"Discrimination by Ryanair"

RasTa

RasTa wrote: »

She had already flown over.

It's every captains duty to satisfy themselves personally of the safety of everything that is allowed on their aircraft. It doesn't matter if 100 pilots before him or her were happy to allow it on board, if that pilot didn't have enough information to be personally satisfied, then it's their duty to err on the side of caution and not allow it on the craft.

How many flights she'd had prior have nothing to do with it, and the pilot did exactly what was expected of them.

smurfjed

The following is taken from the Ryanair site.... https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/useful-info/help-centre/faq-overview/Special-assistance/Can-I-bring-my-own-electric-wheelchair-mobility-scooter

Passengers are asked to bring the operating instructions to the airport.

In order to be accepted onto the flight electric wheelchairs and mobility scooters must comply with the following rules:

[*]We only accept dry/gel cell or lithium-ion (wheelchair) batteries (lithium-ion batteries cannot exceed a total of 300 watts)
[*]The dimensions of the wheelchair when collapsed must not exceed 81cms (height), 119cms (width) and 119cms (depth)
[*]The battery power must be isolated and exposed terminals protected from short circuiting, to protect the wheelchair/mobility aid from inadvertent activation, please remove the key, deactivate using the joystick or deactivate using an isolation switch or buttons, or other isolation mechanism (such as Anderson Connector or Airsafe plug ).

[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]This is taken from the Irish Times article.....[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]The staff asked Ms McGovern whether she knew the voltage of her chair, something she says she has never been asked before. “Usually the question is if it’s a dry cell or wet cell,” she said. “You cannot travel with a wet cell battery because it’s dangerous. But a dry cell battery, once it’s switched off, is perfectly safe to travel with.”[/font]

[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]There is a rule of 300W, if she couldn't provide this answer prior to the aircraft taking off, then how can you expect the Captain to accept the wheel chair?[/font]

weldoninhio

smurfjed wrote: »

The following is taken from the Ryanair site.... https://www.ryanair.com/gb/en/useful-info/help-centre/faq-overview/Special-assistance/Can-I-bring-my-own-electric-wheelchair-mobility-scooter

Passengers are asked to bring the operating instructions to the airport.

[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]This is taken from the Irish Times article.....[/font]
[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]The staff asked Ms McGovern whether she knew the voltage of her chair, something she says she has never been asked before. “Usually the question is if it’s a dry cell or wet cell,” she said. “You cannot travel with a wet cell battery because it’s dangerous. But a dry cell battery, once it’s switched off, is perfectly safe to travel with.”[/font]

[font=Georgia, "Times New Roman", Times, serif]There is a rule of 300W, if she couldn't provide this answer prior to the aircraft taking off, then how can you expect the Captain to accept the wheel chair?[/font]

Exactly 100% right. Imagine what the thread on here would be like if there had been an incident on board because of the wheelchair being over 300W, and the news came out that the pilot had asked about the battery, but decided to go ahead anyway, so as not to cause a fuss.

If i was Ryanair, i'd have her banned, never mind her own expression that she'd never fly with them again, I'd have her on a list.

r93kaey5p2izun

I think the individual pilot was correct but it exposes a failing in Ryanair's policies and procedures as this should have been checked in advance. The company should be apologetic and admit their poor procedures, the lady should accept that and move on. I don't understand the rush to absolve Ryanair of all blame here, whether you feel the woman is milking it or not.

weldoninhio

Keaton Slimy Spacecraft wrote: »

I think the individual pilot was correct but it exposes a failing in Ryanair's policies and procedures as this should have been checked in advance. The company should be apologetic and admit their poor procedures, the lady should accept that and move on. I don't understand the rush to absolve Ryanair of all blame here, whether you feel the woman is milking it or not.

If she'd been left to fend for herself and make her own way home, or if she'd been left for hours and hours with no food or drinks i'd be a bit more sympathetic.

But she was given vouchers for food and drink and was home two hours later. Its hardly the ordeal she is trying to portray. Ryanair told her the info they needed, she couldn't get it in time, so they bumped her onto the next flight, by which time she'd provided the information. By the way she's going on she wants M'OL to grovel at her feet. There was nothing discriminatory in what happened, she was not "treated like a criminal", she just had to wait an extra two hours to get home.

