Heavyweight Boxing

yourdeadwright

normanoffside wrote: »

Don’t get me wrong. Joyce is terrible. I only started this Joyce talk in reference to Whyte who I believe is also terrible.
Joyce is big, strong, fit and sturdy and that would get him a long way in the ‘sub elite’ class.

There are only 3 elites at the moment and they are miles ahead of the sub elites. You could have had Ortiz in between the two classes there for a few years but I reckon he is too old now and drops back into the sub elites.

Gorman and Dubois will never crack into that top 3 class either imo. They just haven’t got anything to take on the 3 top guys.

It'll be very interesting to see who will be the next guy to break into the elite level ,
Some think Usyk but I think he will be to small, as mentioned early Tony Yoka good be the one but has a long way to go

Big Ears

Don't be fooled by Joyce's slow handspeed.
He had no problem landing on the top amateurs in the World, and he's had no problem landing on (the albeit low) standard of guys he's fought so far.

He'll never be able to hang with the likes of Fury, Wilder and Joshua, but anyone below will have issues with his size, strength, pressure and volume.

The Jennings fight if it comes off will tell us a lot. Jennings is no joke and a well schooled fighter.

Kilboor

Slow speed doesn't mean you can't be great. Foreman is an example. Average speed in his prime, slow as **** on his return and still battered people to a pulp.

As long as you can maintain punching power/stamina for 10 rounds it's fair game.

yourdeadwright

Kilboor wrote: »

Slow speed doesn't mean you can't be great. Foreman is an example. Average speed in his prime, slow as **** on his return and still battered people to a pulp.

As long as you can maintain punching power/stamina for 10 rounds it's fair game.

This is true but if we are talking about being an elite heavy weight today your going to need to be quick,

Look at the elite 3 currently , if your a slow your going to be beaten by them ,

Again everything needs to be taken in context Joyce could be top 15 in the world which means your one hell of a fighter but your also levels below the big 3,

selectamatic

yourdeadwright wrote: »

It'll be very interesting to see who will be the next guy to break into the elite level ,
Some think Usyk but I think he will be to small, as mentioned early Tony Yoka good be the one but has a long way to go

If Usyk's chin can stand up to HW pressure and his gas tank remains as good as it was at CW then it will most definitely be Usyk.

Those are 2 big ifs though...

Angliru

Usyk boxed the snot out of Joyce in the WSB years back. Usyk has improved considerably since then. It is a small factor in why I think he has a great chance of causing havoc at HW. Joyce is decent but I don't think he'll ever be a factor. It just seems like it is fairly straight forward in how to approach fighting him and beating him.

squinn2912

normanoffside wrote: »

Don’t get me wrong. Joyce is terrible. I only started this Joyce talk in reference to Whyte who I believe is also terrible.
Joyce is big, strong, fit and sturdy and that would get him a long way in the ‘sub elite’ class.

There are only 3 elites at the moment and they are miles ahead of the sub elites. You could have had Ortiz in between the two classes there for a few years but I reckon he is too old now and drops back into the sub elites.

Gorman and Dubois will never crack into that top 3 class either imo. They just haven’t got anything to take on the 3 top guys.

Yea I agree with most of that. Those two are like for like and Whyte has been in with better opposition.
Agree about Ortiz but I think he's worthy of title shots against any of the big 3. He had Wilder badly hurt and it went 9 rounds.

I'd give Gorman and Dubois time to prove that right or wrong. Yoka maybe too. Then these beasts from the east - I know nothing about them but they seem to exist.

squinn2912

I think Usyk will have a lot to do to win belts. I think he's great in the division and will be rooting for him. I don't expect him to be able to quite do it though. At CW he would be untouchable so major respect for taking this step. I think the bigger guys will be able to take the shot it requires in order to bully him into a corner and smother him. Too much power. In the a matures the big gloves would help him too.

selectamatic

If he can move for the full 12 like he did in that Gassiev fight it'll be hard pin him in a corner all the same.

squinn2912

selectamatic wrote: »

If he can move for the full 12 like he did in that Gassiev fight it'll be hard pin him in a corner all the same.

Yea that is true and Gassiev is a lovely, lovely fighter. Usyk made him look ordinary in that fight. I watched the semi wasn't it against Dorticus and Gassiev got the ko in round 12. Brilliant combos but maybe not as effective chasing.

The HW boys will have another 25 lbs to use to push him into those corners. That and maybe 4 inches in reach too. Shots on the arms will sting more, body shots, glancing shots - all of it. I can see him getting emptied against the big guys and maybe not even top 3

Although I was expecting Gassiev to upset and beat him and he didn't get near him. I'd love to be wrong and I daresay we'll not be too long finding out.

selectamatic

I have my doubts as well but the same as yourself I want to be wrong.

