Government Capital Spending on Infrastructure

spacetweek

You won't be hearing from zetalamba for a week.

munchkin_utd

Theres no need to be too pessimistic.
Munich was suffering in the 1960s with chronic traffic congestion and a severe case of "An Lár- itis" with their tram system which hadnt the capacity then, same as Dublin trying to force 100s of busses through the city centre from every corner of suburbia.

The city then in literally less than a decade built their interconnector under the city centre for suburban trains between the 2 terminus stations(s-bahn), ordered a new fleet of trains, and started with the first few dozen km of U-Bahn which then provided mass transit through the city replacing the undercapacity trams.

Dublin can do something similar too in a relatively short timeframe, but the interconnector aka Dart underground is the key to the whole thing, even if it is a right few euros.

BTW. Munich has just started the building of its second interconnector for a cost of 3.2billion euro, which begs the question as to what in the name of god is holding up the Irish government in needing proof that such projects are worthwhile.

McAlban

munchkin_utd wrote: »

The city then in literally less than a decade built their interconnector under the city centre for suburban trains between the 2 terminus stations(s-bahn), ordered a new fleet of trains, and started with the first few dozen km of U-Bahn which then provided mass transit through the city replacing the undercapacity trams.

There was the small matter of the 1972 Olympics and 1974 World Cup Finals in Munich that were a major factor in the development of the Inter-connector.

bk

munchkin_utd wrote: »

BTW. Munich has just started the building of its second interconnector for a cost of 3.2billion euro, which begs the question as to what in the name of god is holding up the Irish government in needing proof that such projects are worthwhile.

CIE and the unions.

Really, I think the government is well onboard for Metro North, being that it will be designed/owned and run by TII/NTA/Transdev.

I think the government has zero interest in pouring billions into DU which will be built and owned by CIE and operated by IR union drivers.

There is simply far too much bad blood between CIE and their unions and government. Irish Rail is on the brink of bankruptcy, has massive pension issues coming up and the DART drivers are still refusing to operate 10 minute DART schedule, etc.

I don't think Germany has the same issues between their state governments, transport companies and unions. This all need to be fixed before DU happens IMO.

BonnieSituation

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Theres no need to be too pessimistic.
Munich was suffering in the 1960s with chronic traffic congestion and a severe case of "An Lár- itis" with their tram system which hadnt the capacity then, same as Dublin trying to force 100s of busses through the city centre from every corner of suburbia.

The city then in literally less than a decade built their interconnector under the city centre for suburban trains between the 2 terminus stations(s-bahn), ordered a new fleet of trains, and started with the first few dozen km of U-Bahn which then provided mass transit through the city replacing the undercapacity trams.

Dublin can do something similar too in a relatively short timeframe, but the interconnector aka Dart underground is the key to the whole thing, even if it is a right few euros.

BTW. Munich has just started the building of its second interconnector for a cost of 3.2billion euro, which begs the question as to what in the name of god is holding up the Irish government in needing proof that such projects are worthwhile.

So you're saying heavy rail is the key?

Who knew!

AlmightyCushion

bk wrote: »

CIE and the unions.

Really, I think the government is well onboard for Metro North, being that it will be designed/owned and run by TII/NTA/Transdev.

I think the government has zero interest in pouring billions into DU which will be built and owned by CIE and operated by IR union drivers.

There is simply far too much bad blood between CIE and their unions and government. Irish Rail is on the brink of bankruptcy, has massive pension issues coming up and the DART drivers are still refusing to operate 10 minute DART schedule, etc.

I don't think Germany has the same issues between their state governments, transport companies and unions. This all need to be fixed before DU happens IMO.

What's to stop the government doing the same thing with DU what they would with MN and have with Luas? Is there any specific reason they can't just stick two fingers up at CIE and hand everything over to the NTA?

munchkin_utd

McAlban wrote: »

There was the small matter of the 1972 Olympics and 1974 World Cup Finals in Munich that were a major factor in the development of the Inter-connector.

well, yes and no

The final interconnector decision to build was made on the 16. September 1965 with the olympic bid being won on April 26, 1966 making it a far tighter schedule than maybe they had anticipated, but it was going ahead in the late 60s regardless of the olympics or not.

similar to the Sbahn, the ubahn was decided upon in 1964 with work starting on 1. February 1965 , so thats building starting even before the successful olympic bid, but the olympics did focus their minds somewhat !

