Heavyweight Boxing

yourdeadwright

Morrison J wrote: »

He legit looked awful back then. Got to take into account that he was only 20 and didn't really have an extensive amateur career though. Has improved a hell of a lot over the years.

He did look poor, there is a interview with him where he says the Cunningham fight made him change his style,

He says he used to be to macho because of his size and try walk people down but when Cunningham floored him he realised if Cunningham who was really a cruiser weight could do it a heavy weight could so he changed style .

squinn2912

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I'm not far wrong actually forget about AVP he's a tiny heavyweight on todays world , old and off the Jesus juice,


AJ is hit 7 times per round on average since turning pro
Fury is hit 6 per round on average since turning pro
Wilder is hit 7.5 times per round average since turning pro

These stats can be misleading for example it does not tell you what type of shots there being hit with ,

Wilder has 40 fights so he done a hell of a lot of learning on the job as pro early on, and to be fair he can afford to take a punch becaue if he lands ONE its over,

Fury also started his career as a completely different fighter he use to go in an slug it out, he says so himself that the fight with Steve Cunningham where he was dropped and in trouble is what made him change his style and that was his 22nd fight , Since then he has changed his style and looked great

AJ first 14 fights after wining Olympic gold didn't go outside 3 rounds and only 2 made it out of two rounds , he done great blasting people out

My point is sats are good if you use recent ones no point looking back at a stat that covers there whole career when all 3 had very different starts as Pro's and grew in different ways since then ,

Best to look at recent stats because that tells you where they are now and what happens when they fight high competition ,

Look as I said only time will tell but RECENT stats point to him being hittable more so than the other two ,

Again I don't know why you think I don't like AJ i'm just calling what I see
He can still beat both of course but I fancy Wilder to land on him as other do only difference being if Wilder does its lights out ,

I have to say I'm enjoying this debate as much as many of the boxing matches we've discussed. Keep at it lads!

squinn2912

Moving on a bit. Here’s Dillian’s take on Deontay;

Shots Fired!🔥
#WHYTE on #WILDER 🗣
"DEONTAY WILDER DOESN’T IMPRESS ME!
Plenty of people seemed to be raving about Wilder’s knockout victory over Dominic Breazeale at the weekend.
But Breazeale is exactly the kind of guy you fight when you are trying to look good. How the hell can he be number four in the WBC rankings and the mandatory challenger? What has he achieved in his career? He’s far from the top level."

"He’s a nobody who only had three fights against other nobodies in the last three years and it’s a disgrace that he was mandatory. The only reason Wilder has such a high KO rate is cos he has faced a bunch of cabbages"

He may have a point

megadodge

If you keep digging at this rate, you'll be saying “G'day” to Crocodile Dundee pretty soon.

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I'm not far wrong actually

Wrong is wrong. And you're dead wrong!

You said "There is no question AJ gets hit more than other elite level fighters"

In two of the three defensive categories Joshua was no. 1.
Unsurprisingly, you only quoted the one where he was no. 2, which still proves you wrong.

These stats can be misleading

I had a great laugh reading that.

The guy who brought stats into the debate suddenly has to do a very abrupt about turn when he belatedly realises that those very stats are proving him wrong. Very wrong.

That must have been a right sickner.

for example it does not tell you what type of shots there being hit with

But they do.
'Opponents Power Punch Connect Percentage' does exactly what it says on the tin.

he can afford to take a punch

Nope, he can't. If Joshua connects clean on Wilder's less than stellar chin, he's a goner. And if he actually survives, his naturally panicky nature will resurface with a vengance and he'll be running like a thief for however long the fight lasts.

AJ first 14 fights after wining Olympic gold didn't go outside 3 rounds and only 2 made it out of two rounds , he done great blasting people out..

My point is sats are good if you use recent ones no point looking back at a stat that covers there whole career when all 3 had very different starts as Pro's and grew in different ways since then

If you're trying to show how the short earlier fights can skew the defensive statistics, you're dead right. Except...