The 3 amigos are all the same when it comes to picking and choosing their fights, moaning about fight purses and fighting once a blue moon.

A hungry Usyk would be a high profile breath of fresh air.

The optics of a somewhat normal man coming out on top in the era of freaks would be a sight to behold too.

yourdeadwright

selectamatic wrote: »

I have my doubts as well but the same as yourself I want to be wrong.

The 3 amigos are all the same when it comes to picking and choosing their fights, moaning about fight purses and fighting once a blue moon.

A hungry Usyk would be a high profile breath of fresh air.

The optics of a somewhat normal man coming out on top in the era of freaks would be a sight to behold too.

I agree with you but I think the story of the lads picking fights is a bit false

Wilder fought Ortiz and Fury back to back and then a mandatory

Fury fought Wilder after two years out with two warm ups that where basically spar's that not bad going at all , Although with his new deal he signed he has gone the way of having more easy fights ,

AJ has all the belts if he wanted the Wilder fight or Fury fight he could get them made,

squinn2912

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I agree with you but I think the story of the lads picking fights is a bit false

Wilder fought Ortiz and Fury back to back and then a mandatory

Fury fought Wilder after two years out with two warm ups that where basically spar's that not bad going at all , Although with his new deal he signed he has gone the way of having more easy fights ,

AJ has all the belts if he wanted the Wilder fight or Fury fight he could get them made,

Fury and Wilder fighting one another gives them both massive credit. I think Fury wins the rematch.
I have no issue with them going hard-easy-hard at all but the longer they avoid each other the more frustrating it gets. Wilder made a clever point bringing up Bowe-Lewis. It's a sin that fight never was made and it's almost worse that it only happened when Tyson was washed up. That's how it goes.
If Usyk could get a fight for the belts and win them then it gives the whole thing a massive shake up. It's very different from what Haye or Jones Jr did though. Much bigger ask. When you look back at it Haye stayed away from and beat a very limited boxer in Valuev and did precious little else in the division. On the other hand I don't think any of the big three are as good as what Wlad was when Haye fought him so that's another story.

yourdeadwright

I don't for a second doubt Aj willingness to fight the other two, but I severely doubt Hearn's willingness to put his cash cow on the line ,

Hearn won't let him near Wilder or Fury until we see cracks on them , he will wait till Aj has his best chance to win

I also would not bet against one of the 3 losing in a fight that's suppose to be a gimme,
Time and time again it has happened to heavy weights down through the years ,

normanoffside

squinn2912 wrote: »

Yea I agree with most of that. Those two are like for like and Whyte has been in with better opposition.
Agree about Ortiz but I think he's worthy of title shots against any of the big 3. He had Wilder badly hurt and it went 9 rounds.

I saw Ortiz in the ring after the Wilder fight and he looked both old and fat. He has looked terrible since his own Wilder fight I don’t see him ever being a force again

No wonder he didn’t take the AJ fight on short notice.

selectamatic

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I agree with you but I think the story of the lads picking fights is a bit false

Wilder fought Ortiz and Fury back to back and then a mandatory

Fury fought Wilder after two years out with two warm ups that where basically spar's that not bad going at all , Although with his new deal he signed he has gone the way of having more easy fights ,

AJ has all the belts if he wanted the Wilder fight or Fury fight he could get them made,

I won't be getting into an argument here but Fury took up the unrealistic mantle that a Joshua fight would have to be a 50/50 split from very early on in his comeback trail.

The man who doesn't care for money and gives his fight purses to charity very deliberately priced himself out of a fight with Joshua because he didn't want the fight at the time.

Joshua is demanding big money sure but this is always the case for the man with the majority of the belts.

Wilder was at similar when the only name on his record was Ortiz.

Things have changed since wilder and fury fought each other but so too has the talk from AJ and Hearn. A fight with wilder seems to be very much on the cards.

All in all they're different cheeks of the same arse. Fury fighting Tom fecking Schwarz on ppv should hammer that home to ya.

Usyk could be of a different mindset especially given his companionship with Loma

fonecrusher1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Fury and Wilder fighting one another gives them both massive credit. I think Fury wins the rematch.
I have no issue with them going hard-easy-hard at all but the longer they avoid each other the more frustrating it gets. Wilder made a clever point bringing up Bowe-Lewis. It's a sin that fight never was made and it's almost worse that it only happened when Tyson was washed up. That's how it goes.
If Usyk could get a fight for the belts and win them then it gives the whole thing a massive shake up. It's very different from what Haye or Jones Jr did though. Much bigger ask. When you look back at it Haye stayed away from and beat a very limited boxer in Valuev and did precious little else in the division. On the other hand I don't think any of the big three are as good as what Wlad was when Haye fought him so that's another story.

