Venezuela is uprising.

A Little Pony

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

This is said all the time when again one of the nutjob countries fails because of the inevitable outcome that Socialism does not work.

No, this has just been the historical position of left-wing Socialists since before the Russian revolution.
People like Anton Pannekoek, Karl Korsch & Rosa Luxemburg were extremely critical of Marxism-Leninsm and were oppossed to it because of both Lenin & Trotsky's opportunistic vanguardism & bureaucratic tendencies, which they predicted would give rise to totalitarianism.

And the first things that Lenin did after he siezed power in the October coup and consolidated his power after the Civil War, was to get rid of Worker's Control (one of the main aims of Socialism) - the People's Soviets,Workers councils etc.. and then just reconstructed the Tsarist forms of control and oppression with secret police & death squads (KGB, Checka etc).  

Noam Chomsky wrote that the fall of the Soviet Union should be viewed as a victory for Socialism as the Soviet Union was giant barrier to it and reinforced the views of Luxemburg and brilliantly expanded on them.

I've never defended Marxism-Leninism. You should read a history book or do some research or something before you start talking on a subject you have no clue about.

Venezuela has had problems before Chavez was democratically elected to power.
Economic shocks in the 1980s and 1990s that caused inflation to rise to 100%  
In May 1993 Carlos Perez then Venezuelan President was forced out of the office by the Supreme Court for the embezzlement of 250 million bolivars belonging to a presidential discretionary fund.

Chavez is on record saying he was a Marxist, the idea that socialism has been a great thing for Venezuela is baffling and why anyone would make the case is beyond me. This has happened for well over 100 years with various socialist countries running themselves into the ground.

Socialism ignores the fundamental problem with it in that it ignores the basic tenants of human behaviour. It is drawn up in such a way that it is impossible for it to work and thrive consistently over a very long period of time as it eventually falls apart. Once they run out of money, lack of outside investment for jobs, no food on shelves, the system falls apart and thus the country.

Ipso

Looking back, it's amazing how similar Chavez was to Trump. Loud mouth populist who blamed the countries problems on external forces.

BalcombeSt4

A Little Pony wrote: »

Chavez is on record saying he was a Marxist, the idea that socialism has been a great thing for Venezuela is baffling and why anyone would make the case is beyond me. This has happened for well over 100 years with various socialist countries running themselves into the ground.

Socialism ignores the fundamental problem with it in that it ignores the basic tenants of human behaviour. It is drawn up in such a way that it is impossible for it to work and thrive consistently over a very long period of time as it eventually falls apart. Once they run out of money, lack of outside investment for jobs, no food on shelves, the system falls apart and thus the country.

Well he was a Marxist. Socialism was not great for Venezuela because Chavez failed to introduce Socialism into Venezuela because he was afraid of a backlash from the rich capitalist class who have very strong allies and. He introduced reforms in Healthcare, Education & Housing.
The Majority of the Venezuela economy is privat e owned. And the other lie that he banned all opposition is not true, the private owned media even after the 2002 coup was attacking him non-stop. If they did that in the United States they would have executed the media who supported a coup against a US government.

The core principle of Scoialism is that the workers control the means of production, until that you not claim to be a Socialist state. You can claim to be a Socialist who wants to implement Socialism but until you do the state is not.

Ipso

So how do workers control the means of production? "Workers" get to vote every election, what if they vote for private ownership of the means of production?

Rumpy Pumpy

Ipso wrote: »

So how do workers control the means of production? "Workers" get to vote every election, what if they vote for private ownership of the means of production?

I'm not that versed in the finer points of socialism, but I think that's the dictatorship of the worker phase, where they are so happy with their lot that they reject such silly ideas.

Looks like Venezuela is another case of the wrong type of socialism and not enough socialism. That's over 100 times now where groups and countries have pretended to try socialism, but have got it wrong. Must be a very complex thing to get right.

Ipso

Rumpy Pumpy wrote: »

I'm not that versed in the finer points of socialism, but I think that's the dictatorship of the worker phase, where they are so happy with their lot that they reject such silly ideas.

Looks like Venezuela is another case of the wrong type of socialism and not enough socialism. That's over 100 times now where groups and countries have pretended to try socialism, but have got it wrong. Must be a very complex thing to get right.

But the ULA could do it.

A Little Pony

Ipso wrote: »

So how do workers control the means of production? "Workers" get to vote every election, what if they vote for private ownership of the means of production?

They can't control the hunger they have when they are starving because the country is running out of food and the economy is a basket case.  Workers never have control.

