Are Saorview ever going to add more channels?

Video

I remember when it first launched , on the wikipedia page there was tons of "future channels" like RTE 3, TV3 HD, TG4 HD etc now that has alll long dissapeared. when you look at what the uk have for free saorview is a joke, and they're looking to increase the license fee lol.

Gerry Wicklow

Long before it ever launched, it was clear that there just isn't a big enough market in Ireland to sustain multiple channels. Add the number of homes that have satellite or cable and what's left on purely terrestrial is very small. That horse had bolted long before the stable was even built.:)

coylemj

In the early days of DTV, was there talk of an alternative basket of digital channels and did the prospective bidders then all pull out?

I think the problem in Ireland is that if you set up an alternative terrestrial TV service, your main viewership is going to be rural viewers with aerials. Being blunt about it, advertisers would see these people as relatively poor, low-spending and elderly - the very people they don't care about.

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

In the early days of DTV, was there talk of an alternative basket of digital channels and did the prospective bidders then all pull out?

I think the problem in Ireland is that if you set up an alternative terrestrial TV service, your main viewership is going to be rural viewers with aerials. Being blunt about it, advertisers would see these people as relatively poor, low-spending and elderly - the very people they don't care about.

That's correct. The first applicant pulled out around the time of the ITV Digital collapse. It was then readvertised about 10 years ago and the same thing happened with two or three bidders pulling out. Hence why RTENL/2RN went it alone with Saorview, pretty much as a replacement for the analogue network and not a whole lot more.

The Cush

These BAI press releases summarises the last time they attempted to award commercial DTT contracts
http://www.bai.ie/en/bai-statement-on-digital-terrestrial-television-dtt-contracts-awards-process/
http://www.bai.ie/en/bai-statement-on-conclusion-of-commercial-dtt-multiplex-licensing-process/

The winning bidder was to be the "digital champion" who would build, sell, promote DTT to the public with the free PSB channels as a bolt-on to a bundle of pay DTT channels. This would be similar to DTT operations in Scandinavia, Netherlands etc.

This is a post I made a few months regarding the failure of the first commercial DTT project back in 2002 when the sole bidder -Its'TV- withdrew - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=103064794#post103064794

Mr.H

Saorview should have teamed up with rte and setanta at the time and became a TV company to rival sky (on a smaller scale) rather than exist in their current non state.

If we funded rte through subscription instead of fees it would have been better. Maybe setanta added would generate interest for the sports side of things. Could attract some small TV stations from the UK to bulk it up.

The Cush

Mr.H wrote: »

Saorview should have teamed up with rte and setanta at the time and became a TV company to rival sky (on a smaller scale) rather than exist in their current non state.

Saorview is RTE's DTT brand that they had to create after the commercial DTT project failed.

RTE were part of the Easy TV consortium bidding for one of the commercial contracts and Setanta were part of the OneVision consortium. With limited capacity a pay DTT operation was a non runner with competition from Sky, UPC and the overspill of the FTA UK channels.

Atlantic Dawn

Any ideas ballpark the costs of adding a channel for a year? I'm kind of surprised Saorview doesn't have a self run infomercial channel that it offers advertisers slots on.

kyeev

A no brainer for me would be the addition of +1 channels for everything on there

Machinehead

Something's gone really wrong with Saorview, don't get me wrong, I was lucky enough to get a colour image during the analogue days. HD availability for all channels on Saorview remains a contentious issue. While the HD variants of some channels or their +1's continue on the Sky digital platform, their conspicuous absence from Saorview raises some questionable business & management decisions. Consider if you will, if all broadcasters except the state broadcaster in the UK decided to abandon their Freeview HD channels & their +1's to boot, I think Freeview would collapse leading to a massive increase in Sky subscriptions. Saorview & the channels on their network really need to get their heads out of the sand & consider providing an adequate service to the viewer. Competition from internet services has increased massively since Saorview's launch & now they risk being left behind in the race to provide a competitive package for the viewer.

Harry Palmr

saorview will probably never be anything more than it is right now. Just getting the Virgin owned channels in HD would be some sort of triumph at this stage.

dxhound2005

Machinehead wrote: »

Consider if you will, if all broadcasters except the state broadcaster in the UK decided to abandon their Freeview HD channels & their +1's to boot, I think Freeview would collapse leading to a massive increase in Sky subscriptions.

