Season 7 Speculation thread - "Book readers"

Kunkka

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

Anyone want to speculate on major character deaths by the end of this season?

2 episodes in. We've lost 2 sand snakes.
The 3rd sand snake
Elleria
Yara, can't see any of those 3 surviving more than another couple of episodes.
Cersie should meet her demise by the end of the season finale I think.
Grey Worm (taking Casterly Rock)
Littlefinger's meddling should catch up pretty soon, though I wouldn't be too surprised if he makes it to season 8.
I don't think Euron will survive this season either. Possibly dragon BBQ

I agree with everyone on this list except Littlefinger. He will be there until the bitter end in my opinion. I reckon Sansa will come across another real romantic interest and like with Catelyn, Littlefinger will be dishonored by him, or killed near the end. I think given what drove Littlefinger's ambition in the books through his love for Cat, this would be a sweet end for the little ****. Any other simple death would not warrant his crimes.

I also think we are due another shock this season, a leading character that isn't someone we hate will be killed. I had thought if Ayra went to KL that she might be killed by the Mountain which would lead to the final stand off we've all hoped for with Sandor but not looking likely now. Hmm...

CMOTDibbler

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Probably been theorised a million times on the Internet, but if not, anybody think that Arya is going to be the valonqar? Cersei is the big dog on her list and she seems to have set her sights on her. She can obviously take on the appearance of anybody that is dead/she kills, so theoretically, she could pretend to be Jamie to get close and do what she needs to, all the while techinically fulfilling the prophecy. Obviously this requires Jamie to be killed off, but I am just thinking about reasons to include the whole faceless man training that she has received. It feels like a real Chekhov's Gun situation that we were reminded of in the first episode, but hasn't really reached its crescendo.

Probably won't happen, just something I thought of, which has probably been posted loads of times over the years.

I don't think prophecies 'do' tchnicalities. That sort of misdirection wouldn't even qualify as a technicality, becaise it would be someone disguiised as her brother or looking like her brother which wouldn't really come close.

Afaik, Valonqar meanse sibling rather than brother. There's also some doubt as to Tyrion's exact parentage, so that only leaves Jaime.

PhlegmyMoses

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't think prophecies 'do' tchnicalities. That sort of misdirection wouldn't even qualify as a technicality, becaise it would be someone disguiised as her brother or looking like her brother which wouldn't really come close.

Afaik, Valonqar meanse sibling rather than brother. There's also some doubt as to Tyrion's exact parentage, so that only leaves Jaime.

They've said in the books that prophecies are very vague pretty much throughout, no? Kind of like wishes from a genie kind of thing, they have pitfalls and can be interpreted many ways.

Anyway, probably won't happen, I am just trying to understand what the faceless man arc payoff will be. Will hardly be Walder Frey, surely?

Dyr

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't think prophecies 'do' tchnicalities. That sort of misdirection wouldn't even qualify as a technicality, becaise it would be someone disguiised as her brother or looking like her brother which wouldn't really come close.

Afaik, Valonqar meanse sibling rather than brother. There's also some doubt as to Tyrion's exact parentage, so that only leaves Jaime.

Is valonqar not also the nick name for a poison that strangles?

mewso

While I still enjoy the show I feel like it has becomes a total slave to fan service and the generation of memes and that is probably the best way to make predictions.

Arya - basically she will just keep killing in increasingly more disturbing ways that should give pause but will generate cheers in the twitterverse every time. I predict she will be missing for an episode or two while we are kept guessing as to where she will end up and suddenly appear at some point to do something 'cool' but very violent to someone we hate and the masses will gleefully ignore another very unsettling development for her as a character.

Cersei/Jaime - Some people are wondering when Jaime is going to turn on his sister but I think he will end up dying in an effort to save her with a reminder that his love for her is what trumps any kind of possible redemption.

Theon - poor old Theon is on the redemption yoyo train hopefully heading for the last stop. I think brave sacrifice was invented for him. How? I'm not sure but surely killing Euron-sey is the most likely.

Jon/Dany - I'm really not sure how this meeting will go. What can the writers do here. Will they fancy each other?

Tyrion - I'm kinda annoyed that they might knock him back again for his error in judgement when they discover the fleet is destroyed. The plan was as nonsensical as anything else this show has thrown at us but everyone in the room seemed to think it was genius at the time. Maybe Dany will turn on him at the end of this season only for him to win her back midway through the final season as he returns running in slow motion hand in hand with Jorah to save the day.