McAlban

munchkin_utd wrote: »

well, yes and no

similar to the Sbahn, the ubahn was decided upon in 1964 with work starting on 1. February 1965 , so thats building starting even before the successful olympic bid, but the olympics did focus their minds somewhat !

Nothing Like a 6 Year deadline to focus the mind

LeinsterDub

McAlban wrote: »

Nothing Like a 6 Year deadline to focus the mind

If only we where bidding for some kind of global cup. A cup of the world if you will

CatInABox

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

What's to stop the government doing the same thing with DU what they would with MN and have with Luas? Is there any specific reason they can't just stick two fingers up at CIE and hand everything over to the NTA?

Presumably, the Irish Rail unions would go out on strike as it's taking away power from them, rather than just having a competing service set up.

ClovenHoof

This is a positive development as outsiders will soon see that Dublin needs the investment and not Ballyporeen and so on.

bk

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

What's to stop the government doing the same thing with DU what they would with MN and have with Luas? Is there any specific reason they can't just stick two fingers up at CIE and hand everything over to the NTA?

I've certainly heard the idea of moving the ownerships of DART over or DART + Commuter Rail.

But the issue is that it is all tangled up together. CIE own the tracks, stations, etc. Intercity trains use those same stations, etc. And of course most importantly the unions would lose their minds!

They got away with Luas and by extension Metro North, because it was a complete clean slate break from CIE. Light rail, used a different rail gauge, etc.

Even then the CIE unions have been trying to squirm their way into influencing the Luas drivers, as we saw with the recent Luas strikes.

It is all very unhealthy for the country IMO.

spacetweek

The sooner DART and Luas move over to driverless trains the better. That can't be too far off at this stage.

irishguy

bk wrote: »

CIE and the unions.

Really, I think the government is well onboard for Metro North, being that it will be designed/owned and run by TII/NTA/Transdev.

I think the government has zero interest in pouring billions into DU which will be built and owned by CIE and operated by IR union drivers.

There is simply far too much bad blood between CIE and their unions and government. Irish Rail is on the brink of bankruptcy, has massive pension issues coming up and the DART drivers are still refusing to operate 10 minute DART schedule, etc.

I don't think Germany has the same issues between their state governments, transport companies and unions. This all need to be fixed before DU happens IMO.

Id say a lot of the delay is the fiscal budget rules. We legally have to balance the books in the next year or two and cant over borrow. Thats whats holding up all this. Unless it can be done off balance sheet

MayoSalmon

spacetweek wrote:

The sooner DART and Luas move over to driverless trains the better. That can't be too far off at this stage.

Ha the unions have massive power in this country...unless the rest of Europe goes that way you wont see driverless before 2050. Like the taxi mafia don't even let Uber get a sniff in here.

BonnieSituation

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Ha the unions have massive power in this country...unless the rest of Europe goes that way you wont see driverless before 2050. Like the taxi mafia don't even let Uber get a sniff in here.

I'm not a major fan of unions. But jesus I'm even less of a fan of a race to the bottom that uber and its ilk bring. All you do is shift costs to other parts of society and inevitably the worst off lose out and the State usually picks up the tab. Look at airbnb for example and the distortion it causes in housing markets everywhere.

Grandeeod

bk wrote: »

CIE and the unions.

Really, I think the government is well onboard for Metro North, being that it will be designed/owned and run by TII/NTA/Transdev.

I think the government has zero interest in pouring billions into DU which will be built and owned by CIE and operated by IR union drivers.

There is simply far too much bad blood between CIE and their unions and government. Irish Rail is on the brink of bankruptcy, has massive pension issues coming up and the DART drivers are still refusing to operate 10 minute DART schedule, etc.

I don't think Germany has the same issues between their state governments, transport companies and unions. This all need to be fixed before DU happens IMO.

You may be right and I can't disagree about the entire morbid culture that has spread throughout the CIE group. But if it can't be fixed and results in DU not being built in the short term, then Dublin is fooked, because MN alone will not fix Dublin.

