Back to school costs

Ubbquittious

When I was a youngfella (back in the 90's) the most of the back to school spending was on stationary and books with torn covers. Perhaps a new lunch box but if I gathered more than £10 of "inky biros", pencils and pencil cases I'd be made put some back

I went to school in Holland for a short while and you didn't even have to buy books there. They were all supplied by the school.

But what happened since the 90's? A brand new Core i7 laptop and several 100 worth of clothing seems to be the run of the mill now. What happens these days if you attempt to send a youngster to school with a fistfull of inky biros and some books with torn covers?

Are the €1,000+ cost per child of sending them back to school genuine or is everyone just trying to outdo each other?

Shinbin223

I have experience of this as I work in education.
The high cost of going back to school comes to the fore in the media at this time every single year. Personally I do not understand how it could come to near €1000 to send a child to school. I have nieces and nephews and am aware of the costs in my own place of work and none of them come close to €1000. That being said, I've more experience in the primary sector.
Books for any child in primary school should not come to more than €80, maybe in some schools they do but with the money schools get for book rental schemes I fail to see how.

Another thing that baffles me is the view that uniforms are crazy expensive. I know that in the cases where schools have crested items the price can be that bit higher than if not. The t shirts/shirts/socks etc can be bought anywhere and it's surely up to the parent whether they decide to spend less or more on these items.
The alternative to having no uniform would be a lot more expensive. I know of schools who years ago didn't have a uniform and it ended up in a scenario that parents actually went and bought uniform type items I.e tracksuit and jumpers as it worked out so much cheaper for them.

After that it comes down to stationery, lunch boxes etc and again it's up to parents to decide how much they want to spend on these items. They can be bought cheaply in a Euro giant or similar or one can go all out and spend €15/€20 on a lunchbox if they so wish.

Maybe secondary school is more expensive and possibly is with the price of school books and uniforms being that bit dearer. Added into that prices for exams, voluntary contribution I can see how it is more draining on the pocket.
I definitely think this is more of a news story that's trotted out every year at the same time, and is grossly exaggerated by the media.

Wanderer78

Shur, don't we have a 'Free' educational system!

noaddedsugar

My kids are in primary school so not as high costs as secondary. Off the top of my head we have spent 95e each on book rental from the school, about 40e each on uniforms, one of them needed a hurling helmet(the school requires this for PE) that was 45, they have bags/lunchboxes/pencil cases from last year so we just needed stationary I think I spent about 15e between the two of them. It's not so bad. There will be more bits when they start back to school and I haven't included the 'voluntary contribution' of 165e per child which they expect to be paid in instalments when they send a brown envelope home with the kids every two weeks.

I know our local secondary uses ipads though so when they start there the first year at least is going to be 100s.

Radio_Fan_738

You know those 75€ Tartan skirts that a lot of girls secondary schools have ? Well they are especially manufactured in Ireland so getting rid of them would cost jobs

Permabear

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Shinbin223

Another thing I don't understand or agree with is the voluntary contribution. I can understand a €15/20 charge for art and crafts or photocopying.
What exactly does the voluntary contribution go towards? Is it only a thing in cities and large areas as I've never heard of it in any school local to me and I'm somewhat rural?

erica74

It seems to me that people enjoy whinging about the costs involved with raising the children they chose to have.
There's lots of talk about how the children "need" this and that, but in reality, there is a huge element of trying to out do each other.

When I was in school, I was the youngest of 3, so got "preloved" books, bags and uniforms. It didn't make any difference to the education I received. Also, teachers were always very understanding and obliging when I didn't have the latest edition of a book or whatever, photocopies were handed out etc.

If parents are concerned about costs for laptops etc (if a school is demanding each student have a laptop, that's bananas!) then go to the parents council, school board, department of education, whoever they need to to get an agreement that laptops (and any other frivolous items) aren't a necessity.
A lot of the items on the school list are suggestions rather than essentials.

The_Valeyard

I do not understand why this comes as a shock to people. You know school is coming, you know it can be expensive. Why not budget, but a fiver or 10er away a week to take this sting out if it.

The_Valeyard

I do not understand why this comes as a shock to people. You know school is coming, you know it can be expensive. Why not budget, but a fiver or 10er away a week to take this sting out if it.

Wanderer78

Permabear wrote:

This post had been deleted.

