Is an electric an option

Shefwedfan

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I do, you've a good memory. But I also know diesel retails at about 120c/l today and I get between 1200 and 1400km for a 70l tank, so my worst case is just over 700km for €50.

I would never oversell my car.

I have owned the majority of major brand diesels. List stands at (Audi A4/A3/A6, Golf, Passat x 2, Saab 93(loved that car), Mondeo x 2, SMAX, Primera, Octavia, Qashqai).....

None have done 700km for 50 euro. Sorry maybe once to twice when I would go from Cork - Belfast -Dublin on motorway the whole time. I would average on majority of them about 800km per tank and a full tank was always 70+.

Current SMAX just about gets 800km per tank and last time I filled it was 80+.....I cried at the pump that day:P

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have owned the majority of major brand diesels. List stands at (Audi A4/A3/A6, Golf, Passat x 2, Saab 93(loved that car), Mondeo x 2, SMAX, Primera, Octavia, Qashqai).....

None have done 700km for 50 euro. Sorry maybe once to twice when I would go from Cork - Belfast -Dublin on motorway the whole time. I would average on majority of them about 800km per tank and a full tank was always 70+.

Current SMAX just about gets 800km per tank and last time I filled it was 80+.....I cried at the pump that day:P

Not that I like to agree with mr. Oppen, but I have owned diesels that would do that. Before my leaf, I thought in miles. 700km is 434 miles as per google. I've gotten 600 miles out of a golf diesel before, when a tank was 65-70 quid. That - in my lazy man maths of 600 miles*50/70 gives me 428 miles fo 50 quid. Or damn near to 700km

When I had diesels I drove them as eco as possible due to huge miles and even 5 mpg difference on 40k miles a year is a large saving.

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have owned the majority of major brand diesels. List stands at (Audi A4/A3/A6, Golf, Passat x 2, Saab 93(loved that car), Mondeo x 2, SMAX, Primera, Octavia, Qashqai).....

None have done 700km for 50 euro. Sorry maybe once to twice when I would go from Cork - Belfast -Dublin on motorway the whole time. I would average on majority of them about 800km per tank and a full tank was always 70+.

Current SMAX just about gets 800km per tank and last time I filled it was 80+.....I cried at the pump that day:P

700km for €50 at €1.20/ltr is about 47mpg(5.95ltr/100km). I would have got that from the several A4's I had, but as you said only on a long journey.

At the time that I had the A4's, diesel was a lot more expensive and I remember handing just shy of €100 to fill it!

oppenheimer1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I have owned the majority of major brand diesels. List stands at (Audi A4/A3/A6, Golf, Passat x 2, Saab 93(loved that car), Mondeo x 2, SMAX, Primera, Octavia, Qashqai).....

None have done 700km for 50 euro. Sorry maybe once to twice when I would go from Cork - Belfast -Dublin on motorway the whole time. I would average on majority of them about 800km per tank and a full tank was always 70+.

Current SMAX just about gets 800km per tank and last time I filled it was 80+.....I cried at the pump that day:P

The car I've used for my figures is a 2.0l HDI. I drive from full to near empty and always reset the trip meter after filling so I have a very good idea of the fuel economy I get.

Ones mileage may vary of course depending on driving style and mix but I usually come in around 1300km/tank

1532km/tank was the most I ever got iirc, but that had me intentionally driving carefully on long spins so is atypical. Occasionally had lower measured consumption than that again on individual trips but not on an entire tank.

unkel

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

1532km/tank was the most I ever got iirc, but that had me intentionally driving carefully on long spins

That's some hypermiling! €70 at €1.20 for diesel means you used 58.4l, so you managed 3.8l/100km, or 74MPG

With the same driving style, you'd have gotten close to a quarter of that in an Ioniq (so 4 fill ups @ €2 incl charging losses). Total cost about €8 which is quite a bit cheaper than the €70 you paid

KCross

Back to the Op....

If I cut through the figures...

The Op is spending €70/wk to do a 115km round trip 7 days a week and faffing about.

So, about 800km for €70 (7.3ltr/100km, maybe better) and about 40k km's per year?

Are those figures about right @freddie1970?

If yes, and assuming you buy a 2nd hand UK imported 2016 30kWh Leaf for €17k your fuel savings will be as follows:

Assumptions

• 40k km's
• Diesel @ €1.20/ltr
• Current diesel is doing about 6.5-7ltr/100km
• Night rate electricity @ 7c/kWh
• Leaf efficiency @ 17kWh/100km since you mentioned regional roads and including charger losses
• All home charging

Diesel Costs --> €3120 (6.5*1.2*400)
Electricity --> €476 (0.07*17*400)

Fuel Saving: €2644 per year

You now need to factor in additional depreciation of the newer car vs keeping the older one going. Thats a pure guessing game that only you can do as you know what your current car is costing you in maintenance.