Gringo180

ChikiChiki wrote: »

What an absolute fupping idiot. The SIPTU guy should really go and educate himself. People are literally starving to death over there. I despise SIPTU and their ilk.

There are people starving to death in most countries in the world. Look at the homeless crisis in this country. Capitalism has its failures as well as socialism. I also dont get why the Americans are sticking there nose in Venezuela, most likely to install a puupet government so they can have there own brand of corruption in Caracas so they can rape the country for there resources. I dont understand how people call Chavez a dictator either, he was one of the most democratically elected leaders of all time.

Venezuela also has the highest number of students in university in the world.

Elmer Blooker

Gringo180 wrote: »

There are people starving to death in most countries in the world. Look at the homeless crisis in this country. Capitalism has its failures as well as socialism. I also dont get why the Americans are sticking there nose in Venezuela, most likely to install a puupet government so they can have there own brand of corruption in Caracas so they can rape the country for there resources. I dont understand how people call Chavez a dictator either, he was one of the most democratically elected leaders of all time.

Venezuela also has the highest number of students in university in the world.

OIL.

mistersifter

Doltanian wrote: »

Think someone like Augusto Pinochet who would make peace and trade with the US and actually grew the real economy. Alot of Venezuelans have been socially conditioned into thinking and expecting the Govt to owe them a living due to the relative welfare state that formally existed. Essentially there is a huge welfare dependent underclass in Venezuela which is also split along ethnic racial lines with the mixed race Mestizo population now the majority and fed typical leftwing propaganda thinks the white man owes them something while the population of European descent has dropped to around 40% of the population.

There is outside interference also and the US and Russia are now taking a more active interest. Essentially Venezuela is the sort of wet-dream Paul Murphy, Anti-Austerity types and Sinn Fein backed by their corrupt stooges in the trade unions would love to implement here. Equality for all, drag everyone into the gutter and give the white a good kicking while he is down. Essentially lets all be poor and miserable together.

I do agree with your criticisms of socialism. However, perhaps the white European class do owe something to those with a more indigenous background. I mean, those of white european descent have oppressed those with other racial backgrounds for centuries throughout Latin America. There is huge racism directed at those who appear to have indigenous descent. Far left regimes are actually a result of racism in a way because the "native" poor generally have less opportunities to prosper and then they go looking for a saviour figure like Chavez. All the hopes of the poor get directed towards individuals (chavismo, peronismo, menemismo, etc. etc.) and that facilitates dictatorships.

Pinochet disappeared a lot of poeple and sent many people into exile, so I don't agree that those kinds of leaders are a good idea for any country in Latin America, despite the fact that the USA might support them for their own financial interests. In Argentina Macri is now playing ball with the USA and seems to be facilitating international trade much more than the previous government, but things aren't getting any better there. So I'm not sure how effective such action can be in Venezuela. I think it's a very hopeless situation in general.

mistersifter

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The world worked out fine with "Social inequality". Europe worked out fine until we started all of this Marxist policy of addressing "Social Inequality".

A good, competitive society has multiple tiers. It always has and always will be. Governments need to stop this ridiculousness of social engineering. It doesnt work.

Multiple tiers, yes, but when there a millions living in shanty towns without running water and electricity while others live a life a luxury, you have to address it. There is no justification for that kind of situation.

Junkyard Tom

Doltanian wrote: »

Think someone like Augusto Pinochet who would make peace and trade with the US and actually grew the real economy.

Make peace? He was a US stooge who overthrew Chilean democracy and murdered/tortured thousands while he was at it. Also the idea that the Chicago goons, with their 'shock-therapy' capitalist social engineering, saved Chile's economy has been debunked over-and-over.

mistersifter

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Make peace? He was a US stooge who overthrew Chilean democracy and murdered/tortured thousands while he was at it. Also the idea that the Chicago goons, with their 'shock-therapy' capitalist social engineering, saved Chile's economy has been debunked over-and-over.

and the Washington consensus paved the way for crisis in Arg.... Appeasing the US doesnt solve all problems. As I said before, seems like a hopeless situation that depends on far more factors than venezuela's acceptance or rejection of socialism.

Elmer Blooker

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

OIL.

Oil and the (still) little-known fact that the United States has quite the history of overthrowing democratically elected governments in Central and South America. To describe the US as complete and utter bastards really doesn't convey the extent of what they've done (mostly by exploiting the Cold War as an excuse). Successful US attempts from Guatamala to Chile to Nicaragua, and failed attempts in Venezuela spring immediately to mind. And they're just some of the democratically elected governments it has overthrown. Hundreds of thousands of people have died directly because of the United States arming a variety of far-right authoritarian regimes (most notoriously in Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador and Chile) with frankly incredible records of torture and mass murder. All because the United States wants to keep US firms exploiting those countries (it was, for instance, Chiquita Bananas in Boston which successfully requested the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Guatemala in 1954).