Boom_Bap

I think that we can safely say that this was not discrimination, it was acting upon safety concern.

r93kaey5p2izun

weldoninhio wrote: »

If she'd been left to fend for herself and make her own way home, or if she'd been left for hours and hours with no food or drinks i'd be a bit more sympathetic.

But she was given vouchers for food and drink and was home two hours later. Its hardly the ordeal she is trying to portray. Ryanair told her the info they needed, she couldn't get it in time, so they bumped her onto the next flight, by which time she'd provided the information. By the way she's going on she wants M'OL to grovel at her feet. There was nothing discriminatory in what happened, she was not "treated like a criminal", she just had to wait an extra two hours to get home.

As I said, I feel she needs to move on. I have no interest in her sob story tbh. But I think your defence of Ryanair is equally as exaggerated and over the top as her complaints of her ordeal.

They boarded her and then had to delay a whole plane of people to take her off because their procedures were inadequate. She completed their forms, they failed to look for the required information. The pilot was completely correct to refuse the chair if not satisfied of the safety - he/she is not at fault. But it should never come to this. Asking for the information while the lady is already on the plane is a failure for the company. Carrying wheelchairs is a common occurrence - a company as big as Ryanair should have procedures that ensure these things are dealt with in advance to ensure a smooth operation. They need to admit their failings and assure customers it has been rectified.

RasTa

smurfjed wrote: »

You obviously don't read enough aviation accident reports, onboard batteries are one of my biggest concerns. In a case like this i would have to know the battery type and was it considered dangerous goods or not, as we are not permitted to carry dangerous goods, then if it fell into that category it would be offloaded. 
Do you even know if Ryanair are certified to carry dangerous goods? Do you know if their Dublin staff are trained to handle dangerous goods or if their handling agent staff at outside stations are trained?

No, do you? All they had to do was google the make and model number to find out the wattage

Candie wrote: »

It's every captains duty to satisfy themselves personally of the safety of everything that is allowed on their aircraft. It doesn't matter if 100 pilots before him or her were happy to allow it on board, if that pilot didn't have enough information to be personally satisfied, then it's their duty to err on the side of caution and not allow it on the craft.

How many flights she'd had prior have nothing to do with it, and the pilot did exactly what was expected of them.

Why did the next pilot take her then? We don't know and Ryanair haven't mentioned that they confirmed it was safe which would be obvious.

hatrickpatrick

It's total bullsh!t, and anyone defending Ryanair here is missing the point. It shouldn't have been for the pilot to ask these questions or make a judgment call - these issues should be raised and sorted out at the point of buying a ticket, when one specifies wheelchair accessibility upon booking. They should ask you then and there to provide any information which is going to be necessary, and not book your flight or issue your tickets until they've ensured that you can fly based on that information - this stuff should never even be left until the passenger has arrived in the airport, let alone for the pilot to decide upon the actual boarding of the plane. It should be flagged at the earliest stage of booking a flight, not the latest.

Jawgap

RasTa wrote: »

No, do you? All they had to do was google the make and model number to find out the waatage



Why did the next pilot take her then? We don't know and Ryanair haven't mentioned that they confirmed it was safe which would be obvious.

.....its up to you as a passenger to make sure you provide or have the information relevant for your journey......by the sound of it, it was a simple enough question regarding voltage and they couldn't answer it, so the pilot, presumably considering the safety of the aircraft and the remaining passengers decided on a course of prudence - something we should be glad they prioritise rather than wondering about the reaction on Joe Duffy.....

A Safety Alert for Operators (SAFO) issued by the FAA on 8 October 2010 summarises the recent research that shows that lithium metal (non-rechargeable) and lithium-ion (rechargeable) batteries are highly flammable and capable of igniting during air transport.

Ignition of lithium metal batteries can be caused when a battery short circuits, is overcharged, is heated to extreme temperatures, is mishandled (including being crushed or dropped), or is otherwise defective. (Around one in 10,000,000 is acknowledged to be potentially defective during manufacture.) Once a cell is induced into thermal runaway, either by internal failure or by external means such as heating, over-discharge or physical damage, it generates sufficient heat to cause adjacent cells to go into thermal runaway.