And add in the ~€600 for the purchase and install of the home charge point. Thats a once off cost so you can spread that out over, say, 7 years if you want to do a per year cost analysis.


@freddie1970, please correct any assumptions I've made there but I think that is roughly where it will be for you.

Also bear in mind that you will save more than just your diesel. In nearly all cases of the users on here they will tell you (me included) that when only one car is required its the EV will always be taken which means you will, without thinking, shift some of the mileage from your wifes car onto the EV as well, further increasing the savings and reducing the maintenance on that car.

Soarer

KCross wrote: »

Back to the Op....

If I cut through the figures...

The Op is spending €70/wk to do a 115km round trip 7 days a week and faffing about.

So, about 800km for €70 (7.3ltr/100km, maybe better) and about 40k km's per year?

Are those figures about right @freddie1970?

If yes, and assuming you buy a 2nd hand UK imported 2016 30kWh Leaf for €17k your fuel savings will be as follows:

Assumptions

• 40k km's
• Diesel @ €1.20/ltr
• Current diesel is doing about 6.5-7ltr/100km
• Night rate electricity @ 7c/kWh
• Leaf efficiency @ 17kWh/100km since you mentioned regional roads and including charger losses
• All home charging

Diesel Costs --> €3120 (6.5*1.2*400)
Electricity --> €476 (0.07*17*400)

Fuel Saving: €2644 per year

You now need to factor in additional depreciation of the newer car vs keeping the older one going. Thats a pure guessing game that only you can do as you know what your current car is costing you in maintenance.

@freddie1970, please correct any assumptions I've made there but I think that is roughly where it will be for you.

Also bear in mind that you will save more than just your diesel. In nearly all cases of the users on here they will tell you (me included) that when only one car is required its the EV will always be taken which means you will, without thinking, shift some of the mileage from your wifes car onto the EV as well, further increasing the savings and reducing the maintenance on that car.

Yup, and lower maintenance, lower road tax, lower insurance.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Fuel Saving: €2644 per year

Don't forget the chape tax

OP's car is 11 years old, so still on the old regime. Presuming it's a 2l, then it's €710 vs €120 for the EV

And a 11 year old diesel car doing 40k km per year, is quite likely to have expensive maintenance done (on top of two full services per year). Timing belts, EGR, DMF, DPF, injectors, etc. None of this maintenance is required on an EV

Total saving per year is easily more than the depreciation if he switched to the 1 year old 30kWh Leaf. So OP gets to own and drive a 1 year old car and saves money compared to keep driving his 11 year old car. No brainer :cool:

bk

KCross wrote: »

Also bear in mind that you will save more than just your diesel. In nearly all cases of the users on here they will tell you (me included) that when only one car is required its the EV will always be taken which means you will, without thinking, shift some of the mileage from your wifes car onto the EV as well, further increasing the savings and reducing the maintenance on that car.

One word of warning. Many folks here who have done the same as you are planning, getting an EV for themselves and leaving their partner on the Diesel have quickly found that their partner falls in love with how easy and nice the EV is to drive compared to an old Diesel and ends up stealing it a lot of the time

unkel

If ever there was a case to be made for a 2 EV household, this is the case

isnottheword

freddie1970 wrote: »

.my best option would be a second hand leaf but i think they are very small looking

You need to experience that at first hand. They are surprisingly spacious (as they're higher and due to the design of the back 'bench type' seat).


Do you have the ability to charge at work? If no dedicated charge points, would work facilitate you using a 3 pin granny charger (EVSE) that can simply be plugged in to a regular socket at work?

If you can make that work, then the 24kw could be an option for much smaller money. It's difficult enough to get a 30kw at a reasonable price point just yet.

oppenheimer1

unkel wrote: »

That's some hypermiling! €70 at €1.20 for diesel means you used 58.4l, so you managed 3.8l/100km, or 74MPG

With the same driving style, you'd have gotten close to a quarter of that in an Ioniq (so 4 fill ups @ €2 incl charging losses). Total cost about €8 which is quite a bit cheaper than the €70 you paid

You'll need to check your maths I'm afraid. 70l not €70, so 4.5l/100km. It's not exceptional economy and it's a fairly boring way to drive. I have gotten down to close to 3.8l/100km on individual trips, but it's tortuous so I rarely drive like that. I don't think it's particularly good for the car either.

I don't doubt and never questioned that electric is far cheaper (although much of the differential is tax).