Happy days, uni here I come!

Ger Roe

The use of Ipads in schools is being driven by the schools themselves in an attempt to push ahead of the possy. It's a self promoted vanity project.

A school my children attend has gone from a €70 a year book rental scheme to an Ipad scheme that now costs in excess of €800 by the time you buy it (from a school appointed single source supplier), have it 'set up' (restricted use settings imposed by the self appointed supplier), receive usage training (provided by the self appointed supplier) and purchase Ebooks (the cost of which is over three times the original book rental cost and rising every year).

I had a frank discussion with the principle of the school about the value of such an arrangement, both in terms of what I believe to be a monopolistic rip off of the equipment supply and cost and also the actual value in educational terms to the students. In my opinion mere use of an Ipad is not sufficient advantage to justify the excessive costs being imposed on parents. In this school only Ipads can be used to avail of the Elearning system (no laptops, or other tablets that you might already have), and the Ipads must be bought from the appointed supplier and training service provider. The school's IT system is maintained by a teacher who takes on the role in addition to his other academic duties. There is no central management or supervision of these school services by the Dept of Education.

Schools should be offering programming courses, but that would be far more difficult than simply getting parents to pay for vanity technology experiments. The principle told me that he had heard the arguments before but that they were carrying on regardless, simply because they can. The Dept of Ed is practically powerless to take action as they can not directly influence the board of management policies.

I did contact the Dept of Ed with my concerns, and they undertook to investigate further, but I never heard anything back from them and since then the costs of the scheme have continued to rise and the school appointed equipment supplier/training provider is guaranteed a fresh input of parents to fleece very year. This is a scandal that will eventually break when enough people come across it.

I did ask the principle to get me the contact details of the owner of the supplier/training company so that I could buy shares in the operation. It's a great business model with fantastic rip off potential and seemingly no departmental regulation.

The costs associated with the Ipad scheme do not obviously include additional back to school costs such as uniforms and school transport. The Dept of Ed needs to take a serious look at what is going on and if E learning is to be used in Irish schools, they need to take the lead in defining what equipment is employed and how it is introduced and managed. Schools are taking technical advice from the people that are supplying them with the equipment and services and that may not be in the best interests of the schools or the parents who then have to foot the excessive bills.

andekwarhola

To be fair, years of underspending in education has resulted in state schools having to load a lot of costs back on to parents. My wife is on a parents association for a small primary school and they're constantly trying to raise money to pay for heating, materials, extensions and what not.

I think we've spent roughly over €500 (school contribution, uniform, bags, materials, books etc) so far for two primary school kids this year. We're able to pay it but that's still an awful lot of money for some people.

mahamageehad

To be fair, a family friend has a kid starting secondary in a few weeks in Kilkenny.
All kids were told that they had to cough up €600 for a tablet that would be used as their books for the year. Now, to be fair, I think that will last the entire length of school but it's still a big first expense.

The uniform came in at just over €300 - parents were informed by letter that the uniforms had to be "official" ones purchased in 1 or 2 specified local shops. That was for the skirt, jumper, 2 blouses and gym gear. There was a "optional" school jacket for another €70 that they didn't take.

That's all before things like voluntary contributions, lunch boxes, stationary, school bag etc. Now, I know that the next kid will be less expensive when they get to that school in 2 years as there'll be hand-me-downs, but it's still a lot higher than I would have expected.

Permabear

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Shinbin223

erica74 wrote: »

It seems to me that people enjoy whinging about the costs involved with raising the children they chose to have.
There's lots of talk about how the children "need" this and that, but in reality, there is a huge element of trying to out do each other.

When I was in school, I was the youngest of 3, so got "preloved" books, bags and uniforms. It didn't make any difference to the education I received. Also, teachers were always very understanding and obliging when I didn't have the latest edition of a book or whatever, photocopies were handed out etc.

If parents are concerned about costs for laptops etc (if a school is demanding each student have a laptop, that's bananas!) then go to the parents council, school board, department of education, whoever they need to to get an agreement that laptops (and any other frivolous items) aren't a necessity.

I completely agree with the whole idea of parents trying to out do each other. I have heard parents of Junior Infants say " I had to buy the Dora the explorer lunch box and bag for €18 as she wouldn't let me buy a cheaper one."
And these are the same parents that probably give out about the price of going back to school.
There are people who will give out about having to fork out money for anything they don't necessarily agree with and that goes for all expenses not just back to school.