David Hayes great claim to fame is beating the lumbering Valuev ffs. He talked all sorts of trash before he fought Klitschko and delivered very little. Who else did he beat? Audley Harrison a man who never really converted over to the professional level properly. Sure Bellew made easy work of him in both fights. He did the right thing retiring before he got seriously hurt. I will say this though Haye had some serious punching power in his prime.

nacho libre

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

David Hayes great claim to fame is beating the lumbering Valuev ffs. He talked all sorts of trash before he fought Klitschko and delivered very little. Who else did he beat? Audley Harrison a man who never really converted over to the professional level properly. Sure Bellew made easy work of him in both fights. He did the right thing retiring before he got seriously hurt. I will say this though Haye had some serious punching power in his prime.

Ah but he had a broken toe against Wlad:D

I still think a prime Haye would have wiped the floor with Bellew. Bellew even said so himself.
Regarding Uysk chances at heavyweight, he doesn't have power at heavyweight to deter the bigger men from coming forward. He has shown a good chin at cruiserweight, but how will it fare against big hitters at heavyweight. Bellew did have some success early on against Uysk, if that's Joshua or Wilder it might be goodnight. As skillful ay Uysk is, i don't think he will able to avoid being tested at some point over 12 rounds.

squinn2912

normanoffside wrote: »

I saw Ortiz in the ring after the Wilder fight and he looked both old and fat. He has looked terrible since his own Wilder fight I don’t see him ever being a force again

No wonder he didn’t take the AJ fight on short notice.

That’s true as well. Judging from the wilder fight he did do well. But it’s an easy rematch. Wilder weighed very light that night and was said to have been both injured and unwell

squinn2912

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

David Hayes great claim to fame is beating the lumbering Valuev ffs. He talked all sorts of trash before he fought Klitschko and delivered very little. Who else did he beat? Audley Harrison a man who never really converted over to the professional level properly. Sure Bellew made easy work of him in both fights. He did the right thing retiring before he got seriously hurt. I will say this though Haye had some serious punching power in his prime.

I’m not pushing for haye here I always disliked him. But as bad as he was against Wlad he went 12 rounds with an awesome Klitschko. By the time he fought bellew he was totally finished. A prime haye would’ve dismantled him

squinn2912

nacho libre wrote: »

Ah but he had a broken toe against Wlad:D

I still think a prime Haye would have wiped the floor with Bellew. Bellew even said so himself.
Regarding Uysk chances at heavyweight, he doesn't have power at heavyweight to deter the bigger men from coming forward. He has shown a good chin at cruiserweight, but how will it fare against big hitters at heavyweight. Bellew did have some success early on against Uysk, if that's Joshua or Wilder it might be goodnight. As skillful ay Uysk is, i don't think he will able to avoid being tested at some point over 12 rounds.

That’s exactly what I think lol I posted before I noticed this

dougm1970

about that fury purse that went to charity....did he ??

fonecrusher1

squinn2912 wrote: »

A prime haye would’ve dismantled him

Agreed. Bellew fought a guy who had been out of the ring for a few years if I recall. The last properly competitive fight before he met Bellew in 2017 was in 2012 vs Chisora! Another fighter who's always been on the fringe of the top tier of heavyweight boxing.

nacho libre

dougm1970 wrote: »

about that fury purse that went to charity....did he ??

According to Eddie Hearn it didn't

mada82

nacho libre wrote: »

According to Eddie Hearn it didn't

I’d believe that. Fury is a liar who constantly contradicts himself. No idea why people like him.

fonecrusher1

mada82 wrote: »

I’d believe that. Fury is a liar who constantly contradicts himself. No idea why people like him.

I don't mind him myself, he's a character. I'll give him that. Sure he talks a lot of **** but ever hear Wilders utter waffle? As heavyweight boxers go they're refreshingly interesting IMO. I think Fury has made heavyweight boxing a much more entertaining sport since he came on the scene.

Just my two cents.

Cyrus

mada82 wrote: »

I’d believe that. Fury is a liar who constantly contradicts himself. No idea why people like him.

I wouldn’t rely on Eddie Hearns word

ASOT

Hughies on Channel 5 tomorrow, horrible card with some undercard opponents still not finalized. Free fights all the same I'll give it a watch.

squinn2912

ASOT wrote: »

Hughies on Channel 5 tomorrow, horrible card with some undercard opponents still not finalized. Free fights all the same I'll give it a watch.

Who’s he fighting?

ASOT

squinn2912 wrote: »

Who’s he fighting?

Chris Norrad. Undefeated Canadian :pac: