually be harmful rather than beneficial.

Why can't all the books be downloaded onto a Kindle?

mahamageehad

Steve F wrote: »

Why can't all the books be downloaded onto a Kindle?

I'd guess that it's not "interactive" enough? From my understanding the ebooks are less like books and more like apps where the kids can directly write in things and answer questions and there's logic in the background that checks if it's correct?

Steve F

mahamageehad wrote: »

I'd guess that it's not "interactive" enough? From my understanding the ebooks are less like books and more like apps where the kids can directly write in things and answer questions and there's logic in the background that checks if it's correct?

Kindles are interactive tho
You can highlight text and passages and learn more?