How are poor performers dealt with in your job?

Avatar MIA

steddyeddy wrote: »

I won't work harder than I need to for a very low wage with no real prospects.

That's fair enough, but they'd be rare enough. Even, say, a two person business, owner and minimum wage worker. If the min wage worker can contribute to the success of the company then opportunities may arise.

Aongus Von Bismarck

I work in Frankfurt, Germany. There's a common myth that it is notoriously difficult for an employer to dismiss an employee in Germany. That is incorrect. Like Ireland; we've had issues with heavily unionised workers in our transport system looking for wage increases in an era where automation is fast about to make these roles obsolete.


There is a very different system in the banking industry. You appreciate being assigned the role you are given, and if you're deemed surplus to requirements, then you walk away with a taciturn nature that indicates that you understand why this decision has been made. I've been involved in difficult discussions where we've decided that some of the elder statesmen of the organisation were deemed to be no longer meeting the strategic needs of our strategy. These discussions are never easy, but they have to be made.

razorblunt

I've only seen one colleague fired and I believe he made 3 big boo boos, the last was sending code home after been warned for doing so once already.
Usually though you hear people are being managed to try and get to good performance, very rarely, if ever this leads to a firing. Usually folk will leave of their own accord during that process.

I once worked with someone, who made the most idiotic mistakes I've ever seen, was grossly incompetent and it was generally accepted it would take the best part of a year to fire them going through the proper process. Thankfully he left of his own accord.

byhookorbycrook

Quandary wrote: »

I'm a primary school teacher so in my line of work people who don't pull their weight get cushy positions in learning support where they can cause as little damage as possible while they fester and rot their way into retirement.

Unfortunately, the few unlucky kids that need learning support will suffer

It's an amazing job but the lack of accountability is what I hate most about teaching. Principals have no real power to deal with bad/lazy teachers. I work hard to do my best but it's difficult to keep going the extra mile when you see such laziness around you

Really?Because I'm a Learning Support Teacher and it's certainly not cushy in our school. Perhaps you should actually try the job you think is a handy number.
Children are not "unlucky" to need learning support, perhaps the unlucky ones are those whose class teacher doesn't work in a collaborative way with the SEN team.

Who writes the IPLPs in your school?Liaises with NEPS/HSE/SENO/SLTs and OTs? Who carries out diagnostic tests such as the WRAT, orders and organizes the Drumcondra/VRT/NVT/MIST tests? Is there in-class support in your school?


How are these "unlucky" children chosen for extra support- as class teacher, you have primary responsibility for all the children in your class. Do you differentiate and open a continuum file for any child that needs a bit of support at classroom support level? If a parent wants suggestions as how to support their child at home, do you meet the parents of those children alone and without advice from your colleagues?

And if your staff members are so poor, why do you continue to work in such a place- surely as such a diligent teacher it is your duty to raise all of these issues and help overcome them?

I would love you to try and do my cushy job some time.

McCrack

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Really?Because I'm a Learning Support Teacher and it's certainly not cushy in our school. Perhaps you should actually try the job you think is a handy number.
Children are not "unlucky" to need learning support, perhaps the unlucky ones are those whose class teacher doesn't work in a collaborative way with the SEN team.

Who writes the IPLPs in your school?Liaises with NEPS/HSE/SENO/SLTs and OTs? Who carries out diagnostic tests such as the WRAT, orders and organizes the Drumcondra/VRT/NVT/MIST tests? Is there in-class support in your school?


How are these "unlucky" children chosen for extra support- as class teacher, you have primary responsibility for all the children in your class. Do you differentiate and open a continuum file for any child that needs a bit of support at classroom support level? If a parent wants suggestions as how to support their child at home, do you meet the parents of those children alone and without advice from your colleagues?

And if your staff members are so poor, why do you continue to work in such a place- surely as such a diligent teacher it is your duty to raise all of these issues and help overcome them?

I would love you to try and do my cushy job some time.

Relax

MadDog76

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Probably because successful business owners aren't morons.

And neither are employees ........... they ain't gonna break their back to make somebody else rich if they don't feel financially appreciated themselves.

Business owners who can't understand why their employees are just doing the bare minimum whilst being paid minimum wage are actually morons ..........

Avatar MIA

MadDog76 wrote: »

And neither are employees ........... they ain't gonna break their back to make somebody else rich if they don't feel financially appreciated themselves.

