Heavyweight Boxing

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490534#Comment_120490534

You said it. A whole lot a delaying tactics.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120490599#Comment_120490599

I’m not sure what’s up with him. That Usyk fight was some opportunity for him. Could have been made. Here we are nearly 6 months on and nothing set up. Though it was similar for the second and third Wilder fights they were about 18 months apart and I can’t really remember why.

Panthro

I've grown disinterested in Fury,AJ,Wilder, they're wafflers.

I want to see Usyk vs Ruiz.

Or Usyk vs Dubois.

Basically Usyk vs anyone outside of the wafflers trio.

Butson

This could be a super era for Heavyweight boxing if these guys would actually fight each other.

Painful.

ebbsy

Eddie Hearn running down Zhang in an interview I see.

Then he should have no problem with AJ fighting him then ?

squinn2912

What did Eddie say about Zhang? It’s a wonder he didn’t take him on up until now!

Yea the top 10 dont fight one another nearly enough never mind the top 5. They all seem to crowd around the likes of Eric Molina or Gerald Washington. Easy touches.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491329#Comment_120491329

Eddie Hearn on Joe Joyce: “If you can’t beat Zhilei Zhang, you have absolutely no chance to win a world title… Reality is Joyce is not an elite heavyweight. ‘Oh he’d steamroll Anthony Joshua.’ The speed of AJ compared to Zhang - AJ would ping him absolutely ever

eagle eye

Hearn talks some amount of tosh but it's all about getting the biggest purses. He might be trying to set up an AJ Vs Joyce fight.

reclose

If Fury is putting obstacles up for that tournament then just exclude him.

Usyk, Wilder, AJ and then one of Zhang / Ruiz / Joyce.

Or Ruiz vs Zhang in the summer to decide that last spot.

I’d like to see AJ vs Zhang now. That would be a good test for AJ.

OmegaGene

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491644#Comment_120491644

who said he is putting obstacles up for the rumoured tournament

eddie hearn said it is something they are looking into and would like to do it, no negotiations have taken place.

george warren said it is something they would be interested in but as of yet no discussions have taken place and fury has had no offers from anyone.

Hearn also said in an interview that maybe aj posted the thing about not fighting until december to get people talking, he said they will be discussing a big fight and part of that contract may include not allowing him to fight but if not they would love to fight again in july.

This tournament is only a rumour likely started by hearn or another promoter and they let simon jordan start it so they can walk away like nothing happened if it goes pear shaped, the chances of this happening are very slim, you have four fighters all with egos wanting maximum money and they will argue over ring walks and corners etc, it is a pipe dream but eddie and the other promoters would get a big slice of cash

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120491413#Comment_120491413

I think thats doing Zhang a bit of a disservice but yea he’s a big crude lump that has no tank but he hits very hard. Calling Joyce an elite heavyweight on the strength of him beating Parker and Dubois is foolhardy. Joshua with a bit of grit would beat Joyce for me in a difficult fight.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492191#Comment_120492191

Joshua could surely do as effective, if not more effective a number on Joyce than Zhang. Zhang was tired throughout, and fought in spurts. Had he been fitter he gets Joe out in 3 rds tops. AJ is fitter. Punches as hard and as clean as well.

Cyrus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492191#Comment_120492191

what joyce had done up to the weekend was enough to put him in the top 5 or 6, which speaks more about the dearth of real heavyweight talent than anything else.

Rjd2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489652#Comment_120489652

even with the Saudi money could they keep all those egos happy?

And also if somehow this was signed off that would mean these 4 would not fight until December which is ugh.

What would we be left with until then ? Joyce, Zhang and Hrgovic? Good fights but still.

Rjd2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120489366#Comment_120489366

Joe is not cynical enough to swerve the rematch for better or worse. He could have sat on his ranking and avoided Zhang but he wanted to fight so while it might make sense to swerve the rematch he's just not built like that. To sound for his own good is Joe.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492221#Comment_120492221

I dunno I think he would be tough work for Joshua but I think Joshua would win. Possibly on points.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492718#Comment_120492718

But his lack of speed, lack of defense and lack of explosiveness is going to really hurt him. I’m just not seeing how he stylistically is a tough fight for AJ.

Will he even be as physically strong in the clinch, for example. I’d see AJ teeing off on him with ease. At least he should be able to.

Rjd2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492891#Comment_120492891

Styles make fights. Guys like Franklin and Usyk are much harder to hit than Joyce. Joshua would have a field day with Joyce and unlike Zhang would not tire towards the end. I think people are forgetting that Joshua is really good and he won plenty of rounds v Usyk. He's still a top 5 heavyweight in the world ffs.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492916#Comment_120492916

Exactly. We all know AJ is far from the complete package, but I do think stylistically he’s real bad news for a sitting duck like Joyce. Punching wise in terms of cleanness, mechanics and power, he gets right through to Joe effortlessly. Plus, Joe being so uptight and stiff, and the exact height where AJ can deliver his best power…

I think one best fights to be made is Fury/Zhang. Two big men, and Zhang can punch. Zhang says Fury has a weak chin and won’t take what Joe took. Fury’s chin isn’t that good, but he has good stamina and can recover.