After due consideration I cannot figure out why anyone would want to get Sky in that scenario. They could get Freesat instead, or just use a Free to Air satellite receiver.

I didn't know there was a state broadcaster in the UK.

Gerry Wicklow

What I can never get my head around is that RTÉ say they can't afford to run +1s. Yet 2RN (RTÉ with a different hat on) quite happily burn the same electricity running testcards 24/7. Of course there is the other aspect of government meddling, because TV3 whinged so much, leading to the no ads adbreaks on Newsnow.

coylemj

dxhound2005 wrote: »

After due consideration I cannot figure out why anyone would want to get Sky in that scenario. They could get Freesat instead, or just use a Free to Air satellite receiver.

I didn't know there was a state broadcaster in the UK.

BBC?

• Funded by the TV licence
• Run by a board of governors appointed by a Govt. minister

Thurston?

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

What I can never get my head around is that RTÉ say they can't afford to run +1s. Yet 2RN (RTÉ with a different hat on) quite happily burn the same electricity running testcards 24/7.

The testcard data is hardly 'burning electricity' over & above whatever else they'd have to put there to fill the space.

Johnboy1951

Thurston? wrote: »

The testcard data is hardly 'burning electricity' over & above whatever else they'd have to put there to fill the space.

Why have those channels broadcasting at all?
What is the purpose?

Thurston?

I don't know why the hidden channels are there, or care much either, apart from the fact they are a nuisance with receivers that don't hide them.

The Cush

Thurston? wrote: »

apart from the fact they are a nuisance with receivers that don't hide them.

Which may be a reason, to discourage the use of non-Saorview receivers.

Johnboy1951

The Cush wrote: »

Which may be a reason, to discourage the use of non-Saorview receivers.

I guess, by that, they don't show up on Saorview approved receivers ...

Johnboy1951

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I guess, by that, they don't show up on Saorview approved receivers ...

On the Walker combo you can't view them at all, not even by entering the channel number.

Thurston?

The Cush wrote: »

Which may be a reason, to discourage the use of non-Saorview receivers.

Well, you'd want to be easily discouraged, as they're not hard to get rid of, & necessary retunes are pretty rare.

MACHEAD

Even if there is just a black screen, it's still being transmitted at around 150 Kw, and much higher in some regions.  In todays energy conscious world, that's a wanton waste in anyone's book.

Sam Russell

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

What I can never get my head around is that RTÉ say they can't afford to run +1s. Yet 2RN (RTÉ with a different hat on) quite happily burn the same electricity running testcards 24/7. Of course there is the other aspect of government meddling, because TV3 whinged so much, leading to the no ads adbreaks on Newsnow.

Well what you have is a regulator gone rogue under pressure from vested interests.

ComReg set the parameters for Saorview charges which was done following complaints from TV3. The charges are set by usage of bandwidth, sharing the cost among the users. Now TV3 have screwed down their bandwidth (fuzzy vision) to reduce their fees to a minimum. Meanwhile we have two muxes that cost €12 m per year. RTE run four channels, two of the HD which costs them about €8 m. They could fit all their channels onto one mux and let TV3 and TG4 share the other one and pay the full cost - but they could then go HD.

Meanwhile, BAI prevent RTE running RTE NewsNow with advertising and RTE has to show kids programmes on RTE 2 and RTE jr without advertising. However, TV3 are allowed huge number of minutes advertising per hour (twice RTE's allowance).

If RTE were to use more bandwidth, rather than allow it to be burnt off, it would cost them even more money for using their own mux.

RTE is not popular in political circles - look how they refused to pay to have their own faces on their own TV channel.

h7nlrp2v0g5u48

Harry Palmr wrote: »

saorview will probably never be anything more than it is right now. Just getting the Virgin owned channels in HD would be some sort of triumph at this stage.

I agree Saorview is just a dead duck as far as offering more choice and HD content. Until someone steps in and tries to solve the carraige deal issue which I would say is a big obstacle for broadcasters to launch their channels on the Saorview platform I think people who don't have access or can't afford to pay for Sky, Virgin or any other pay tv platform will continue to be left out in the cold regarding channel choice on Saorview.