Business owners who can't understand why their employees are just doing the bare minimum whilst being paid minimum wage are actually morons ..........

If you're on minimum wage you're performing a function that's not critical to the company. Nobody in my company in on minimum wage, nowhere near it and there are poor performers. Go figure.

However, I'm not with the company long and there has already been changes. There will most likely be more.

However, nobody, not even snowflakes should be put on higher wages in the hope that will improve their performance. In fact studies have shown that salary is a poor motivator.

However, and this really isn't rocket science, good performing employees should be rewarded. But, the good performance has to come first. Otherwise it's a lottery, and any business worthy of the name will not play a lottery when it comes to staff advancement.

Rumple Stillson

Perhaps not directly answering the question but seeing the reply about poor performers being promoted to management reminded me of the Peter Principle.

"The Peter principle is a concept in management theory formulated by Laurence J. Peter and published in 1969. It states that the selection of a candidate for a position is based on the candidate's performance in their current role, rather than on abilities relevant to the intended role. Thus, employees only stop being promoted once they can no longer perform effectively, and "managers rise to the level of their incompetence."

Might explain why so many companies and agencies are poorly run.

Avatar MIA

Rumple Stillson wrote: »

Perhaps not directly answering the question but seeing the reply about poor performers being promoted to management reminded me of the Peter Principle.

"The Peter principle is a concept in management theory formulated by Laurence J. Peter and published in 1969. It states that the selection of a candidate for a position is based on the candidate's performance in their current role, rather than on abilities relevant to the intended role. Thus, employees only stop being promoted once they can no longer perform effectively, and "managers rise to the level of their incompetence."

Might explain why so many companies and agencies are poorly run.

An interesting concept, but applies to everybody. And people that don't rise to management are incompetent in their current roles. So, yeah, everyone is incompetent... and yet the world keeps on turning.

nice_guy80

Quandary wrote: »

I'm a primary school teacher so in my line of work people who don't pull their weight get cushy positions in learning support where they can cause as little damage as possible while they fester and rot their way into retirement.

Unfortunately, the few unlucky kids that need learning support will suffer

It's an amazing job but the lack of accountability is what I hate most about teaching. Principals have no real power to deal with bad/lazy teachers. I work hard to do my best but it's difficult to keep going the extra mile when you see such laziness around you

that's a highly insulting post

the learning support teachers in many schools are the most qualified and well trained teachers many holding masters that they complete in their own time

learning support teachers usually have to try and help the weaker pupils left behind by classroom teachers.

why the hate towards your fellow staff?

RoboRat

nice_guy80 wrote: »

that's a highly insulting post

the learning support teachers in many schools are the most qualified and well trained teachers many holding masters that they complete in their own time

learning support teachers usually have to try and help the weaker pupils left behind by classroom teachers.

why the hate towards your fellow staff?

Agreed, my wife is in learning support and she has taken some of the roughest kids with severe social issues and transformed them. There are some that go into learning support as the see it as 'cushy' but from what I have seen, it's far from it and they don't stay there.

Quandary

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Really?Because I'm a Learning Support Teacher and it's certainly not cushy in our school. Perhaps you should actually try the job you think is a handy number.
Children are not "unlucky" to need learning support, perhaps the unlucky ones are those whose class teacher doesn't work in a collaborative way with the SEN team.

Who writes the IPLPs in your school?Liaises with NEPS/HSE/SENO/SLTs and OTs? Who carries out diagnostic tests such as the WRAT, orders and organizes the Drumcondra/VRT/NVT/MIST tests? Is there in-class support in your school?


How are these "unlucky" children chosen for extra support- as class teacher, you have primary responsibility for all the children in your class. Do you differentiate and open a continuum file for any child that needs a bit of support at classroom support level? If a parent wants suggestions as how to support their child at home, do you meet the parents of those children alone and without advice from your colleagues?

And if your staff members are so poor, why do you continue to work in such a place- surely as such a diligent teacher it is your duty to raise all of these issues and help overcome them?

I would love you to try and do my cushy job some time.

You are misinterpreting my post. I worked in learning support for 3 years and worked damn hard at it. I had a carefully planned IPLP or IEP for each child too. Was responsible for administering/correcting/digitising all standardised testing. I actually find mainstream easier and more enjoyable personally, but the fact remains that it is easier for a lazy or incompetent teacher to get away with doing even less in a learning support role. I've watched quite a few of them in my time as a teacher. Coming up with reasons/excuses not to take their groups, no IPLP or even IEP in some cases.