Folks pointing to Wilder, who landed barely a handful of real power shots on Fury, isn’t a true barometer for what Zhang could do. But he’d want to do it early, because if he cannot, he tires and Fury mauls him.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492974#Comment_120492974

Well I think Joyce is better than Saturday night showed, particularly against an orthodox boxer. So he would get his own jab and volume going better. Joshua would need to move well from side to side and throw but I think he is strong enough to push Joyce back and powerful enough to hurt him, somewhere. I dont think Joshua would like those hooks at all. Joyce gets through enough to keep him honest but I thinkJoshua would have enough to win a tight enough fight. Not sure about a KO.

I think Fury has wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy too much movement for Zhang. He can mix stances as well and Zhang wouldn’t have nearly the speed for him. Meanwhile he would actually aim his punches to get through the guard better and has the handspeed to keep Zhang guessing. KO, maybe on cuts as well or a massive points shut out win. Zhang may well be stopped on his stool though exhaustion. No problem for Fury.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493393#Comment_120493393

I’d make Fury a very warm favorite v Zhang. I just think the first few rds would be interesting, from a punchers’ chance.

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493424#Comment_120493424

I think Fury has a good look during Round 1 and negates Zhang, clipping him towards the end of the round. In 2 Zhang comes out like a bull and might be able to push Fury back, similar to Whyte’s tactics. Fury complains to the referee. By the end of Round 2 Zhang will have slowed already. In Round 3 Fury works the jab a lot and Zhang lunges around missing by some distance, beaten to the punch. Round 4 Fury hits him with beef, Zhang takes a few big punches and cuts/swelling an issue. If Zhang makes it through the 4th then Fury KOs him in 5 as he is too slow to get out of the way and has no energy to move forward. Other than that Referee steps in when Zhang stops defending himself.

eagle eye

People are talking about AJ like it's five years ago. He's not the same fighter, not even close. He's a shadow of that guy.

He doesn't have a chin anymore and he's afraid to get heavily involved because of it.

walshb

He doesn’t have to get heavily “involved.” He has enough height, reach and length to throw hard accurate shots at the mummy to either stop him or beat him up all night.

and even knowing that AJ is not the same fighter he was 5 years ago doesn’t lessen his chances here hugely. 5 years ago I’d have been 90 percent confident. I’d be 70 percent now.

squinn2912

I think id be at about 60-70% on Joshua winning that contest. Joyce throws enough to bother him and he doesn’t stop. He’d have fought on until now with Zhang even if the thing was going against him.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494309#Comment_120494309

Yes, he'd have fought on, but as I said, Zhang was taking breathers and was working sporadically. AJ would be fitter no doubt.

Simple: A fitter Zang trying harder and that fight is over in 3-4 rds on Saturday.

Looking at Zhang after 2 rds he seemed to be showing cardio issues

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494329#Comment_120494329

That’s true but he may not hit that hard, be that committed and importantly he’s not a southpaw. I think a bit too much has been made of that but it does make a difference.

I wonder what Zhang would have been like 5 or 6 years ago against the top in the division. My feeling is much the same

OmegaGene

in round one of the joyce fight the pawing he was doing was a strange tactic for me

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494662#Comment_120494662

Do you mean from Zhang?

OmegaGene

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494694#Comment_120494694

No joyce tapping his hand constantly it was a strange move for me against a southpaw, Zhang was finding his range

maybe joyce just lacks movement and that was his only option

Eurox6

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494329#Comment_120494329

But that not how it works in real life is it,For example if Zhang threw the left hand more there's every chance Joyce gets a better read on it and avoids it, Zhang threw 284 less shots than Joyce but landed 18 more power shots,

Him picking his punches is what worked to his advantage ,

AJ can't /won't step into the pocket & engage anymore with more than one shot , maximum two ,so there is no way he beats Joyce in a fashion Zhang did ,

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494329#Comment_120494329

Its not about fitness, Aj is afraid to let his hands go,

AJ threw 175 shots in the first 6 round v Franklin ,

Zhang threw 180 & round 6 was stopped way short,

normanoffside

Zhang’s draw with Jerry Forrest a few years ago showed where he really is at world level. I’m afraid I really overestimated Joyce.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495121#Comment_120495121

You’re overestimating Joyce I think. Yes, possibility if Zhang threw more , Joe could read and defend. But something tells me that the reverse happens; that Zhang lands more and gets the job done quicker.