I know of a case where a parent got the date of her child's First Communion wrong. The actual date was a fortnight before she thought it was going to be. She caused arguments and said the school and everyone was being unfair to her as her child's dress would never be ready in time as it was being specially made. She was offered money to buy another Communion dress I think to call her bluff and I don't think it was assumed that she would actually take the money.

She took the €150 and low and behold her child turns up on the day of her Communion in the original dress complete with glitter, stick on butterflies etc. Where did the €150 go? The same parent was able to buy said child an I Pad as a Communion gift and was always into the school complaining about the price of books and stationery. I think there is a sector of similar people to her who just believe things should be handed to them and they should never have to pay for anything whatsoever.

Heisenbug

Ger Roe wrote: »

The use of Ipads in schools is being driven by the schools themselves in an attempt to push ahead of the possy. It's a self promoted vanity project.

A school my children attend has gone from a €70 a year book rental scheme to an Ipad scheme that now costs in excess of €800 .

That's interesting. I thought nearly all schools here would be using chromebooks? 'only' 150 - 200e. And can be managed on the school network.

Chromebook are miles ahead (at least what I read last week) in the U.S. for these reasons.

iPads seem excessive for education.

meeeeh

I don't know about secondary school but for our two primary school kids back to school cost will be covered in about a month by paying less for childminding. I think a lot of people who are complaining about the cost have absolutely no understanding how much more expensive it is to have kids in creche. I have some sympathy for people who are struggling because it all has to be bought at the same time but primary school costs are not that high. And kids need clothes anyway, uniform is probably a cheaper solution.

Permabear

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erica74

mahamageehad wrote: »

The uniform came in at just over €300 - parents were informed by letter that the uniforms had to be "official" ones purchased in 1 or 2 specified local shops. That was for the skirt, jumper, 2 blouses and gym gear. There was a "optional" school jacket for another €70 that they didn't take.

Those parents are well within their rights to say they're buying the uniform from an affordable shop. The school can't refuse your child because the uniform they are wearing isn't fully compliant.
I was sent to school in plain navy skirts/trousers and jumpers. The proper school uniform was a specific expensive v neck jumper with the crest on it and specific skirt and trousers from a fancy uniform shop. My mother bought my uniform in dunnes, it cost a tiny fraction of the proper uniform. Plenty of people in my school did similar. What I was wearing didn't make a difference to my ability to learn.

Heisenbug

Heisenbug wrote: »

That's interesting. I thought nearly all schools here would be using chromebooks? 'only' 150 - 200e. And can be managed on the school network.

Chromebook are miles ahead (at least what I read last week) in the U.S. for these reasons.

iPads seem excessive for education.

They do.
God be with the days we used to buy our books from the class above us at the end of the year!! I think they did away with that by having mandatory workbooks in the last few years. And now ipads.

mahamageehad

erica74 wrote: »

Those parents are well within their rights to say they're buying the uniform from an affordable shop. The school can't refuse your child because the uniform they are wearing isn't fully compliant.
I was sent to school in plain navy skirts/trousers and jumpers. The proper school uniform was a specific expensive v neck jumper with the crest on it and specific skirt and trousers from a fancy uniform shop. My mother bought my uniform in dunnes, it cost a tiny fraction of the proper uniform. Plenty of people in my school did similar. What I was wearing didn't make a difference to my ability to learn.

Oh I completely agree that that's how it *should* work. A decade ago when I was in secondary school, the jumpers were navy and the school made the crests available to buy so a parent could buy a cheaper jumper from Penneys and sew the crest on. The letter that these parents got was that children who turned up not in the official uniform or gym gear would be sent home. Those are their rules. It makes a difference to your ability to learn if they remove you from the premises.

The_Valeyard

The most recent research would suggest that Ipad/ tablet technology is not suitable for education and may actually be harmful rather than beneficial.

erica74

mahamageehad wrote: »

Oh I completely agree that that's how it *should* work. A decade ago when I was in secondary school, the jumpers were navy and the school made the crests available to buy so a parent could buy a cheaper jumper from Penneys and sew the crest on. The letter that these parents got was that children who turned up not in the official uniform or gym gear would be sent home. Those are their rules. It makes a difference to your ability to learn if they remove you from the premises.