Just on whether this should be a two EV household I'm not 100% sure it could be. Since both cars would be driven from full to empty every day, would both cars be able to charge at the same time on a regular domestic supply? It would almost surely happen that it would be required in a household with their kind of kilometers semi regularly.

I suppose, clever timing and big chargers might overcome the issue, but it's something to think about

Shefwedfan

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You'll need to check your maths I'm afraid. 70l not €70, so 4.5l/100km. It's not exceptional economy and it's a fairly boring way to drive. I have gotten down to close to 3.8l/100km on individual trips, but it's tortuous so I rarely drive like that. I don't think it's particularly good for the car either.

I don't doubt and never questioned that electric is far cheaper (although much of the differential is tax).

Just on whether this should be a two EV household I'm not 100% sure it could be. Since both cars would be driven from full to empty every day, would both cars be able to charge at the same time on a regular domestic supply? It would almost surely happen that it would be required in a household with their kind of kilometers semi regularly.

I suppose, clever timing and big chargers might overcome the issue, but it's something to think about

I didn't think the OP said they would change both cars

oppenheimer1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I didn't think the OP said they would change both cars

I know, but I was responding to Unkels point about them being an ideal candidate for a 2 EV household.

There is one poster here with 2EVs but I don't think he has two chargers (I stand to be corrected on that point).

It's an interesting point to raise as many on the early adopters will be thinking of becoming 2EV households. It would be good to identify potential issues.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Just on whether this should be a two EV household I'm not 100% sure it could be. Since both cars would be driven from full to empty every day, would both cars be able to charge at the same time on a regular domestic supply?

Yes, they could.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I suppose, clever timing and big chargers might overcome the issue, but it's something to think about

On the contrary, its smaller chargers you need if its a standard domestic connection you have.

If you have two EV's pulling 7kW's each you will blow the ESB fuse in a standard domestic connection.

If you have 2 EV's pulling 3.3kW's each (i.e. smaller chargers) you are well within the limits of the domestic supply and you will get 3x9=27kWh into each car each night which is close to 100% and you won't be coming home with 0% every night so there should be no issue with fully charging 2 EV's simultaneously on night rate.

The gotcha is if you have to leave early in the morning for your commute it means you have to turn on the chargers before night rate starts to ensure it is fully charged before you leave for work.


Another alternative is a load sharing charge point like Tesla provide or another option is increase your ESB supply(which costs €1169) from 12kVA to 16kVA .
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=102576324&postcount=8
https://www.esbnetworks.ie/docs/default-source/publications/esb-networks-dac-statement-of-charges.pdf?sfvrsn=16 (Page 5)

Plenty options to charge two EV's together. More than do-able.

freddie1970

Yeah we would need to charge both at same time sometimes as she may get one eventually ...one problem is that i will be starting shift work in a few months sp there will be sometimes id need to charge during the day

KCross

freddie1970 wrote: »

Yeah we would need to charge both at same time sometimes as she may get one eventually ...one problem is that i will be starting shift work in a few months sp there will be sometimes id need to charge during the day

You need to start looking at Solar PV so as well! :D

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

You need to start looking at Solar PV so as well! :D

I know this is a little OT but I've wondered about that, and domestic storage. With say 50kwh domestic storage I wonder what kind of gear would be required to turn that into a domestic FCP.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I know this is a little OT but I've wondered about that, and domestic storage. With say 50kwh domestic storage I wonder what kind of gear would be required to turn that into a domestic FCP.

It was tongue in cheek.... the gear required makes no financial sense at the moment.

You're looking at about €6k for a 14kWh Tesla Powerwall
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall

And then add on the Solar PV panels and associated equipment. All in, probably around the €10k mark.

oppenheimer1

KCross wrote: »

It was tongue in cheek.... the gear required makes no financial sense at the moment.

You're looking at about €6k for a 14kWh Tesla Powerwall
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/powerwall

And then add on the Solar PV panels and associated equipment.

One hopes the price will fall, though that's not guaranteed as has been seen with hard-drives.

I suppose my question was on the technical feasibility of converting a domestic storage battery into a HVDC supply. Domestic storage as a buffer will probably be the answer to multi car household charging.

Way down the line and apologies to the OP for going OT

bk

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

One hopes the price will fall, though that's not guaranteed as has been seen with hard-drives.

Huh?! HDD prices have absolutely plummeted and continue to do so. I recently picked up an 8TB external for an insanely reasonable price.

oppenheimer1

bk wrote: »

Huh?! HDD prices have absolutely plummeted and continue to do so. I recently picked up an 8TB external for an insanely reasonable price.

Only relatively recently. HDD prices went through a period of stagnation of relatively elevated prices.