Anyway, for me, his “picking” his punches was as much to do with him not having the energy to throw more freely as opposed to a deliberate and thought out plan.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495143#Comment_120495143

Not with you. I simply said that if Zhang was fitter he likely engages more and gets Joe out there earlier.

Yes, I get your view on AJ and his commitment as regards offence. I just think you are overegging it. I reckon AJ today still can get off enough potent offence to take Joe apart.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495259#Comment_120495259

He might beat Joe but he isn't going in there and going after him early, That carnation of AJ is gone for years now ,

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495445#Comment_120495445

No need to go after him. Joe likely presses the forward action and AJ punches him hard in the face.

Sunny Disposition

The Joshua of a few years ago would beat Joyce comfortably one would think, it's very hard to know now. It's amazing how Joshua changed post the Ruiz defeat.

OmegaGene

https://youtu.be/a5uyXYeofxo

spokesperson for the skills challenge has his say on the mega fights

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120495259#Comment_120495259

If Zhang were fitter he’d be lighter and maybe not as powerful. Trying to get the blanket to cover the feet and the shoulders isn’t easy.

I think Joyce gives Joshua a tough night but I think some time during every round Joshua would get a really good dig in and that would be telling.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496492#Comment_120496492

He doesn’t necessarily need to be lighter to be fitter. Fitness is as much innate/natural as anything. Lungs/heart/breathing etc. The chap has shown cardio issues in previous fights. For some athletes, cardio fitness just doesn’t come as naturally.

eagle eye

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496646#Comment_120496646

For twelve rounds there's nobody that has it naturally. You have to put in the hard yards to be fit enough to go twelve rounds.

As for AJ, it's quite clear he's afraid to engage for long and I think it's because he's worried about getting stopped.

He'd have a reach advantage over Joyce which would suit him as he's happy these days to stay on the outside.

squinn2912

I think Joshua would be able to beat Joyce at range on points. Joyce is tough but not a huge hitter. I think Joshua throws better quality too.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120496864#Comment_120496864

Pretty much how I see it. The biggest deciding factor is probably their speed difference. Speed of hands, speed of reactions, speed of feet. Joe is slower!!!!!

and I don’t think he has a chance to do damage with 1, 2 shots. He hasn’t got that fight changing power, even if AJs chin is iffy!!!!

squinn2912

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497255#Comment_120497255

Yea that’s true. That said Joe is braver of late and has more belief in himself, although he may feel inferior to Joshua. He has a big advantage with chin too so there are avenues for him to win the fight and that’s why I give him a 3-4/10 chance.

squinn2912

Just finally getting caught up on the Joshua Franklin fight. Thought Joshua looked fairly comfortable throughout. Franklin did quite well and has very fast hands. It was a peculiar match for Joshua as it could have gone wrong against a guy who is smaller than him, with quick hands. 10th round was great action and Joshua caught Franklin well. That uppercut is very well thrown. I didn’t think Franklin ever looked like he was troubling Joshua

A bigger stand up fool like Gary Cornish is more what I was expecting from the camp. He struggles with fellas shorter than him with quick hands. Franklin took a lot of shots very well. Joshua didn’t really follow his punches and was always partially committed but I understand that he’s lost 3 in 5 so I forgive caution. I dont think a lay off until December suits him but he might yet fight in the summer.

yourdeadwright

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497255#Comment_120497255

Your not wrong at all but i just think personally that the Joes constant pressure would get to AJ even without big punching power

AJ panics when anybody gets close to him these days, he get rigid & stiffens up, which is exhausting, I think Aj would panic & blow a casket,

But your right in saying he has everything in his tool box to stay long & beat Joyce i just don't think he has the head for it ,

OmegaGene

I think watching joyce in the past would give Aj a massive confidence boost going into a fight with him, ruiz was a surprise as a late change and Usyk is just so fast Aj got a fried brain just from trying to watch him

aj would beat joyce at a canter in my opinion

squinn2912

The whole thing about the last Joshua fight was very understated. No fireworks, he wasnt calm during the ring walk and he didn’t really go after a big statement win. But he got the win and that was all-important. It might settle him down again and he could go after opponents like he has done before. I still think he could have got to Usyk better if he didn’t try to box him but Usyk won that on his own merit twice so he needs to be given the credit. The pre-Wlad Joshua was the best version to fight Usyk for me and the best Version Joshua has been. Wlad might have been his best performance regardless of age but he’s not been the same since. You could argue that Ruiz was more of a turning point, if only he’d not lunged in unprotected, if only that one big hit hadn’t scrambled his brains, if only Millar hadn’t failed the drug test

OmegaGene

so who are we thinking for fury next ? im going with Ruiz on July 22nd in a uk stadium

https://youtu.be/sHZ6VHlz38g