Well the parents need to go to the parents council, school board, department of education and tell them to get a grip of these outlandish uniform costs.

I know when I was in school, there was plenty of issues about not having the right uniform etc but my mother is bananas so she would just shout them down on the issue.
I remember being made to stand in the back for school photos etc, not that I gave a toss about that when I was teenager.

Radio_Fan_738

Homeschooling is the way to go, public schools exist to brainwash children into becoming compliant sheep.

mirrorwall14

Permabear wrote: »

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Yes but Ireland funds 3rd level which is an enormous outlay. Most countries do not. It is not to do with staffing levels. We have some of the largest class sizes, and longest teaching annual hours in the OECD

mahamageehad

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The most recent research would suggest that Ipad/ tablet technology is not suitable for education and may actually be harmful rather than beneficial.

I'd tend to agree with that tbh although I do see the benefit of e-learning in reducing the amount of books kids need to carry.

I'm currently doing an evening degree myself, and I generally have two devices in front of me - 1 with e-learning material from the course and 1 where I work on assignments. I also have multiple notebooks with handwritten notes. I'd be interested to know if it's more difficult for kids to do homework etc. on these devices as they can presumably only have the homework page open rather than the reference?

mahamageehad

erica74 wrote: »

Well the parents need to go to the parents council, school board, department of education and tell them to get a grip of these outlandish uniform costs.

I know when I was in school, there was plenty of issues about not having the right uniform etc but my mother is bananas so she would just shout them down on the issue.
I remember being made to stand in the back for school photos etc, not that I gave a toss about that when I was teenager.

Oh I completely agree, but it's not my place to tell them to do that. There are other factors in play and I'd say they don't want to mark the kid out as "different" or "difficult" from the get-go so they're leaving it slip. The cheek of the school though. It's one of the schools where it's difficult enough to get a place so they can just tell parents to like it or lump it.

Steve F

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The most recent research would suggest that Ipad/ tablet technology is not suitable for education and may actually be harmful rather than beneficial.

Why can't all the books be downloaded onto a Kindle?

mahamageehad

Steve F wrote: »

Why can't all the books be downloaded onto a Kindle?

I'd guess that it's not "interactive" enough? From my understanding the ebooks are less like books and more like apps where the kids can directly write in things and answer questions and there's logic in the background that checks if it's correct?

Steve F

mahamageehad wrote: »

I'd guess that it's not "interactive" enough? From my understanding the ebooks are less like books and more like apps where the kids can directly write in things and answer questions and there's logic in the background that checks if it's correct?

Kindles are interactive tho
You can highlight text and passages and learn more?

Ger Roe

Heisenbug wrote: »

That's interesting. I thought nearly all schools here would be using chromebooks? 'only' 150 - 200e. And can be managed on the school network.

Chromebook are miles ahead (at least what I read last week) in the U.S. for these reasons.

iPads seem excessive for education.

The problem is that there is no centrally imposed departmental standard. Each school makes up its own E learning policy and decides how it is implemented. Some schools allow use of existing equipment, some offer a limited choice of equipment from an appointed supplier and some offer no choice except take it or leave it. Systems are being cobbled together as needed.

In my particular case the school concerned has insisted on what I firmly believe to be a very poor value choice of offering no choice but to deal with a monopolistic provider.

The bigger question is what advantage does Elearning currently provide?. The school could not provide me with any reports concerning usage in Irish schools - parents are being used to finance technology experiments carried out on a school by school basis.

The Dept of Ed needs to get a grip and introduce a national system - same equipment and services for all, using the advantages of scale to keep costs down. Schools are making it up as they go along, while being advised by their self appointed 'technology partners'. I actually attended the training session provided for the young people using Ipads and was astounded to see that the students were told to lie about their age so that they could open an account to avail of the free cloudspace being used for backup. Should we not be educating our young people about web safety, privacy and security instead of teaching them how to circumvent the system at their first formal introduction?

Geuze

andekwarhola wrote: »

To be fair, years of underspending in education

Underspending?

A typical teachers pension is 700 pw.

We have 3,200 primary schools, so we have to pay 3,200 principals and their pensions.