The excuse was a major factory in Thailand was destroyed in a flood. All an aside though.

Orebro

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

One hopes the price will fall, though that's not guaranteed as has been seen with hard-drives.

What do the price of hard drives have to do with batteries? You may as well mention the price of sausages.

RootX

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Only relatively recently. HDD prices went through a period of stagnation of relatively elevated prices.

The excuse was a major factory in Thailand was destroyed in a flood. All an aside though.

https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-cost-per-gigabyte/
It depends on your definition of 'relatively recently' I suppose

I'm in the same boat myself OP, spending ~250 euro on petrol per month, commuting 90-100km daily. I'm leaning towards a 2nd hand leaf, if and when the prices of the 30KW fall at around the 10K mark.

I just can't justify I suppose spending 10s of thousands now and only see the benefit in 3-4 years time, ideally I'd like to start breaking even after the first year.

bk

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Only relatively recently. HDD prices went through a period of stagnation of relatively elevated prices.

The excuse was a major factory in Thailand was destroyed in a flood. All an aside though.

The flood in Thailand wasn't an excuse, it took out 40% of all HDD manufacturing capacity! So yes, prices spiked then, but since then continue to decline.

cros13

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I know this is a little OT but I've wondered about that, and domestic storage. With say 50kwh domestic storage I wonder what kind of gear would be required to turn that into a domestic FCP.

The problem there is that your domestic storage needs to be able to discharge quick enough to rapid charge, you also need to regulate the voltage fed to the EV.

A €6.5k 13.2kWh can discharge (through the onboard AC inverter) at ~5kW sustained (7kW peak). That's almost uniquely high discharge for a domestic battery (Moixa's home battery for example can only output 430W AC or ~500W DC) So to hit 45-50KW you need 9-10 powerwalls, even if you directly tap DC from the powerwall.

It's actually way cheaper/smarter to buy 2-3 powerwalls to feed domestic use and overnight charging plus a higher MIC single-phase or three-phase grid connection plus a wallmount 22kW DC rapid (~€6k).

freddie1970 wrote: »

Yeah we would need to charge both at same time sometimes as she may get one eventually ...one problem is that i will be starting shift work in a few months sp there will be sometimes id need to charge during the day

One option is smarter charging. I have several EVs (and my extended family is up to 9 EVs now total) and I use load sharing chargepoints in several places for multi-EV charging. Tesla's wall connector works fine with any Type 2 EV (bar the Renault Zoe), you can install up to four with bell wire between the chargepoints, set one as master and the rest to slave and set the maximum combined power you want them to draw on the master. They then dynamically allocate the available power as the cars charge.

BMW's Wallbox Connects can do the same. However BMW uses an external meter before your ESB meter to determine total household load, power from local microgeneration and available power and can allocate all available capacity to the chargepoints. It can even adjust charging based on next departure time based on individual driver's online calendars and adjust charging based predicted production for local PV or wind, compensating automatically with grid power if required. Though the catch is that one wallbox connect costs more than two Tesla Wall Connectors.

KCross

RootX wrote: »

I'm in the same boat myself OP, spending ~250 euro on petrol per month, commuting 90-100km daily. I'm leaning towards a 2nd hand leaf, if and when the prices of the 30KW fall at around the 10K mark.

For an 30kWh SV(Acenta) in the UK that might be around 182/191 for that price point. They are making £13k right now.

Its just a guess but hard to tell with Brexit, sterling and Leaf II about to be announced.

RootX wrote: »

I just can't justify I suppose spending 10s of thousands now and only see the benefit in 3-4 years time, ideally I'd like to start breaking even after the first year.

Not sure I understand your 3-4yrs comment. If you are saving €2k+ on fuel each year are you not saving on year 1?

Or are you just referring to initial capital outlay and not working it out as an average per year?

Of course, the most value is in buying 2nd hand anyway as you can remove the majority of the depreciation.

unkel

RootX wrote: »

commuting 90-100km daily

Which is it, 90 or 100km? If 90, surely a 24kWh gen 1.5 Leaf would do that even in winter and they're available for well under €10k already.

Orebro

unkel wrote: »

Which is it, 90 or 100km? If 90, surely a 24kWh gen 1.5 Leaf would do that even in winter and they're available for well under €10k already.

Would do 90km in any conditions absolutely

Shefwedfan

bk wrote: »

The flood in Thailand wasn't an excuse, it took out 40% of all HDD manufacturing capacity! So yes, prices spiked then, but since then continue to decline.

To be 100% correct. It wasn't just Thailand. The Tsunami in Japan also meant there was a critical shortage of elements required in the HDD.

As both issues happened within a short period of each other this had a knock on affect to the manufacturing.