The Cush

My guess is any new channels on Saorview will be IPTV channels via Saorview Connect.

Thurston?

MACHEAD wrote: »

Even if there is just a black screen, it's still being transmitted at around 150 Kw, and much higher in some regions.  In todays energy conscious world, that's a wanton waste in anyone's book.

Look, the 2nd mux had to be switched on because everything wouldn't fit on a single mux. The only way they can save energy is to convert to DVB-T2, & put everything back on single mux.

And won't a big part of your 150 KW figure be aerial gain, not transmitter power?

mackersdublin

Thurston? wrote: »

Look, the 2nd mux had to be switched on because everything wouldn't fit on a single mux. The only way they can save energy is to convert to DVB-T2, & put everything back on single mux.

And won't a big part of your 150 KW figure be aerial gain, not transmitter power?

Is there any indication that Saorview will move to DVB-T2 in the future?

The Cush

mackersdublin wrote: »

Is there any indication that Saorview will move to DVB-T2 in the future?

No, sufficient capacity available in the current DTT plan and future (2020) DTT replan using the current standard. Maybe if they ever decide to broadcast some channels in UHD then the move to DVB-T2/HEVC would be required.

Mickey Mike

No more channels will be coming to Saorview, that was tried with UTV Ireland. The only thing left is to upgrade as many channels to High Definition end of story.

Macy0161

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

What I can never get my head around is that RTÉ say they can't afford to run +1s. Yet 2RN (RTÉ with a different hat on) quite happily burn the same electricity running testcards 24/7. Of course there is the other aspect of government meddling, because TV3 whinged so much, leading to the no ads adbreaks on Newsnow.

And being forced to retain childrens output on RTE2.

Basically, political intereference and regulators putting commercial competition first is what has hampered saorview's development. I really can't get my head around them even allowing sky a submission in the process when they refuse to be regulated here.

This even comes down to how saorview is seemingly not allowed to advertise the FTA options. The number of people simply unaware that they'd have all the main UK channels for free still staggers me. You can see even sky have coped this with the price difference for NowTV here compared to the UK - in the UK it's about getting the remaining sub free households, here they're walking a tightrope of people realising how much they're paying for is actually free!

The best hope for a proper rival platform is some official tie in/ offering with freesat (an official saorview/ freesat combo), but probably more unlikely now than it's ever been.

Gerry Wicklow

Equally saddening is the number of people who come on here thinking of ditching Sky and think that Saorview is an alternative. Due to, at best vague advertising, they don't understand it doesn't have the UK FTA channels.

winston_1

Video wrote: »

I remember when it first launched , on the wikipedia page there was tons of "future channels" like RTE 3, TV3 HD, TG4 HD etc now that has alll long dissapeared. when you look at what the uk have for free saorview is a joke, and they're looking to increase the license fee lol.

In the UK the licence fee only covers the BBC channels. All the others are commercially funded.
In Ireland I imagine the licence fee only covers RTE. You could try inviting the various commercial channels to come to Saorview.

winston_1

Video wrote: »

I remember when it first launched , on the wikipedia page there was tons of "future channels" like RTE 3, TV3 HD, TG4 HD etc now that has alll long dissapeared. when you look at what the uk have for free saorview is a joke, and they're looking to increase the license fee lol.

In the UK the licence fee only covers the BBC channels. All the others are commercially funded.
In Ireland I imagine the licence fee only covers RTE. You could try inviting the various commercial channels to come to Saorview.

winston_1

Video wrote: »

I remember when it first launched , on the wikipedia page there was tons of "future channels" like RTE 3, TV3 HD, TG4 HD etc now that has alll long dissapeared. when you look at what the uk have for free saorview is a joke, and they're looking to increase the license fee lol.

In the UK the licence fee only covers the BBC channels. All the others are commercially funded.
In Ireland I imagine the licence fee only covers RTE. You could try inviting the various commercial channels to come to Saorview.

decor58

Video wrote:

I remember when it first launched , on the wikipedia page there was tons of "future channels" like RTE 3, TV3 HD, TG4 HD etc now that has alll long dissapeared. when you look at what the uk have for free saorview is a joke, and they're looking to increase the license fee lol.