The result of thermal runaway in a lithium metal cell is a more severe event as compared to a lithium-ion cell in thermal runaway. The lithium metal cell releases a flammable electrolyte mixed with molten lithium metal, accompanied by a large pressure pulse. The combination of flammable electrolyte and the molten lithium metal can result in an explosive mixture. Halon 1301, the suppression agent found in Class C cargo compartments, is ineffective in controlling a lithium metal cell fire.

RasTa

She already filled out the forms in advance of flying, why is she being asked again and why wasn't this question asked in the forms?

irelandrover

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's total bullsh!t, and anyone defending Ryanair here is missing the point. It shouldn't have been for the pilot to ask these questions or make a judgment call - these issues should be raised and sorted out at the point of buying a ticket, when one specifies wheelchair accessibility upon booking. They should ask you then and there to provide any information which is going to be necessary, and not book your flight or issue your tickets until they've ensured that you can fly based on that information - this stuff should never even be left until the passenger has arrived in the airport, let alone for the pilot to decide upon the actual boarding of the plane. It should be flagged at the earliest stage of booking a flight, not the latest.

I fully agree. THere is no situation where the passenger would change their wheelchair between booking and flights.

Passengers are also completely trustworthy and would never lie on such forms.

Jawgap

RasTa wrote: »

She already filled out the forms in advance of flying, why is she being asked again and why wasn't this question asked in the forms?

Because the PIC bears ultimate responsibility for the aircraft and the passengers and he or she would be a complete fool not to ask and keep asking questions until they were satisfied the flight can be operated safely......

.....have a look at the number of crashes, incidents etc that can be attributed to PICs or second officers not asking questions, or deferring to others - over the last two decades huge efforts have been made to make sure air crew do ask questions and push until they get satisfactory answers instead of working off assumptions or accepting information at face value.

in this case the PIC was spot on - any doubt, chuck it out! Better to face the 'wrath' of joe duffy and a few outraged snowflakes than an emergency landing with a fire onboard

gizmo81

Ryanair have form for lying and shifting the goal posts.

This woman flew with a company with no issues and on the return there was.

I've been flying Ryanair long before it was cool to fly Ryanair and have had no issue. However, I don't like their handling of the random seating saga, I'm paying for my seat next week but I don't appreciate their lies and backtracking, it doesn't foster goodwill nor loyalty with the company and frankly my next five flights this year to Gatwick are now booked with Aer Lingus.

RasTa

Jawgap wrote: »

in this case the PIC was spot on - any doubt, chuck it out! Better to face the 'wrath' of joe duffy and a few outraged snowflakes than an emergency landing with a fire onboard

Well with this logic used then this discussion is over. Snowflake used as well by an Irish person. Jesus.

seamus

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's total bullsh!t, and anyone defending Ryanair here is missing the point. It shouldn't have been for the pilot to ask these questions or make a judgment call - these issues should be raised and sorted out at the point of buying a ticket, when one specifies wheelchair accessibility upon booking.

Look, it's a one-size-fits-all policy. Some people may be able to tell you with absolute certainty which wheelchair they'll be using in a decade, others may not know which one they'll have next week.

Asking them to provide the details in advance is as useful as asking passengers to weigh their own luggage and write it down on the form. Six months before departure.

Realistically Ryanair should be asking why the other crews didn't flag the issue, not why this crew followed proper procedure.

weldoninhio

RasTa wrote: »

Why did the next pilot take her then? We don't know and Ryanair haven't mentioned that they confirmed it was safe which would be obvious.

It was stated that once they had gotten the information that the chair was safe to fly they put her on the next available flight.

RasTa

weldoninhio wrote: »

It was stated that once they had gotten the information that the chair was safe to fly they put her on the next available flight.

Yeah from the forms they filled out online prior to departure. Captain messed this one up

r93kaey5p2izun

RasTa wrote: »

Yeah from the forms they filled out online prior to departure. Captain messed this one up

No, I don't think the captain made any errors. It seems the forms didn't request this information. It's a failure of company procedures.

Jawgap

RasTa wrote: »

Yeah from the forms they filled out online prior to departure. Captain messed this one up

So, take this to its logical conclusion - the documentation on the outbound flight showed the chair was ok to go? So why not accept the weight of luggage?