A parish centred on a village in Co. Sligo has 5 primary schools.

heroics

I have no problem with secondary school children using tablets etc to reduce the amount of books need to carry for interactive lessons etc. My biggest problem is that I know our local secondary school insists that it has to be an apple Ipad. Now you can't even use an existing device you have to buy one fro wiggle

http://www.colaisteca.ie/index.php/parents/ipad-information/information-for-parents-of-new-entrants-2017-2018/

scamalert

ive seen lidl/aldi had sale few weeks back looking at brochure you'd dress up kid and get all supplies for mere 30-40 quid if your going all out, now if parents are illiterate broke class who wanna keep up with the Joneses then stupidity will raise the cost ten fold.

^ the tablet example is great marketing scheme, since id bet if you were even to ask teachers or whoever pushes that scheme whats the difference between apple and android they wouldn't have a freaking clue.Sadly been around education system and people pushing such stuff are most illiterate people youd meet..

Dravokivich

If they need my kid to have an iPad, I'll rent one of'em. I'm not purchasing one, that they restrict and/or monitor.

meeeeh

Radio_Fan_738 wrote: »

Homeschooling is the way to go, public schools exist to brainwash children into becoming compliant sheep.

They also offer them possibility to meet their peers and make friendships for life. Besides who says homeschooled kids are not brainwashed only by their parents in that instance.

Personally if I wanted to teach I would become a teacher. I don't. It doesn't mean I have no interest my kids education, it means I am happy for someone else to do the donkey work.

Steve F

Dravokivich wrote: »

If they need my kid to have an iPad, I'll rent one of'em. I'm not purchasing one, that they restrict and/or monitor.

Still can't understand WHY it has to be iPad/Tablet
Kindles are the same/better than paper books and can be picked up for 50-60 euros??

Permabear

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Ger Roe

Steve F wrote: »

Still can't understand WHY it has to be iPad/Tablet
Kindles are the same/better than paper books and can be picked up for 50-60 euros??

Because the school and their self appointed supplier/trainer/technical adviser company says so.... simple.

The Dept has no central implementation policy or influence over how schools decide to do things.

Your choice as a parent is to comply, or place your children elsewhere. It was much the same approach with the uniform costs argument, take it or leave it. Not enough parents actually try to do anything about it to make a change. The local board of management holds all the power.

In my case I have heard parents talk about how they are unhappy, but very few go to the bother of asking for a meeting with the principle, or contacting the department. That is why the schools are so sure that they can carry on regardless.

No one wants to single out their kid by not coughing up for the Ipad or having them identified as potential trouble because their parents dared to argue.

Dravokivich

Ger Roe wrote: »

The Dept has no central implementation policy or influence over how schools decide to do things.

They should do though. Schools should be following their guide lines. We shouldn't accept something the schools are doing outside of that. if the Dept haven't done anything to support eLearning, except for basic usage of computers, schools, should not be implementing such solutions.

freshpopcorn

My parents were never overly well off but back to school costs were never an issue. You buy a uniform or two a pair of shoes. Which will last year for the year.
I got the more expensive one because we always found the cheaper one's went shabby in no time.
Books in primary were bought new or second hand. Secondary books were rented. Copies/Biro's pencils.
We had a voluntary contribution in Secondary school. I generally had a nice atmosphere in school. It was always clean and warm. The contribution was meant to go towards the running of the school and I think it did. Most people paid it. Some people paid a section or it or in installments. I know a good few teachers now and the people who complain about paying anything generally have good cars/holidays etc but everything in school should be free.
I was in a shop lately and I heard a woman giving out about the cost recently of going back to school. I know if I was the child I would have felt really guilty because I was being such a bother.

JupiterKid

It's threads like these that make me grateful that I don't have any children. The costs associated with children are enormous.

retro:electro

Radio_Fan_738 wrote: »

Homeschooling is the way to go, public schools exist to brainwash children into becoming compliant sheep.

Cockapoo. Sure you could be teaching your kid any old sh!te at home. You're also depriving them of the opportunity to flourish socially and engage with children their age. It's not just formal education that helps children intellectually develop, there are so many other factors that a regulated system like school can include which benefits a growing child far more than sitting at home can.

beauf

Shinbin223 wrote: »

...
I definitely think this is more of a news story that's trotted out every year at the same time, and is grossly exaggerated by the media.