CIE could be fixed if the political will was there. Perhaps its suits the politicians to continue on side stepping it.

CatInABox

Grandeeod wrote: »

CIE could be fixed if the political will was there. Perhaps its suits the politicians to continue on side stepping it.

Any government that decides to take on the unions would need to be prepared for a year of strike action, so probably not going to happen. Best opportunity in the last 30 years was right after the financial crisis, but then there was little to no money to sort anything out.

MayoSalmon

BonnieSituation wrote:

I'm not a major fan of unions. But jesus I'm even less of a fan of a race to the bottom that uber and its ilk bring. All you do is shift costs to other parts of society and inevitably the worst off lose out Andre State usually picks up the tab. Look at airbnb for example and the distortion it causes in housing markets everywhere.

Airbnb is free market enterprise at its best...the housing market is crippled by cost namely from the government. This race to the bottom nonsense...capitalism and free trade isn't a zero sum game that should be fairly self evident by now.

bk

irishguy wrote: »

Id say a lot of the delay is the fiscal budget rules. We legally have to balance the books in the next year or two and cant over borrow. Thats whats holding up all this. Unless it can be done off balance sheet

Of course, that certainly in the main reason for the current delay to all building of public transport and other capital projects.

But given that things are starting to improve now and some money is available. It is clear that Metro North is getting green lit, while DU continues to be long fingered and hell not even mentioned by the Irish Rail CEO!

I'm trying to explain why this is, why the government is WAY more enthusiastic about MN.

I think realistically what we will see over the next 10 years is the government focused on building MN, while at the same time trying to fix the CIE issues, so that DU might be ready to start building once MN is finished.

Idbatterim

I think realistically what we will see over the next 10 years is the government focused on building MN, while at the same time trying to fix the CIE issues, so that DU might be ready to start building once MN is finished.

The IR situation is so outrageous, could we not just let it go bankrupt? the entire network carries about 35,000,000 a year I believe, the luas alone carried that figure last year, even with the strikes. How many of those 35,000,000 are people on free travel passes? how many trips will shortly be better suited to bus when the gort - tuam and m11 gorey to enniscorthy open up?

on a side note, metro north should be built as a driverless system in my opinion...

ClovenHoof

I am pretty much resigned to the fact that major capital investment into the CIE companies is now a thing of the past. They will only get monies to keep the current infrastructure running and this now explains that strange press release by the IE CEO recently about needing money for this and that.

I think, that behind the scenes, Irish Rail have been told 'no more and certainly no DART Underground' and this also explains why the government want the Maynooth line electrified. That's all they are getting. The BE Strike was the end for CIE as a whole.

With the IMF overseeing the situation now, the CIE Unions have turned their IE, BE and DB into their own suicide machines with the endless strikes, work to rule and inability to move with the times. It over. There are real alternatives to their once might monolith.

Metro North will get the financing, and I also think a non Heavy Rail alternative to the Dart Underground could become a possibility soon.

Listening to people here defending CIE union actions with tired old cliches such as 'race to the bottom lads!' have become their own self-fulfilling mantra. CIE Unions have raced to the bottom of the Capital Investment funding as a result of their Strike Frenzy psychosis.

It is just like the 1990s again, when LUAS was taken off CIE. That was a shot across the bow. This time it's the sinking of the ship.

bk

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Metro North will get the financing, and I also think a non Heavy Rail alternative to the Dart Underground could become a possibility soon.

Hmmm.. A Metro East - West, from Lucan into Hueston, Christchurch, College Green/O'Connell Bridge *, Connolly and upgrade of the rest of the Red Luas line from Connolly to Metro standard.

Spur to take in Blanchardstown

* Maybe under Rosie Hackett bridge, could have exits out to Tara St, O'Connell St and Westmoreland St/D'Oilier St.

Not a bad idea, can see some folks heads exploding now!

Maybe I should bookmark this for 20 years for now.

ClovenHoof

bk wrote: »

Hmmm.. A Metro East - West, from Lucan into Hueston, Christchurch, College Green/O'Connell Bridge *, Connolly and upgrade of the rest of the Red Luas line from Connolly to Metro standard.

