RTE seeking fees from Sky and cable operators for its channels

Wabbit Ears

CalamariFritti wrote:

RTE should pay Sky for carrying it.

Tbh you're kinda right. RTE really tops up its coffers through advertising and sky/virgin are providing those customers. Advertising profit sharing is actually more common than you might think especially for inserted adverisements on on demand services and the like.

jimmycrackcorm

mackersdublin wrote:

Plenty of people use an external hard drive to series link and record from their Saorview TVs

I've external drives on my saorview boxes, there is no series link facility. Every episode has to be selected manually for recording in advance.

I don't think RTE have a right to ask sky to pay. We pay the licence money already to view it so it should be RTE responsibility to make sure it is carried.

Elmo

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

CalamariFritti wrote:

RTE should pay Sky for carrying it.

Tbh you're kinda right. RTE really tops up its coffers through advertising and sky/virgin are providing those customers. Advertising profit sharing is actually more common than you might think especially for inserted adverisements on on demand services and the like.

So then every channel carrying ads should pay to be on Sky... but wait that would mean less money going towards programme production.

And many pay TV channels rely on revenue that Sky pay them.

mackersdublin

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I've external drives on my saorview boxes, there is no series link facility. Every episode has to be selected manually for recording in advance.

I mentioned Saorview TVs not boxes. Approved ones will series link

dublinman1990

As nearly every flat panel TV in this country can receive Saorview; would it not make sense for current Sky customers to complement their Sky offering with Saorview by having an aerial in their homes to receive RTÉ? This idea that can only apply to those who want to keep their subscription channels on Sky & want to get RTÉ in other ways especially if they have poor broadband connections near their homes.

Sam Russell

If you can receive Saorview with an aerial and you have a Sky subscription, it is just a question of convenience. Replace the Sky box with a Freesat box and you are sorted - you do not even have to move the sat dish.

If Sky remove RTE from their system, would the Freesat provision, or at least FTA be openly pushed by RTE? I got the impression during the analogue switch off, that RTE did not want to mention the FTA alternative. I could never understand why.

How many Sky subscribers would switch Sky off if there was no RTE? I would imagine that the highest rate demanded by RTE would be about €1 per month, so if 10% of subscribers quit, Sky would miss out hugely. Even at €5 per month, it is of the order of Sky's regular increase every year - so what is the big deal?

Joe Duffy.

Sam Russell wrote: »

If you can receive Saorview with an aerial and you have a Sky subscription, it is just a question of convenience. Replace the Sky box with a Freesat box and you are sorted - you do not even have to move the sat dish.

If Sky remove RTE from their system, would the Freesat provision, or at least FTA be openly pushed by RTE? I got the impression during the analogue switch off, that RTE did not want to mention the FTA alternative. I could never understand why.

How many Sky subscribers would switch Sky off if there was no RTE? I would imagine that the highest rate demanded by RTE would be about €1 per month, so if 10% of subscribers quit, Sky would miss out hugely. Even at €5 per month, it is of the order of Sky's regular increase every year - so what is the big deal?

I recall at the time of ASO A lot of rte commentators didn't know what fee to air sat was and some of them thought it was illegal

More Music

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

Tbh you're kinda right. RTE really tops up its coffers through advertising and sky/virgin are providing those customers. Advertising profit sharing is actually more common than you might think especially for inserted adverisements on on demand services and the like.

So RTE (content provider) should pay Sky (platform) for carriage because it can gain more viewers and in turn more advertising revenue by being on Sky.

And Sky also get more more revenue by an increased subscriber base because RTE are on the platform.

Sam Russell

Joe Duffy. wrote: »

I recall at the time of ASO A lot of rte commentators didn't know what fee to air sat was and some of them thought it was illegal

I remember, on the day of Analogue switch off, Sean O'Rourke, he of the News Dept, had never heard of RTE News Now, and was unaware it was on Saorview, and actually thought that Saorview was being launched that day. Nuts.

I suspect few of RTE employees actually watch Saorview at all, most are on cable or Sky. The same goes for the Irish Times Journos as well. I wonder, do they get a special deal?

Wabbit Ears

More Music wrote: »

So RTE (content provider) should pay Sky (platform) for carriage because it can gain more viewers and in turn more advertising revenue by being on Sky.

And Sky also get more more revenue by an increased subscriber base because RTE are on the platform.

So, hypothetically, rte do change the must carry and sky say "screw you" like virgin did to Eir when they tried increase carriage costs of Eir/BT sport and drop them from their lineup.

RTEs viewership plummets overnight and along with it go the neilson ratings and so the cash from advertisers drops accordingly.

Suddenly now the idea of RTE paying sky to carry the channel again isnt so crazy.

add to that that Sky would then require them to pay a premium for the coveted top spot RTE are in a world of pain.

Of course if VM dropped them RTE would never get the top spot again as TV3, owned by Liberty Global who also own VM, would take the EPG top spot and RTE would never get that back.

In fact, IF RTE do drop the must carry you can bet VM will demote them in the EPG in favour of TV3's offerings.

Personally, I hope RTE do do this and reap what they sow. They are a horrible horrible company to deal with and no company who deals with them have an ounce of good faith towards them. If they weren't state funded they have sunk a long long time ago..

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

The Communications Committee were in session this evening meeting with TV3, Eir, Sky, Virgin Media and Vodafone. Discussion was to include the issue of Retransmission Fees.

Playback of that hearing between the Communication Committee and TV3/platform providers - http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=36973&&CatID=127

Transcript of the hearing - http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/CC22017100300002?opendocument#A00100

RTÉ statement following the Oireachtas Committee hearing on Retransmission fees - http://www.rte.ie/about/en/press-office/statements-speeches/2017/1004/909711-rte-statement-following-joc-hearing/

According to Aisling McCabe, Head of Platforms and Partnerships, RTÉ:

On free Irish content:

"There is no justifiable reason why platforms, such as Virgin or Sky, should get Irish free-to-air channels and content for free. This is content paid for by the Irish audiences, who are then charged again, as customers, to watch this content. Irish content is the most-watched programming on these platforms - and yet these platforms do not give any fair value back to Irish channels so that we can invest in more original Irish content on behalf of Irish audiences.Pay TV platforms routinely pay all sorts of channels and rights holders for the right to charge their customers to access those channels and programming. All RTÉ is seeking is that the same capacity to negotiate is allowed in law for its channels and programming."

On claims of ‘Double-taxation’:

"The ’double-taxation’ argument is misleading. In fact, any ‘double taxation’ of licence fee payers is on the part of pay-TV operators who are asking their customers to pay for access to free-to-air channels as part of their subscription. The current legislation is creating a situation where publicly funded media and indeed TV licence fee payers are indirectly subsidising the commercial activities of hugely profitable international media companies in the Irish market. So, licence fee payers are underwriting and subsidising these profitable platforms because you can’t get RTÉ channels without paying for a bundle. By changing the legislation, RTÉ will have the opportunity to negotiate a fair payment for the value we create for Pay TV operators through our original content."

On the dangers of black-outs:

"The notion of black-outs is a red herring and it is a concern that platforms are talking about blackouts at this early stage when we haven’t had any discussion about fair value which the proposed legislative amendment is all about. The obligation to avoid blackouts is on both parties. RTÉ is not seeking anydiminution on its obligations to be fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory in its dealings with Pay TV Platforms, but simply to level the playing field for negotiations. While RTÉ is universally available for all Irish audiences on Saorview and OTT via the RTÉ Player, we are certainly not in favour of any disruption in service on Pay TV platforms which we don’t believe is in anybody’s interests. In any case, there are existing mechanisms that can be used to mediate between platforms where necessary. However, using these mechanisms would be very much a last resort.

On raising commercial revenue:

"As Ireland’s national public service media, and a not-for-profit organisation, RTÉ is legally required to raise commercial revenue to fund the delivery of our services to the Irish public. RTÉ channels and the original Irish content we create for our channels generate significant value for pay-TV operators and RTÉ is simply looking for the ability to negotiate fair value for our content to protect investment in indigenous programmes."

On the relationship with Pay TV operators:

"RTE has strong relationships with Pay TV operators and other platforms in the Irish market. So, there is no hostility between RTE and platforms. This is just about getting value, on behalf of the licence fee payer, for the content we produce so that RTÉ can reinvest in original Irish content. As per the legislation, RTɒs dealings with Pay TV operators and other platforms will continue to be ‘fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory’".

On the TV3 position:

"Given that they would stand to benefit from the legislative change proposed by RTÉ, TV3’s position around retransmission fees is interesting, particularly given the position of ITV and Channel 4 in the UK. Perhaps, if they had a different owner they would express a different view."

Sam Russell

Clearly there is need for a TV regulator with large teeth.

Should payTV operators be allowed to charge for FTA content? Would a 'fair' re-transmission charge be allowed to Sky? [By that, I mean a basic bouquet of FTA programmes should be available at a fair price for subscribers given that Sky only has to pay for transmission and nothing for content - e.g. about €10 per month].

What happened to Sky charging for HD content for RTE HD channels? [I think there was a problem with people who had HD equipment but no HD subscription not getting RTE in HD - [might be wrong about that].

How much does RTE expect to get from re-transmission charges? Will TV3 be forced to charge as well?

Would such a regulator force TV3 and TG4 to go HD on Saorview if the channels are available on other platforms in HD?

Donal55

Apart from the auld Gaa matches I cannot think of any other programmes I'd watch pn RTE. Its gone the way of print news in this household also. No need for it.

I can get entertainment/ news on plenty of other mediums be it FTA/internet or ppv.

loyatemu

what's the situation with BBC - who pays who in the UK and is it different for the carriage of BBC in Ireland?

flaneur

Until 2014, BBC paid Sky £4.5 million a year that's now been dropped to £0 but I don't think Sky pays them anything. IT certainly didn't tip the other way. ITV did likewise, bringing the carriage costs up to about £10m / year for terrestrial tv in the UK on Sky.

BBC and the other UK major terrestrial channels are transmitted free-to-air on satellite and just integrated into Sky's EPG. They are not paying to be encrypted or anything like that.

I don't think there's any precedent for what RTE are suggesting. I would suspect Sky and others will be telling RTE where to go.

All that will happen is we'll be back to the old days where RTE wasn't on Sky and you'll have a huge drop in viewership. They would want to be very careful to stay on 101, 102, 103 etc. as those are hugely advantageous listings.

Sky's also encrypting RTE to avoid all sorts of issues with rights for programming. That's a huge advantage too for RTE.

Also, if they're going to start charging Sky, I assume they'll want to charge Virgin, Eir, Vodafone and any other cable or IP TV operators too. That would likely just result in RTE being dropped from EPGs entirely too.

In reality, RTE being carried on these systems is a huge advantage to RTE. It's a slight advantage to consumers, but I don't think people would forgo their pay-TV subscriptions to keep RTE, rather they'll just end up having to flip back and forth between their Sky, Virgin, Eir, Vodafone etc service and Saorview which will result in a lot of people not bothering as if you're not in the EPG, you don't exist.

The majority of Irish households watch RTE via Sky or Cable services, so if RTE gets pulled from those you would be looking at decimating their TAM ratings. It would be an utterly stupid move.

It sounds to me like RTE is just desperate for cash and is going to try and pull it in from any source. They would lose huge amounts of advertising revenues if they get pulled from Sky though.

There's very little to stop Sky from just operating Ireland from the UK (or from a post Brexit point of view, theoretically from somewhere else like Sky Germany or some entity in Luxembourg or something). There's no particular reason why they would have to submit to being regulated here. So, there's very little the state could do to force them either.

Basically you'd be looking at increasing your Sky bill by at least €28.61 per year to cover RTE's extra licence fee for the luxury of viewing them through system other than Saorview.

Sky have about 664,000 subscribers in Ireland and over 12 million in the UK. If RTE makes things too awkward by getting the state to impose some kind of aggressive regulation and Brexit makes things even worse, I could see them just pulling out or going to some kind of over-the-top model where they skip Ireland's regulators entirely.

Virgin, Eir etc will all just hike your bill.

Elmo

loyatemu wrote: »

what's the situation with BBC - who pays who in the UK and is it different for the carriage of BBC in Ireland?

AFAIK BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 do not get a fee from pay platforms however all believe they should, Again AFAIK ITV and C5 HD services had carriage costs attached to them. I also think TV3 agreed with RTÉ before being bought by Virgin.

Pay TV platforms all pay for FTA UK channels to be on Irish EPGs.

flaneur

They pay for the UK FTA channels because that was the major selling point of cable here and was the only thing distinguishing it from Sky for many years. In fact, it’s probably what held up the rollout of cable broadband here in the early days. Many of the cable operators in the pre UPC days were happily resting on the fact that they were the only way of getting BBC, ITV and C4.

When Sky cut a deal with those channels to carry them here on the same basis as the cable operators, it caused huge disruption to their business model and they were suddenly in the same boat as every other cable operator in Europe - they had to become serious players in broadband.

So, one could argue that without competition for TV, the cable broadband rollout would have been way slower and that in turn would have never prompted Eir to invest in fibre to cabinet to compete.

I honestly don’t think that RTE, particularly with it being easily available FTA by just tuning in your TV, is likely to be as big a loss to sky as sky would be to RTE.

They may end up shouting themselves in the foot with this and not being able to get the same deal when they come back looking for it having realized their error.

The Cush

Elmo wrote: »

AFAIK BBC, ITV, C4 and C5 do not get a fee from pay platforms however all believe they should, Again AFAIK ITV and C5 HD services had carriage costs attached to them. I also think TV3 agreed with RTÉ before being bought by Virgin.

Since the Digital Economy Bill was passed into legislation this summer the UK primary PSB channels are free to negotiate retransmission fees.

What RTÉ said about TV3's position on fees

On the TV3 position:

"Given that they would stand to benefit from the legislative change proposed by RTÉ, TV3’s position around retransmission fees is interesting, particularly given the position of ITV and Channel 4 in the UK. Perhaps, if they had a different owner they would express a different view."

Sam Russell

I suppose it depends on what will happen if subscribers on Sky decide they have to go Saorview to continue receiving RTE will also discover they could just add Freesat and quit Sky and save a shed load of cash, or whether they just decide to not bother with RTE and miss out on Irish content.

Well, it is a high stakes game. RTE could lose advertisers and Sky could lose subscribers. Both would happen in my view and the amount of each will define the winners and losers. If RTE lose out by a lot, it will herald the Broadcasting Charge and a higher bill for viewers. If Sky lose out, it will mean higher bills for subscribers with a poorer offering and possibly the end of the current payTV offering.

No winners unless Sky pay up.

Of course, Brexit could also play a part.

flaneur

Brexit could play a huge part as I don’t think the UK is going to care about “television without boarders” type stuff as very, very few households in the UK, other than in Northern Ireland actually watch TV from neighboring states and they’re hardly going to be all that concerned about EU citizens in the UK watching continental TV stations, given the anti EU rhetoric in British politics and anti immigration stances etc

So whether Sky Ireland is in the same position as now after 2019 is questionable anyway.

They could easily migrate to Ireland just being on an online only version of Sky Q for example and ditch a lot of rural viewers who don’t have access to fast, uncapped broadband.

Whatever happens it will either mean less choice or higher bills. It’s a high risk game for RTE and it’s a very negative development for Irish television viewers.

Elmo

flaneur wrote: »

Brexit could play a huge part as I don’t think the UK is going to care about “television without boarders” type stuff as very, very few households in the UK, other than in Northern Ireland actually watch TV from neighboring states and they’re hardly going to be all that concerned about EU citizens in the UK watching continental TV stations, given the anti EU rhetoric in British politics and anti immigration stances etc

Ireland will now have to consider weather or not channels from the UK aimed at Irish audiences (advertising opt-outs, PayTV channels) can legally broadcast into Ireland from London.

Wabbit Ears

On the relationship with Pay TV operators:

"RTE has strong relationships with Pay TV operators and other platforms in the Irish market. So, there is no hostility between RTE and platforms.

This statement is so delusional its hilarious.

Sam Russell

There are 4 or more payTV operators in market. If any break ranks, then the others might be forced to follow - depending on what happens with subscribers. If the subscribers go to Freesat/Saorview in droves (like 25% - 50%) payTV will start paying. If the move is 5% or less, then they will not budge on paying and goodbye RTE.

Of course, if the Broadcast Act 2018 intervenes and stipulates that Saorview is a single service, and Take All or None, and stipulates a rate for rebroadcasting, then maybe things might be different. It could also set the minimum resolution for channels, plus a few other things people might like. [Not holding my breath on any of these].

Nuclear buttons to be pressed by someone?

STB.

I'd go with the nuclear option.

Sky initially dropped the retransmission fees that the BBC were lumbered with from £10m to £4.5m a few years back. The BBC then got those fees to zero by threathening to charge for their content and that certainly changed their quite similar tune in Sky.

RTE is well clear in the viewer ratings across all platforms in Ireland.

They have no obligation to offer these services for free if the must offer rule is relaxed. Thats the way it should be. Providing free content to profiteering foreign subscription TV services is laughable. Virgin and Sky make large amounts of money by packaging content under the guise of platform neutrality.

Subscribing to pay tv is a personal choice. You dont have to pay subscription companies to watch RTE etc. Its free to air.

RTE need to up the PR war (and thats what it is) by telling Sky there will be no renegotiation if they do decide to do that.

Tigerandahalf

When will the outcome of this be declared?

RTE have a strong hand when so many of the top programmes are on free to air.

There must be serious lobbying going on from all sides.

Where is the future for Sky in Ireland? They don't own any broadband infrastructure.
I think in the uk they are pushing towards transmission over fibre.

I'd imagine future building projects like big apartment complexes will cater for fibre only and developers will have no need to involve Sky.

Elmo

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

When will the outcome of this be declared?

RTE have a strong hand when so many of the top programmes are on free to air.

There must be serious lobbying going on from all sides.

Where is the future for Sky in Ireland? They don't own any broadband infrastructure.
I think in the uk they are pushing towards transmission over fibre.

I'd imagine future building projects like big apartment complexes will cater for fibre only and developers will have no need to involve Sky.

Storm in a tea cup nothing will happen on this. Just watch.

The Cush

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

When will the outcome of this be declared?

When the contents of the new Broadcasting Amendment Bill are decided on and then through the various stages of the Oireachtas legislative process to final enactment. The current Act took just over a year to get through the process once published.

General Scheme of the Broadcasting -Amendment- Bill 2017, pre-legislative, attached

icdg

flaneur wrote: »

Brexit could play a huge part as I don’t think the UK is going to care about “television without boarders” type stuff as very, very few households in the UK, other than in Northern Ireland actually watch TV from neighboring states and they’re hardly going to be all that concerned about EU citizens in the UK watching continental TV stations, given the anti EU rhetoric in British politics and anti immigration stances etc

Ultimately an arrangement will be found for licensing UK channels here. It will possibly affect the Sky EPG, in that if UK channels have to go through a specific licensing process here (and pay a levy to the BAI) they may not bother doing so. I am not talking here the stations actually targeting Ireland - they will be ultimately looked after (and that is being foreseen in that draft legislation). But smaller players not targeting Ireland might simply disappear off the EPG. It might actually cause more problems for BBC carriage than any other major player, because the BBC will not be in a position to apply for an Irish license.

flaneur wrote: »

They pay for the UK FTA channels because that was the major selling point of cable here and was the only thing distinguishing it from Sky for many years. In fact, it’s probably what held up the rollout of cable broadband here in the early days. Many of the cable operators in the pre UPC days were happily resting on the fact that they were the only way of getting BBC, ITV and C4.

Telecom (Eir), when it part owned Cablelink did not want it in the telecommunications industry,end of, though Cablelink went ahead and did its own small scale trials anyway. That’s one of the reasons cable internet was so late to market as Telecom was absolutely intent on keeping Cablelink out of that business and a policy objective behind the sale to ntl was to break that link.

Elmo

STB. wrote: »

RTE need to up the PR war (and thats what it is) by telling Sky there will be no renegotiation if they do decide to do that.

RTÉ are in a very bad place in terms of PR. If you take their spin on "special events" in 2016 most of the money was taken from other deparments in RTÉ if you look closely at their AR for 2016 much of what would have been spent in other areas was moved to specail events for 2016.

RTÉ kept to its promise to reduce its top talent spend by 30% and is on target, however they fail to mention that they increased the wages for the top 10 earners in 2016 by 10%.

Their attitude towards Young People's programming. RTÉ stated in 2016 that it would retain its currently level of spending in 2017, while clearly showing that its commissioning editors for YPP were taking a break until mid-2017. Not only that but they cut their cost for YPP by 25% in 2016, you'd be luckly to see 7.1m spent this year on YPP.

They drop news completely from RTÉ2 without warning, yet were all excited by Newsfeed a year and a half before the axe fell.

15% of people refuse to pay the licence fee, there must be something wrong.

They insist that repeats are part of any channel pointing to Channel 4 but Channel 4 only has 12% repeats in prime time compared to RTÉ ONE's 25%, BBC ONE has 3%.

They took a break in 2017, can you think of anything that RTÉ did that was worthwhile in 2017?

They can complain that they are struggling but when the forget their remit across channels, when even older audiences are noticing the phenomenal amount of repeats, they are completely loosing the battle on all grounds.

And what is it that you'd miss from RTÉ exactly News ... you can get it on TV3 ... Current Affairs ... also on TV3.... GAA .... Sky could always FTV its coverage of the finals and semi-finals .... EastEnders ... its on BBC ONE .... The Late Late Show ... it's audience is down this season .... The Rose of Tralee ... honestly most people would not notice it gone... and so on.

And even then almost all viewers on Pay TV platforms have broadband and can if they want get the RTÉ player, which would only remind them they aren't missing out on all that much.

Tigerandahalf

I don't get all the whinging about rte.
Advertising money is clearly not where it was.

Look at the soccer match last night - live on rte2.
How many that say 'I don't watch rte - I netflix/watch bbc' tuned into watch it last night.
The same for the Dublin Mayo AI final.

NI and Scotland had no free to air rights while Wales only had rights to a Welsh language broadcast on s4c.

It is said above that 15% don't pay the tv licence. How many wouldn't pay income tax if given the choice. Make people pay it.

If rte was pulled from sky people would still want to watch even if only for big once off programmes. Sky could hardly sell their basic packages without the Irish channels.