In France on hols at present, TNT has 30 fta channels, 2 info, 2 promo, 2 news, 1 sport, 3 talk channels ( current affairs). It would be great to have more channels on Saorview but given the size of the French market and it supports 30 fta channels and the overspill of UK tv in Ireland what could we realistically support.

steveon

winston_1 wrote: »

In the UK the licence fee only covers the BBC channels. All the others are commercially funded.
In Ireland I imagine the licence fee only covers RTE. You could try inviting the various commercial channels to come to Saorview.

Tv3 gets 5% of the tv licence fee
and a certain percentage goes to TG4 as well as programming made by rte.

The Cush

steveon wrote: »

Tv3 gets 5% of the tv licence fee

Since when, source for this?

steveon

The Cush wrote: »

Since when, source for this?

Since Aug 2012
€125 of the license fee goes to rte
the remainder is split between others such as tv3
http://www.thejournal.ie/this-is-exactly-how-your-tv-licence-fee-is-used-542836-Aug2012/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/tv3-s-red-rock-awarded-550-000-from-licence-fee-funds-1.2913148

The Cush

steveon wrote: »

Since Aug 2012
€125 of the license fee goes to rte
the remainder is split between others such as tv3
http://www.thejournal.ie/this-is-exactly-how-your-tv-licence-fee-is-used-542836-Aug2012/

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/media-and-marketing/tv3-s-red-rock-awarded-550-000-from-licence-fee-funds-1.2913148

Sound and Vision fund? All broadcasters, incl. RTÉ get a slice of that, no specific allocation to TV3.

Capt'n Midnight

steveon wrote: »

Tv3 gets 5% of the tv licence fee
and a certain percentage goes to TG4 as well as programming made by rte.

They'd get a lot more if they didn't show UK repeats and "talking heads" programs.

Thing is that most of the imports they show are available in HD on free to air satellite anyway. Red Rock was on Channel 5.

Gerry Wicklow

They still haven't figured out when you have the choice of fuzzy vision on Saorview or HD on satellite which one the viewer will choose.

Capt'n Midnight

Are Saorview ever going to add more channels?

Saorview don't add the channels.

It's like asking the Dublin Port Authority if they are adding any new ferries to Liverpool. It's the ferry company that has to decide if they want to use Dublin Port.


Technically speaking the GFA allows stations up north to broadcast down here.



The killer app for Saorview might be a top-up TV type service offering most of the main UK terresterial channels for a tenner a month - how much do SKY or Virgin pay for them ?

A pay TV service that can't offer the most watched UK channels at a price lower than SKY or Virgin can offer is a non-starter.

Unless Saorview offers more then the number of viewers will remain low.

Digifriendly

I live in NI and can receive Saorview but to be honest rarely watch it. Apart from RTE News Now and RTE1+1 and TV3 associates (the latter I do not watch) it seems pretty similar to what I got on analogue pre DSO. Radio stations are all RTE ones. So as my Newstalk FM signal here is iffy I would like it and other commercial stations to be added. Having RTE1HD is a bonus but apart from that I think Saorview is pretty poor fare. I know comparing it to Freeview is like apples and oranges but it could surely have a few more decent channels on it. I guess with Sky/Freesat having such a large takeup in ROI those who control Saorview don't have the incentive to expand its channel list. Nevertheless it could do with a makeover of some sort.

dxhound2005

Digifriendly wrote: »

I live in NI and can receive Saorview but to be honest rarely watch it. Apart from RTE News Now and RTE1+1 and TV3 associates (the latter I do not watch) it seems pretty similar to what I got on analogue pre DSO. Radio stations are all RTE ones. So as my Newstalk FM signal here is iffy I would like it and other commercial stations to be added. Having RTE1HD is a bonus but apart from that I think Saorview is pretty poor fare. I know comparing it to Freeview is like apples and oranges but it could surely have a few more decent channels on it. I guess with Sky/Freesat having such a large takeup in ROI those who control Saorview don't have the incentive to expand its channel list. Nevertheless it could do with a makeover of some sort.

I don't think it is like comparing apples to oranges. Just like the UK the main channels that people watch the most were there before DSO. TV3 is much like ITV/UTV. Do you watch Channel 4 and Channel 5 and their offshoots? Is that the sort of "decent" fare you want or if not what do you want?