Wilder had 32 fights after winning Olympic bronze, none of which went beyond 4 rounds. 18 didn't finish the first round.

You don't have to be a mathematician to see whose stats are skewed the more.

RECENT stats point to him being hittable more so than the other two

Really? Let's see them then!

fonecrusher1

squinn2912 wrote: »

Moving on a bit. Here’s Dillian’s take on Deontay;

Shots Fired!��
#WHYTE on #WILDER ��
"DEONTAY WILDER DOESN’T IMPRESS ME!
Plenty of people seemed to be raving about Wilder’s knockout victory over Dominic Breazeale at the weekend.
But Breazeale is exactly the kind of guy you fight when you are trying to look good. How the hell can he be number four in the WBC rankings and the mandatory challenger? What has he achieved in his career? He’s far from the top level."

"He’s a nobody who only had three fights against other nobodies in the last three years and it’s a disgrace that he was mandatory. The only reason Wilder has such a high KO rate is cos he has faced a bunch of cabbages"

He may have a point

I agree with him personally. When i first heard Wilder was fighting Breazeale my first thought was nice bit of target practice before he fights someone who can seriously challenge him. Whyte would be a much bigger challenge to Wilder if they ever shared a ring.

Speaking of practice fights I just learned that Tyson Fury's next fight is against a man ranked 57th in the world and only no.8 in Germany???!!!

:pac:

Morrison J

Whyte doesn't have a leg to stand on. Has turned down Pulev and Ortiz in the last year. Wilder taking on challenges that he easily could've ducked in Ortiz and Fury.

yourdeadwright

megadodge wrote: »

If you keep digging at this rate, you'll be saying “G'day” to Crocodile Dundee pretty soon.

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I'm not far wrong actually

Wrong is wrong. And you're dead wrong!

You said "There is no question AJ gets hit more than other elite level fighters"

In two of the three defensive categories Joshua was no. 1.
Unsurprisingly, you only quoted the one where he was no. 2, which still proves you wrong.

These stats can be misleading

I had a great laugh reading that.

The guy who brought stats into the debate suddenly has to do a very abrupt about turn when he belatedly realises that those very stats are proving him wrong. Very wrong.

That must have been a right sickner.

for example it does not tell you what type of shots there being hit with

But they do.
'Opponents Power Punch Connect Percentage' does exactly what it says on the tin.

he can afford to take a punch

Nope, he can't. If Joshua connects clean on Wilder's less than stellar chin, he's a goner. And if he actually survives, his naturally panicky nature will resurface with a vengance and he'll be running like a thief for however long the fight lasts.

AJ first 14 fights after wining Olympic gold didn't go outside 3 rounds and only 2 made it out of two rounds , he done great blasting people out..

My point is sats are good if you use recent ones no point looking back at a stat that covers there whole career when all 3 had very different starts as Pro's and grew in different ways since then

If you're trying to show how the short earlier fights can skew the defensive statistics, you're dead right. Except...

Wilder had 32 fights after winning Olympic bronze, none of which went beyond 4 rounds. 18 didn't finish the first round.

You don't have to be a mathematician to see whose stats are skewed the more.

RECENT stats point to him being hittable more so than the other two

Really? Let's see

I qouted the one that the conversation was about how many times they get hit ,

As i qouted already just look at when he fought Wlad to when Fury did and ull see a difference ,

Never said short fights skewed it ? My point was they all camen into being pros at different level and learned and progressed in different ways so its impossible to judge or compare there whole carears as there so different ,

Again in recent fights aginst better oppoents AJ gets hit more often , for example Wlad hit him more than he did Fury , (Iv already show u number for the Povetkin fight and the other)

So thats why im off the opinion that Wilder lands on him clean and puts him away , Id slightly favour AJ v Fury because of styles

Time shall tell all ,

Of course its heavey weight boxing so no one should be surprised no matter the outcome but ill be betting on Wilder

nacho libre

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

I agree with him personally. When i first heard Wilder was fighting Breazeale my first thought was nice bit of target practice before he fights someone who can seriously challenge him. Whyte would be a much bigger challenge to Wilder if they ever shared a ring.