Anybody in denial could do worse than read Walter La Feber's Inevitable Revolutions: The United States in Central America for a harrowing history of US involvement there.

mistersifter

Deleted User wrote: »

Oil and the (still) little-known fact that the United States has quite the history of overthrowing democratically elected governments in Central and South America.

If I'm not mistaken the USA secretly backed a coup to overthrow an elected president in Honduras not so long ago, too. This is why labelling Latin American countries as basket cases or implying that they are just inherently nut job countries is unfair. There are so many outside forces at play, the nut jobs are the ones on the outside a lot of the time.

Cheers for the book recommendation. There's another one called The Open Veins of Latin America written by a Uruguayan author Eduardo Galeano which talks about this sort of stuff too. The documentary Hour of the Furnaces is worth a watch - despite being very marxist it shows about how foreign governments have taken advantage of Latin America over the years.

Dohnjoe

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

OIL.

Not really no, this is a common enough trope.

US gets about 7% of it's oil from Venezuela, and that figure is arguably much more important to the Venezuelans than it is to the US. Chavez was in power for 14 years and didn't stop exports to the US, neither did his successor.

Due to US meddling in S America during the Cold War - some pretty dreadful S American populist leaders have made a career out of scapegoating their country's problems on the US.

Unfortunately for Maduro, both he and his late-predecessor have been in power for such a long time that the "old faithful" excuse is wearing thin - and people can clearly see that these leaders have run their country into the ground with bad policy, mismanagement and dictatorship style shenanigans

Irish Praetorian

mistersifter wrote: »

If I'm not mistaken the USA secretly backed a coup to overthrow an elected president in Honduras not so long ago, too. This is why labelling Latin American countries as basket cases or implying that they are just inherently nut job countries is unfair. There are so many outside forces at play, the nut jobs are the ones on the outside a lot of the time.

Cheers for the book recommendation. There's another one called The Open Veins of Latin America written by a Uruguayan author Eduardo Galeano which talks about this sort of stuff too. The documentary Hour of the Furnaces is worth a watch - despite being very marxist it shows about how foreign governments have taken advantage of Latin America over the years.

I'm sorry what is your evidence for this?

As to your wider point, whatever complaint we might have about US intervention Central America (and to be frank I think we can draw a line stretching back a lot further than people think, as in the middle of the nineteenth century) I find little evidence for the kind of break neck intervention in the post Cold-War period.

mistersifter

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I'm sorry what is your evidence for this?

As to your wider point, whatever complaint we might have about US intervention Central America (and to be frank I think we can draw a line stretching back a lot further than people think, as in the middle of the nineteenth century) I find little evidence for the kind of break neck intervention in the post Cold-War period.

No need to be sorry. I said "as far as I am aware" , which of course means that I am open to corrections from anyone who might know more about Honduran/US politics than me. However, here's an article that discusses the controversy in question that suggest there is some substance in the claim https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/31/hillary-clinton-honduras-violence-manuel-zelaya-berta-caceres

Also, my point wasn't intended to put all blame for anything bad that happens in Latin America on the USA, but rather to state that the issues of Latin America do not exist in some sort of national vacuum as some comments seem to imply.

Irish Praetorian

mistersifter wrote: »

No need to be sorry. I said "as far as I am aware" , which of course means that I am open to corrections from anyone who might know more about Honduran/US politics than me. However, here's an article that discusses the controversy in question that suggest there is some substance in the claim https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/31/hillary-clinton-honduras-violence-manuel-zelaya-berta-caceres

Also, my point wasn't intended to put all blame for anything bad that happens in Latin America on the USA, but rather to state that the issues of Latin America do not exist in some sort of national vacuum as some comments seem to imply.

Curiously enough the article seems to intimate the the failure of the US was not in intervening in Honduras, let alone supporting a coup, but rather in its failure to intervene as events transpired. This strikes me as being characteristic of a lot of criticism of the US, namely they are damned if they do and damned when they don't.

Your latter point however seems like quite a fair and accurate representation of affairs in Latin America.

Overheal

Well thats it guys, socialism is invalid. Pack it in.

Richard Hillman

It has been proven time and time again that it doesn't work. The real killer for it is more of humanistic thing. When society starts to crumble, when the shelves in the shops are empty, when people are not being paid, the leader of the Socialist Paradise suddenly realises that he will be lynched when he walks the streets again. This is where the Power Grabs begin, it is pure survivalist instincts. Maduro knows that when the system falls, he will have to make a quick run to Cuba or be dragged through the streets of Caracas. It wont be just him either, they'll take his wife and children.

Dont believe for a second that when the poo hits the fan that Jeremy Corbyn or Paul Murphy wont go for a quick grab of power to save their lives.


also on the subject of Maduro's children, here is his son being showered in Dollar bills at his Birthday :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76bGZRWz-ws

Irish Praetorian

If I might swap sides for a moment, could we spare ourselves the ridiculous Americanism of calling garden variety far-left nonsense 'SOCIALISM' (TM) for a change?

I mean no-one in their right mind can defend Venezuela-ish regimes, but this charge of 'death to all Socialism' really undervalues European achievements in establishing a Social Security net and making reasonably accommodations for the state to support the weakest in society. No-one is rushing to hold up Venezuela as an example but we need not go make American 'Job Creators' of ourselves either.

mistersifter

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It has been proven time and time again that it doesn't work. The real killer for it is more of humanistic thing. When society starts to crumble, when the shelves in the shops are empty, when people are not being paid, the leader of the Socialist Paradise suddenly realises that he will be lynched when he walks the streets again. This is where the Power Grabs begin, it is pure survivalist instincts. Maduro knows that when the system falls, he will have to make a quick run to Cuba or be dragged through the streets of Caracas. It wont be just him either, they'll take his wife and children.

Dont believe for a second that when the poo hits the fan that Jeremy Corbyn or Paul Murphy wont go for a quick grab of power to save their lives.


also on the subject of Maduro's children, here is his son being showered in Dollar bills at his Birthday :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76bGZRWz-ws

He should be at least taking his top off or something for those dollars .

'When the system falls', (re)enter the conservative right/neoliberalism. Poverty gap doesn't improve - maybe it worsens. The left re-gains support. Rinse and Repeat.

The left-wing ex-president Cristina Kirchner has just returned to politics since being defeated by centre-right "Let's Change" president Mauricio Macri 2 years ago. She has a senate seat in her sights and possible subsequent return to the presidency in the pipeline. Hopeless! Apologies for the pessimism. Hasta luego!

VinLieger

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

I mean no-one in their right mind can defend Venezuela-ish regimes,

Agreed....... meanwhile Sinn Fein called the elections "perfectly fair" and still has yet to condemn Maduros regime

VinLieger

And yesterday the workers party were protesting outside the american embassy IN SUPPORT of maduro, the mind boggles at these lunatics.

Meanwhile actual Venezuelans staged a counter protest against tge maduro regimes crimes on the other side of the street.

joe swanson

VinLieger wrote: »

And yesterday the workers party were protesting outside the american embassy IN SUPPORT of maduro, the mind boggles at these lunatics.

Meanwhile actual Venezuelans staged a counter protest against tge maduro regimes crimes on the other side of the street.

Is anyone really surprised? Look at their facebook page about it. Full of Venezuelan s telling them how wrong they are. Of course the workers know better and are putting them in their place. You couldn't make it up

Cheerful Spring

Trump just said now he could use military force in Venezuela? This guy was against war in Iraq?

Gatling

I see maduro has asked to see trump personally ,
Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro has said he wants a face-to-face meeting with US President Donald Trump.

He told the newly elected constituent assembly that he wanted "a personal conversation" when the two leaders attended the UN General Assembly in New York next month.

Mr Trump recently imposed sanctions on Mr Maduro, accusing him of undermining democracy.


Might be an interesting discussion ,

ChikiChiki

Gatling wrote: »

I see maduro has asked to see trump personally ,
Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro has said he wants a face-to-face meeting with US President Donald Trump.

He told the newly elected constituent assembly that he wanted "a personal conversation" when the two leaders attended the UN General Assembly in New York next month.

Mr Trump recently imposed sanctions on Mr Maduro, accusing him of undermining democracy.


Might be an interesting discussion ,

Interesting conversation between two populist muppets without an ounce of diplomacy between the pair of them.

Harry Angstrom

VinLieger wrote: »

Agreed....... meanwhile Sinn Fein called the elections "perfectly fair" and still has yet to condemn Maduros regime

This is Sinn Fein we're talking about. They have a bit of a soft spot for Marxist dictators, or just dictators in general. Sure they thought Gaddafi was a great fella altogether.