Also I meant unlucky for the poor children that are assigned to a lazy or incompetent LS teacher.

In our school (DEIS), any child below the 10th percentile in their sigma/Drumcondra automatically receive learning support time. In my class teaching I ensure to differentiate and adapt the curriculum for these kids also and we have detailed hangovers each year for each child so that the next teacher can continue relatively seamlessly.

look, fwiw, the two best teachers I've worked with were both learning support too and I probably learned more from them than anyone else so far in my teaching career. They were/are incredibly dedicated and experienced teachers and the schools were/are lucky to have them. Unfortunately the worst teachers I've worked with were mostly working in LS and had been for some time and it appeared to me that the school/principal was unable to do anything about their poor performance. Those teachers just continued to contribute little or nothing and scraped by, doing the bare minimum.

Also, as for raising these issues in my school? I'm working in my current school only 2 years and all of the offending teachers have been there for over 10 years. If I was to come out and say what I really wanted to say in staff meetings I would be ostracised. These teachers carry a lot of influence and are nigh on untouchable. I think you know what I mean by that, particularly if you have been teaching for a long time.

This isn't the thread or forum to continue this discussion as it's vearing off topic but suffice to say, in my experience as a teacher in 4 different schools over the last 8 years this has been the case.

erica74

I worked in the private sector for 15 years and poor performers were given warnings, given additional training, given "talks", shouted at, sacked on the spot (for minor matters and major matters), told to finish out the week and leave (again, for minor and major matters), put on rolling probation for over 12 months, sometimes a combination of all of the above.
And yes it's not all legal and it's not all proper but, in my experience, private sector employers will do whatever they want. Sure, you can take a case against them and all that stuff but who has the time or money for such things. If you leave a job, you usually want to forget about it and move on, not spend a year or usually much longer, fighting a legal battle.

Now, I work in the public sector and poor performers are moved around, covered up for, excuses made for, no disciplinary actions taken. Now, I'm sure this isn't the same for all of the public sector, however, it is what I have seen.

Jawgap

"three strikes and you're out" is the policy in our place - though that's not as drastic as it sounds.......because you're not sacked just excluded from the bonus pot for the subsequent quarter!

We are all, to a greater or lesser degree, on contracts so I'd imagine persistent poor performance would result in your contract not being renewed.

In practical terms, if someone is performing poorly they get 'counselled' by their manager and an "improvement pathway" is identified or the issue causing their lack of performance is identified and addressed. As long as they stay on the path, they're grand!

They haven't done it here, but in other offices your role will be re-defined so it reflects your level of commitment/performance.....which is a way of demoting you on paper, even if it doesn't lead to a loss of core remuneration......but try explaining to your next potential employer why you started as a 'manager' but ended up as an 'analyst' or 'client liaison'.

Cee-Jay-Cee

In my workplace it's ignored and if it is tackled the person usually kicks up a stink or involves their solicitor and upper management are so utterly spineless they end up dropping it conpletely and/or compensating the person in some way for the unfair way they've been treated. It's a complete joke.

jmayo

In working in various companies and being contracting into some major public sector bodies, you can see terrible personnel management.

In some companies people are just sidetracked, sent off to other departments/subsidiaries out of the way.
It is just moving the problem along and someone else gets stuck with them.

I have also seen companies where people are escorted off the premises immediately.

I have seen some companies, in private sector and non unionised, which bucks the idea that it is only public sector where slackers are tolerated.
Work is taken off incompetents, other workers are brought in to hold their hands or correct their fookups and the biggest result is the morale of all the other staff starts hitting the floor and apathy ensues for most who don't see the point of breaking their balls when Jimmy and Helen can get away with murder.

I do agree with Peter's Principle to a certain degree as long termers or the initial staff there are often promoted as a reward and left in place even though they are abysmal at their new role.

Also I learned a long time ago that breaking your balls because maybe your hard work and dedication are ely going to be rewarded is being an eejit in a lot of cases.

That might happen in some organisations, but in others you are wasting your time.
You need to quickly figure out the politics, ethos and makeup of an organisation before you go wasting your life.
I know that is cynical, but I would bet a fair few people would back me up on that opinion.

In the end of the day everyone, and yes I mean everyone, is replaceable.



Also I hate this trite shyte that if you reckon you are not being paid enough or there aren't promotion prospects then just simply move.
That is simple enough if you haven't families and mortgages in tow, where you are tied into not alone financial commitments, but also time commitments.

At this stage in my life I also realise things like illness benefit and paid long term sick leave come into the equation.
You may not have access to these for a period of time after you join a new company.

Bredabe

Quandary wrote: »

I'm a primary school teacher so in my line of work people who don't pull their weight get cushy positions in learning support where they can cause as little damage as possible while they fester and rot their way into retirement.

Unfortunately, the few unlucky kids that need learning support will suffer

It's an amazing job but the lack of accountability is what I hate most about teaching. Principals have no real power to deal with bad/lazy teachers. I work hard to do my best but it's difficult to keep going the extra mile when you see such laziness around you

That's been my experience at all levels. As a student with SLD, I was ignored by lots of teachers/lecturers but the latest, one particular teacher ignored every. single. day, every.single.question, every time.

Other students told me I was imaging it(standard response from ppl), ok for them, they were having their questions answered. Went to his senior, who said I would have to talk to original teacher(even tho he has a rep for that kind of behavior and clearly doesn't want to talk to me), no shock when I found out a few years later he was promoted to head of dept. Where he can collect higher pay/benefits and have a different explanation for not being prepared for class.

drake70

erica74 wrote: »

I worked in the private sector for 15 years and poor performers were given warnings, given additional training, given "talks", shouted at, sacked on the spot (for minor matters and major matters), told to finish out the week and leave (again, for minor and major matters), put on rolling probation for over 12 months, sometimes a combination of all of the above.
And yes it's not all legal and it's not all proper but, in my experience, private sector employers will do whatever they want. Sure, you can take a case against them and all that stuff but who has the time or money for such things. If you leave a job, you usually want to forget about it and move on, not spend a year or usually much longer, fighting a legal battle.

Now, I work in the public sector and poor performers are moved around, covered up for, excuses made for, no disciplinary actions taken. Now, I'm sure this isn't the same for all of the public sector, however, it is what I have seen.

I think all Government departments are using PIP now

Emperor Qianlong

erica74 wrote: »

Now, I work in the public sector and poor performers are moved around, covered up for, excuses made for, no disciplinary actions taken. Now, I'm sure this isn't the same for all of the public sector, however, it is what I have seen.

There is no incentive in the public sector to discipline people. Its all paid for by tax money so they dont have any understanding of value or efficiency. Just keep quiet and wait for pension time

I dont think this will ever change in Ireland unfortunately.

Aongus Von Bismarck

Aongus Von Bismarck wrote: »

I work in Frankfurt, Germany. There's a common myth that it is notoriously difficult for an employer to dismiss an employee in Germany. That is incorrect. Like Ireland; we've had issues with heavily unionised workers in our transport system looking for wage increases in an era where automation is fast about to make these roles obsolete.


There is a very different system in the banking industry. You appreciate being assigned the role you are given, and if you're deemed surplus to requirements, then you walk away with a taciturn nature that indicates that you understand why this decision has been made. I've been involved in difficult discussions where we've decided that some of the elder statesmen of the organisation were deemed to be no longer meeting the strategic needs of our strategy. These discussions are never easy, but they have to be made.

They weren't meeting the strategic needs of your strategy? Barstewards.

Wanderer2010

Non unionized bosses are out to cause as much grief as possible if they can get away with it. I have never once seen a boss in a non unionized workplace who genuinely wanted to help a poor performer- it was just a ruse in order to write him or her up and sack them as soon as possible.

seachto7

I'm on a "pip" at the moment.

sjb25

[quote="erica74;104369662"
Now, I work in the public sector and poor performers are moved around, covered up for, excuses made for, no disciplinary actions taken. Now, I'm sure this isn't the same for all of the public sector, however, it is what I have seen.[/quote]

I'm public sector aswell and this is my experience also

Worst I've seen is a role was advertised internally for a supervisor in another department couple of days later another email came out changing the job specifications
Just so happens a let's call him non performing team member was now eligible to apply which he was not with the original job spec
Low and behold who got the job
Got rid of him out of our hair tho