:pac:

I don't think he would be as great a danger as Ortiz was. Wilder has fought tomato cans, but Ortiz was a credible opponent. As was Fury! Whyte was fortunate to beat Parker in the end. I think Whyte be will beaten by the top 3 heavyweights fairly easily

nacho libre

yourdeadwright wrote: »

As i qouted already just look at when he fought Wlad to when Fury did and ull see a difference ,

That's due to Fury frustrating Wlad for much of the fight due to his slick head and body movement. There is little argument that Fury is the naturally more skill full of the trio, so the comparison is misleading. Joshua is still a decent defensive fighter, if he wasn't Wlad would have been able to finish him when he had him seriously hurt, but Joshua managed to avoid a lot of his punches- if he was as easy to hit as you suggest this would not have happened

fonecrusher1

nacho libre wrote: »

Whyte was fortunate to beat Parker in the end. I think Whyte be will beaten by the top 3 heavyweights fairly easily

I never saw the Whyte v Parker fight last year so I just watched it on youtube. Holy moly Whyte was a lucky boy in the end. He was shattered and Parker had the beating of him in the final round. If there had been another 30 seconds left he was gone. Some fight.

normanoffside

nacho libre wrote: »

I don't think he would be as great a danger as Ruiz was. Wilder has fought tomato cans, but Ortiz was a credible opponent. As was Fury! Whyte was fortunate to beat Parker in the end. I think Whyte be will beaten by the top 3 heavyweights fairly easily

As bad as Joe Joyce is, I still think he beats Whyte. He just outlasts him IMO.

I have no idea why people think White is a credible contender. Apart from a lucky win against Parker, His best wins are Lucas Browne and Derek Chisora.

Dave Allen took him 10 rounds.

squinn2912

normanoffside wrote: »

As bad as Joe Joyce is, I still think he beats Whyte. He just outlasts him IMO.

I have no idea why people think White is a credible contender. Apart from a lucky win against Parker, His best wins are Lucas Browne and Derek Chisora.

Dave Allen took him 10 rounds.

The biggest claim is that he got a decent lucky shot in against Joshua. But that said if Takam, Povetkin (when did he last win a good fight off juice?), Molina and Breazeale can get title shots then Whyte is as worthy as those

yourdeadwright

nacho libre wrote: »

yourdeadwright wrote: »

As i qouted already just look at when he fought Wlad to when Fury did and ull see a difference ,

That's due to Fury frustrating Wlad for much of the fight due to his slick head and body movement. There is little argument that Fury is the naturally more skill full of the trio, so the comparison is misleading. Joshua is still a decent defensive fighter, if he wasn't Wlad would have been able to finish him when he had him seriously hurt, but Joshua managed to avoid a lot of his punches- if he was as easy to hit as you suggest this would not have happened

Im not saying he is bad , i just think out of the 3 he gets hit the most , Fury has the best movment and because of Wilder one shot power people are more wary ,
Aj is easy top 3 no question about it , i just think Wilder will connect like other's have but Wilder will put him away ,

Iv no agenda or so not lile AJ its just how i see a fight with Wilder going i think AJ style matches better v Fury

yourdeadwright

normanoffside wrote: »

nacho libre wrote: »

I don't think he would be as great a danger as Ruiz was. Wilder has fought tomato cans, but Ortiz was a credible opponent. As was Fury! Whyte was fortunate to beat Parker in the end. I think Whyte be will beaten by the top 3 heavyweights fairly easily

As bad as Joe Joyce is, I still think he beats Whyte. He just outlasts him IMO.

I have no idea why people think White is a credible contender. Apart from a lucky win against Parker, His best wins are Lucas Browne and Derek Chisora.

Dave Allen took him 10 rounds.