I'm somewhere in the middle. Certainly costs a lot more than you are suggesting, but not as much (usually) as the press says either. But I would not be surprised if it reached 1000 in some places.

I'm sure a lot comes down the the schools policies, how they deal with secondhand books, Tablets, uniforms, changes in books from year to year. if you have kids who can pass down uniforms. If teachers don't reuse books.

beauf

Steve F wrote: »

Still can't understand WHY it has to be iPad/Tablet
Kindles are the same/better than paper books and can be picked up for 50-60 euros??

The software can be iPad only.

Also they are used more as multimedia devices not simply eReaders.
They have interactive elements and can display projects on protectors and similar.

You actually buy into a books, iPad, insurance, software package. At least that was what was in one school I looked at.

buried

This is no good. If this money racket is allowed to continue it's going to have a serious detrimental effect on education as a whole. If parents start to resent the spiraling cost of education, it's going to make them resent the whole education process and put even more pressure on their kids to do well. If kids right from the start see their own parents resent and become stressed with this yearly back to school money racket, what kind of negative message is that going to be sending to the kids? Kids aren't stupid, they're smart enough to pick up what's going on in their lives without going to school. This is seriously bad stuff for the future. I know people who tell me it's costing them over 2 grand to send their kids to go back, they tell me this $hit right in front of their kids, and the poor kids stand there looking down at the ground as if this was somehow their fault for even existing! It's f**ked up and it's all down to nothing but consume consume consume and the greedy twats in the racket behind it.

beauf

In one school I was at a meeting in the cost of the iPad was over 1000 for the oldest model you could buy with the package .

When asked about the affordability the credit union was the solution offered. I was against it from a results stand point. But I was staggered by the costs that were mentioned without blinking an eye.

imme

mahamageehad wrote: »

To be fair, a family friend has a kid starting secondary in a few weeks in Kilkenny.
All kids were told that they had to cough up €600 for a tablet that would be used as their books for the year. Now, to be fair, I think that will last the entire length of school but it's still a big first expense.

The uniform came in at just over €300 - parents were informed by letter that the uniforms had to be "official" ones purchased in 1 or 2 specified local shops. That was for the skirt, jumper, 2 blouses and gym gear. There was a "optional" school jacket for another €70 that they didn't take.

That's all before things like voluntary contributions, lunch boxes, stationary, school bag etc. Now, I know that the next kid will be less expensive when they get to that school in 2 years as there'll be hand-me-downs, but it's still a lot higher than I would have expected.

"To be fair"
Sorry, but who are you being fair to????

€600 for a kids tablet is ott

€300 for a uniform is just plain wrong

ash23

I've a kid starting third year.

Ime 1st year I'd to pay 100 book rental plus uniform (skirt 45, jumper 50, two shirts 18 each - all crested or strange colours so can't be bought in standard shops), shoes (90), pe top (crested 30) and runners(45), school bag (35), books not on book rental plus copies, calculator, math set, workbooks (~100), school fee (for arts and crafts, photocopies, test fees, insurance -50), voluntary contribution 50, locker and diary 15.
Total for 1st year over 600

Second year - we needed new jumper, new shirts, new jacket, new shoes, new runners as she'd outgrown those. Total of about 250.
She picked HL on some subjects and those books were not available on book rental. Between those and workbooks and refill pads, I probably spent about 200.
Same school fees as above so another 115, no book rental.

Total second year cost under 600

This year she needs shoes and runners (~100 total). Exam papers and novels will be about 50. School fees again 115. 100 for mocks. Exam fees payable in March - no fee given yet.

Total third year 365. Plus whatever the state exam fees will be.

Buying the decent shoes and uniform means it should last longer but they do grow in 1st to 3rd year so certain things have to be replaced.

Brand new uniform next year as they change the uniform after JC. Book rental will be due too.
It's costly enough.

murt101

I've one in primary and one going into secondary...total spend so far is €783. I still have to get shoes for youngest but that can wait another month.
€165 of that is for the primary school child who has book rental.
The remaining €618 was to get child kitted out for secondary, using every available discount I could find and includes 3 second hand books which we got for free from a friend. Haven't been asked for any contributions to secondary school (yet ).
Thankfully they didn't need new schoolbags or runners.
It's all adding up quickly and I can now see how it could reach the €1000 mark for secondary school.