Spur to take in Blanchardstown

* Maybe under Rosie Hackett bridge, could have exits out to Tara St, O'Connell St and Westmoreland St/D'Oilier St.

Not a bad idea, can see some folks heads exploding now!

Maybe I should bookmark this for 20 years for now.

It's totally doable and it this stage in the game a second east to west metro line instead of the DART Underground is far more of a certainty than CIE Unions getting this kind of money.

Irish Rail (just like BE and DB) shall meander on in their old ways until they become irrelevant. Metro and Light Rail will become the backbone of Dublin's public transport and the DART will become an addition to the system and no longer the core.

You reap what you sow eventually

Grandeeod

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I am pretty much resigned to the fact that major capital investment into the CIE companies is now a thing of the past. They will only get monies to keep the current infrastructure running and this now explains that strange press release by the IE CEO recently about needing money for this and that.

I think, that behind the scenes, Irish Rail have been told 'no more and certainly no DART Underground' and this also explains why the government want the Maynooth line electrified. That's all they are getting. The BE Strike was the end for CIE as a whole.

With the IMF overseeing the situation now, the CIE Unions have turned their IE, BE and DB into their own suicide machines with the endless strikes, work to rule and inability to move with the times. It over. There are real alternatives to their once might monolith.

Metro North will get the financing, and I also think a non Heavy Rail alternative to the Dart Underground could become a possibility soon.

Listening to people here defending CIE union actions with tired old cliches such as 'race to the bottom lads!' have become their own self-fulfilling mantra. CIE Unions have raced to the bottom of the Capital Investment funding as a result of their Strike Frenzy psychosis.

It is just like the 1990s again, when LUAS was taken off CIE. That was a shot across the bow. This time it's the sinking of the ship.

May well happen in the future. It won't be as seemless as DU, but with decent changes planned correctly, it will be a lot better that what we have now.

While we are on the subject of Transport unions, lets not forget that they are still there. The have already infiltrated Luas and I have no doubt they will be sniffing around any kind of metro built. The toxic CIE culture is one thing from management right down to a ticket checker. Its union representation is another matter. Public transport provided by the state will never prosper in any guise whatsoever until CIE is dealt with.

murphaph

Not going driverless with MN would be insanity.

roadmaster

This has probably already being discussed a million times on here with a logical reason for why this could not be done,but could we not just leave CIE company's out of the DU and instead go for broke with a massive PPP/Tii project where instead of just metro north do a underground combining both MN and DU as one project ?

cgcsb

If DARTu happens it'll be delivered by TII and then operated by CIE (or more likely the operation of both Dublin's DART lines will be tendered out at that point on a similar basis to luas)

bk

roadmaster wrote: »

This has probably already being discussed a million times on here with a logical reason for why this could not be done,but could we not just leave CIE company's out of the DU and instead go for broke with a massive PPP/Tii project where instead of just metro north do a underground combining both MN and DU as one project ?

Dart Underground would be built by TII, however the issue is that it would need to be operated by Irish Rail, as it would be operated by DARTs.

Even if you take DART off of Irish Rail (a possibility) you still have issues as the DART runs on shared Irish Rail tracks.

Plus one of the selling points of DU is that future electrification of the Cork to Belfast line, or various forms of hybrid commuter and intercity trains would allow them all to operate right into the same tunnel.

Worse of all, even if they they did separate out DART from Irish Rail, they would be still required to retain all the existing DART drivers and their union, so really it would solve nothing.

The government spent millions lengthening stations to take 8 carriage DARTs, only for drivers refused to operate them for "safety reasons" Of course those "safety reasons" went away when the drivers were offered 10k more!

The government has spent millions on the city center resignalling project to enable 10 minute DARTs, the drivers are currently refusing to operate the new schedule.

It is this sort of nonsense that will cause the government to continue to sideline DU IMO.

murphaph

One option would be to build DU, transfer all existing drivers to DART1 (Maynooth-Bray) and let a new company operate DART2 (Hazelhatch-Malahide). It's not ideal but it would further limit the damage an IE strike can do (take down just 1 line). Gradually we need to make IE extinct as an operator for sure.

Edit: DAA did something like this when T2 opened by the way, to reduce the stranglehold of the unions at the airport.