I think Whyte beats Joyce 10 out of 10 times and i dont rate Whyte , hes a good gate keeper

Mad to think Joyce is the older of the two

akelly02

Morrison J wrote: »

Whyte doesn't have a leg to stand on. Has turned down Pulev and Ortiz in the last year. Wilder taking on challenges that he easily could've ducked in Ortiz and Fury.

Povetkin was made also . Wilder is the one that wants to unify . Joshua doesn’t seem keen tbh

selectamatic

akelly02 wrote: »

Povetkin was made also . Wilder is the one that wants to unify . Joshua doesn’t seem keen tbh

That doesn't seem to ring true in any interview AJ gives. Even Hearn seems to want it.

squinn2912

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I think Whyte beats Joyce 10 out of 10 times and i dont rate Whyte , hes a good gate keeper

Mad to think Joyce is the older of the two

I think so too. Joyce is so slow

normanoffside

It seems Joyce is fighting Bryant Jennings. Considering that Jennings had Rivas well beat until he got careless and KOed in the 12th, it should give a good idea of the levels of Joyce and Whyte.

ASOT

Joyce is stuck in quicksand, British level fighter and nothing more imo. He'll be taken apart by the majority of the big guns from takem up to fury.

squinn2912

ASOT wrote: »

Joyce is stuck in quicksand, British level fighter and nothing more imo. He'll be taken apart by the majority of the big guns from takem up to fury.

I don’t think Takam would take him apart. Fairly even or Joyce win for me.

yourdeadwright

ASOT wrote: »

Joyce is stuck in quicksand, British level fighter and nothing more imo. He'll be taken apart by the majority of the big guns from takem up to fury.

I tend to agree with you,
I think Joyce looks that part because he is big and looks in shape but as you said he is so so slow,

I'd actually slightly favour the winner of Gorman v Dubios to beat Joyce, although it would be a close fight ,

squinn2912

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I tend to agree with you,
I think Joyce looks that part because he is big and looks in shape but as you said he is so so slow,

I'd actually slightly favour the winner of Gorman v Dubios to beat Joyce, although it would be a close fight ,

I think that's an excellent match up. I think Dubois would beat him but he could do with improving his defense a lot. He's got good power and faster hands. Gorman is harder to say. I think he's the better boxer of the three but smaller. Lots of interesting fights. Joyce fighting Ustinov was such a soft, easy option. He needs to be taking on the British belt now if he has designs on elite level. Can anyone remember how long Toni Yoka is banned? I want to see a bit more of him I think he adds a bit to the division.

yourdeadwright

squinn2912 wrote: »

I think that's an excellent match up. I think Dubois would beat him but he could do with improving his defense a lot. He's got good power and faster hands. Gorman is harder to say. I think he's the better boxer of the three but smaller. Lots of interesting fights. Joyce fighting Ustinov was such a soft, easy option. He needs to be taking on the British belt now if he has designs on elite level. Can anyone remember how long Toni Yoka is banned? I want to see a bit more of him I think he adds a bit to the division.

Hey got a 1 year ban and that was last July so should be nearly done,
He looks like one who could emerge in the next few years ,

ASOT

squinn2912 wrote: »

I don’t think Takam would take him apart. Fairly even or Joyce win for me.

Yeah I think I got a bit carried away but you get the point I was making anyway!

yourdeadwright wrote: »

I tend to agree with you,
I think Joyce looks that part because he is big and looks in shape but as you said he is so so slow,

I'd actually slightly favour the winner of Gorman v Dubios to beat Joyce, although it would be a close fight ,

It's mental how slow he is, the fight last week was a shambles. He's getting in aswell at 34.

I think either of them would win myself, fancy Gorman to beat Dubios also. Cracking fight that is.

yourdeadwright

ASOT wrote: »

Yeah I think I got a bit carried away but you get the point I was making anyway!



It's mental how slow he is, the fight last week was a shambles. He's getting in aswell at 34.

I think either of them would win myself, fancy Gorman to beat Dubios also. Cracking fight that is.

Its strange because he has to be athletic to do the capoeira stuff he does

Maybe he just freeze's in the ring or thinks to much about throwing, Iv seen plenty of lads in gyms hit pads like the flash and then turn into stiff robot once the have someone throwing back in front of them ,

Ye fair play to both of them taking that fight so early,

ASOT

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its strange because he has to be athletic to do the capoeira stuff he does

Maybe he just freeze's in the ring or thinks to much about throwing, Iv seen plenty of lads in gyms hit pads like the flash and then turn into stiff robot once the have someone throwing back in front of them ,

Ye fair play to both of them taking that fight so early,

That's what doesn't make sense he shouldn't be that slow and I don't think he can work it out of himself if it's a mental thing as it's been too long. Same way pricey can't work out the hesitation. It says pity because he seems like a nice chap but he'll never get anywhere with the way he's been fighting.

yourdeadwright

ASOT wrote: »

That's what doesn't make sense he shouldn't be that slow and I don't think he can work it out of himself if it's a mental thing as it's been too long. Same way pricey can't work out the hesitation. It says pity because he seems like a nice chap but he'll never get anywhere with the way he's been fighting.

Its shame because he should have all the tools,

He is kind of the opposite to Gorman who has all the mental side of the game but will probably fail at the highest level due to not being physically big enough ,

squinn2912

yourdeadwright wrote: »

Its shame because he should have all the tools,

He is kind of the opposite to Gorman who has all the mental side of the game but will probably fail at the highest level due to not being physically big enough ,

I'm not so sure he has all the tools. He is huge and therefore powerful. He fought in the olympics at about 30 and that takes away a bit for me. I'm not so sure if many who stay amateur so long end up doing as well in the pro game. I think when he fights someone real he will remind everyone of Audley. Another one who believes his own hype. I fancy if Dubois comes through Gorman that he will ko Joyce. I think Dave Allen gives him a good fight. Whyte likely beats him. That's before he even looks at the elite end of things. The other noteworthy thing is that he's older than nearly all of these guys. Total fraud.

yourdeadwright

squinn2912 wrote: »

I'm not so sure he has all the tools. He is huge and therefore powerful. He fought in the olympics at about 30 and that takes away a bit for me. I'm not so sure if many who stay amateur so long end up doing as well in the pro game. I think when he fights someone real he will remind everyone of Audley. Another one who believes his own hype. I fancy if Dubois comes through Gorman that he will ko Joyce. I think Dave Allen gives him a good fight. Whyte likely beats him. That's before he even looks at the elite end of things. The other noteworthy thing is that he's older than nearly all of these guys. Total fraud.

To be clear I meant physical tools,

I don't rate him and I agree with you I don't think he ever get near elite level

Thankfully for him he will make some decent money fighting Dubois and Gorman and Allen ,

normanoffside

squinn2912 wrote: »

I'm not so sure he has all the tools. He is huge and therefore powerful. He fought in the olympics at about 30 and that takes away a bit for me. I'm not so sure if many who stay amateur so long end up doing as well in the pro game. I think when he fights someone real he will remind everyone of Audley. Another one who believes his own hype. I fancy if Dubois comes through Gorman that he will ko Joyce. I think Dave Allen gives him a good fight. Whyte likely beats him. That's before he even looks at the elite end of things. The other noteworthy thing is that he's older than nearly all of these guys. Total fraud.

Don’t get me wrong. Joyce is terrible. I only started this Joyce talk in reference to Whyte who I believe is also terrible.
Joyce is big, strong, fit and sturdy and that would get him a long way in the ‘sub elite’ class.

There are only 3 elites at the moment and they are miles ahead of the sub elites. You could have had Ortiz in between the two classes there for a few years but I reckon he is too old now and drops back into the sub elites.

Gorman and Dubois will never crack into that top 3 class either imo. They just haven’t got anything to take on the 3 top guys.