Digifriendly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

I don't think it is like comparing apples to oranges. Just like the UK the main channels that people watch the most were there before DSO. TV3 is much like ITV/UTV. Do you watch Channel 4 and Channel 5 and their offshoots? Is that the sort of "decent" fare you want or if not what do you want?

To answer your question and taking your point re Saorview and Freeview there then should be a lot more channels on Saorview. An equivalent of ITV4 for starters with some sport on it and all main channels in HD not just RTE1/2. Some red button options eg. extra sport/entertainment like 601 on Freeview and English language options for TG4's GAA/Rugby coverage similar to S4C in wales and BBC Alba in Scotland. Maybe I should ask you - do you think there should be a wider range of channels on Saorview and if so what should they be?

dxhound2005

The weekly viewing figures from the Sunday Times for the UK show BBC 1 and ITV getting numbers around 7.5 million for their top programmes and around 3.5 for number 10. Channel 5 does not make 2 million for any programme, and Game of Thrones on Sky is 1.16 million. ITV 2, 3 and 4 don't even figure. Where is the audience in Ireland for any extra channels like that?

(Figures for week ending 3 Sept).

Digifriendly

dxhound2005 wrote: »

The weekly viewing figures from the Sunday Times for the UK show BBC 1 and ITV getting numbers around 7.5 million for their top programmes and around 3.5 for number 10. Channel 5 does not make 2 million for any programme, and Game of Thrones on Sky is 1.16 million. ITV 2, 3 and 4 don't even figure. Where is the audience in Ireland for any extra channels like that?
(Figures for week ending 3 Sept).

Take your point. Do you think Saorview should stay as it is?

JDxtra

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Are Saorview ever going to add more channels?

Saorview don't add the channels.

It's like asking the Dublin Port Authority if they are adding any new ferries to Liverpool. It's the ferry company that has to decide if they want to use Dublin Port.

But if the port wants to survive and thrive, it would do it's best to encourage additional ferries.

dxhound2005

Digifriendly wrote: »

Take your point. Do you think Saorview should stay as it is?

If RTE could get as much money as the BBC, I would like to see RTE 1 and RTE 2 producing more original material of high quality. And setting up another channel or two to carry repeats, much like the offshoots of ITV, Channel 4 and 5 do and as BBC 4 does. In today’s listings RTE 1 has 16 repeats out of 39 programmes and RTE 2 has 18 out of 32.

But with any increase in the licence fee being politically impossible as would be a Revenue enforced broadcasting charge, then this can’t happen. Just setting up new channels for the sake of it with no funding model will only give more and more repeats. And if nobody is watching what is the point?

TG4 can't afford to pay for HD and even providing commentaries in English on sports events would cost them money they haven't got.

Capt'n Midnight

JDxtra wrote: »

But if the port wants to survive and thrive, it would do it's best to encourage additional ferries.

In the commercial world it's unsustainable a have a ferry port running at half capacity and then only charge users half the real running costs needed to keep it open.


At present we have a setup where it's cheaper for TV3 & co. to show low quality pictures even though it would use no extra bandwidth or electricity to transmit in HD.

Sam Russell

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

In the commercial world it's unsustainable a have a ferry port running at half capacity and then only charge users half the real running costs needed to keep it open.


At present we have a setup where it's cheaper for TV3 & co. to show low quality pictures even though it would use no extra bandwidth or electricity to transmit in HD.

As we all know, the current charging regime on Saorview is fascicle with the simple objective of keeping TV3 (as it was) quiet. It should be redrawn in one of many ways.

1. Redefine SD to be 720 by 576i and charge a minimum bandwidth charge so PQ is respectable. This would not increase charges greatly - and certainly nothing like the €2.5 m quoted for HD. [It is only €6m for a complete mux that will cover 4 HD channels].

2. Have RTE take Mux 1 and pay 50% (€6m) of the total charge. Even this would be a cop out as RTE own and fund Saorview and both muxes.

3. Have all channels up their bandwidth/resolution to keep the existing charges but use all the available bandwidth.

Any of these would improve viewer experience significantly.



I]Although I seem to be banging on about this a lot, I have no connection with any of the players involved in DTV or anyone else. I just do the sums and read the reports.[/I