If I rock up for a return flight with the same bag as I travelled out with, surely Ryanair should just accept it - after all it was accepted for the outbound flight so surely it should be accepted for the return flight, no questions asked......by your logic.

RasTa

Keaton Slimy Spacecraft wrote: »

No, I don't think the captain made any errors. It seems the forms didn't request this information. It's a failure of company procedures.

On the website it says

Please book the assistance required on www.ryanair.com and if you have selected that you are travelling with an electric wheelchair/scooter, you will subsequently receive an email requesting the details of your mobility device.

Alternatively, once the assistance is booking online you can click here to submit this information and our dedicated Special Assistance team will add it to your booking.

Passengers are asked to bring the operating instructions to the airport.

In order to be accepted onto the flight electric wheelchairs and mobility scooters must comply with the following rules:

We only accept dry/gel cell or lithium-ion (wheelchair) batteries (lithium-ion batteries cannot exceed a total of 300 watts)

Captain wouldn't have a clue where to get this info. His discrimination and Ryanair's staff not able to location said document before plane took off led to this person being removed from the plane.

Case closed.

RasTa

Jawgap wrote: »

So, take this to its logical conclusion - the documentation on the outbound flight showed the chair was ok to go? So why not accept the weight of luggage?

If I rock up for a return flight with the same bag as I travelled out with, surely Ryanair should just accept it - after all it was accepted for the outbound flight so surely it should be accepted for the return flight, no questions asked......by your logic.

It's a wheelchair, not a bag. What's your suggestion in this nonsense?

Jawgap

RasTa wrote: »

On the website it says



Captain wouldn't have a clue where to get this info. His discrimination and Ryanair's staff not able to location said document before plane took off led to this person being removed from the plane.

Case closed.

Now......read that carefully again and maybe you'll spot the problem

r93kaey5p2izun

Jawgap wrote: »

So, take this to its logical conclusion - the documentation on the outbound flight showed the chair was ok to go? So why not accept the weight of luggage?

If I rock up for a return flight with the same bag as I travelled out with, surely Ryanair should just accept it - after all it was accepted for the outbound flight so surely it should be accepted for the return flight, no questions asked......by your logic.

I agree with not trusting or relying on passengers to provide accurate information. I agree the airline should check any such info each time. My issue with this incident is that the lady was on board before the issue was raised. Imagine not verifying luggage weights or contents until after the passengers are aboard? This is a failure of procedures impacting on a plane load of people, not just the lady concerned. I have no issue with the pilot's actions.

irishman86

Another yawn story with nothing happening worthy of news at all

Jawgap

Keaton Slimy Spacecraft wrote: »

I agree with not trusting or relying on passengers to provide accurate information. I agree the airline should check any such info each time. My issue with this incident is that the lady was on board before the issue was raised. Imagine not verifying luggage weights or contents until after the passengers are aboard? This is a failure of procedures impacting on a plane load of people, not just the lady concerned. I have no issue with the pilot's actions.

Imagine not having the instructions with you when it's made explicit in the booking conditions that you should have them with you.

r93kaey5p2izun

Jawgap wrote: »

Imagine not having the instructions with you when it's made explicit in the booking conditions that you should have them with you.

Absolutely. As I already said, I don't care about her sob story. I still think this is a result of a failure in Ryanair policies and procedures. Lots of passengers will make mistakes or deliberately mislead. The company's procedures for such a routine thing as boarding a wheelchair passenger should prevent this happening. They need to sort this out. They delayed as whole plane of people because they allowed a passenger board without verifying information in advance.

RasTa

Shame that wasn't the reasoning for denying them

gramar

I heard of a woman getting on a Ryanair flight with a buggy and they wouldn't let her on so she just
left it there on the tarmac and boarded saying she'd get another one for nothing anyway.
She bought a few items from the trolley then and when she couldn't be arsed putting away
her change she just flung it on the floor.

odyssey06

Boom_Bap wrote: »

I think that we can safely say that this was not discrimination, it was acting upon safety concern.

Having inadequate policies and procedures to deal with people with disabilities is a form of discrimination.
This is not a small regional airline, this is a company worth €14 billion with thousands of employees.
Perhaps the pilot can be exonerated for putting safety first - but Ryanair as a company cannot.
They should not have put their pilot in a position where he had to make this kind of decision at short notice.