My final prediction completely out of thin air and based on the desperate need for wow moments is that Lady Stoneheart will make an appearance at some point soon.

leggo

mewso wrote: »

My final prediction completely out of thin air and based on the desperate need for wow moments is that Lady Stoneheart will make an appearance at some point soon.

I'd love it but I think that dream went up in smoke when The Hound met up with the Brotherhood Without Banners last year. That felt like their last chance to introduce her and they passed.

Savage Tyrant

leggo wrote: »

I'd love it but I think that dream went up in smoke when The Hound met up with the Brotherhood Without Banners last year. That felt like their last chance to introduce her and they passed.

I agree. She's not with the brotherhood , and it's far too late to resurrect her now. It just wouldn't make any sense.

mewso

leggo wrote: »

I'd love it but I think that dream went up in smoke when The Hound met up with the Brotherhood Without Banners last year. That felt like their last chance to introduce her and they passed.

That was always my feeling but never underestimate these writers. "Clegane you've earned the right to know one of our most closely guarded secrets..."

mewso

Savage Tyrant wrote: »

It just wouldn't make any sense.

Perfectly in keeping with many of the recent story lines.

J. Marston

My guess on Ellaria and Tyene's fate. Cersei will sentence both to death, Jaime won't have a problem with this but Bronn might due to his affection/lust for Bad Poosy but mainly for his desire to move up in the world.

During season 5 when Jaime visited Bronn to recruit him for the trip to Dorne, he promised him a "Much better girl and a much better castle" in return for joining him. I think Bronn calls in that favour for an arranged marriage to Tyene.

Ellaria will still be executed (She deserves it) leaving Tyene as heir to Sunspear and Jaime then convinces Cersei to send her back to Sunspear under the condition that she withdraws all support for Dany. Tyene has lost her Mother, Father and Sisters so has been bowed, bent and broken. She accepts.

Or scenario B. Cersei says "Ser Gregor, smashy smashy."

leggo

As cool as it'd be to see Bronn rise that high, he wouldn't have that sway. Hell I doubt much Jaime could say these days could sway Cersei when she's in 'destroy your enemies' mode, much less a random knight. I think it's going to be more an eye for an eye: it's no coincidence that Euron took Ellaria and her daughter after Ellaria killer Cersei's daughter. Also Cersei isn't going to let any of the Sand Snakes live, much less hold a position of power again. Sending Tyene home to rule Dorne would be just giving her and the Dornish army back to Dany, leaving her doubly pissed now both of her parents would've died at the hands of Lannisters.

Plus, as I learned here last week, Cersei and Bronn are to be kept away from each other under all circumstances. So I doubt he'll be involved in this storyline in any way.

CMOTDibbler

leggo wrote: »

As cool as it'd be to see Bronn rise that high, he wouldn't have that sway. Hell I doubt much Jaime could say these days could sway Cersei when she's in 'destroy your enemies' mode, much less a random knight. I think it's going to be more an eye for an eye: it's no coincidence that Euron took Ellaria and her daughter after Ellaria killer Cersei's daughter. Also Cersei isn't going to let any of the Sand Snakes live, much less hold a position of power again. Sending Tyene home to rule Dorne would be just giving her and the Dornish army back to Dany, leaving her doubly pissed now both of her parents would've died at the hands of Lannisters.

Plus, as I learned here last week, Cersei and Bronn are to be kept away from each other under all circumstances. So I doubt he'll be involved in this storyline in any way.

Yeah. I think Ellaria will be left alive though, to keep Dorne in line. As long as she's alive, there's unlikely to be someone else to take over and renew hostilities with Kings Landing. And Cersei can't afford to have a presence in Dorne to keep them in line. So Ellaria is a hostage to keep the Dornish army out of the picture.

Tyene, not so much.

leggo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yeah. I think Ellaria will be left alive though, to keep Dorne in line. As long as she's alive, there's unlikely to be someone else to take over and renew hostilities with Kings Landing. And Cersei can't afford to have a presence in Dorne to keep them in line. So Ellaria is a hostage to keep the Dornish army out of the picture.

Tyene, not so much.

The interesting thing is that that's the smart way to play it. But is Cersei smart anymore? Is this the shrewd daughter of Tywin Lannister or is this a vengeful mother out for blood now her children are dead? All evidence suggests that she thinks she's shrewd, but Cersei's actions are typically emotional and speed up the demise of her and those around her, rather than slow it down. Tyrion is the child who inherited Tywin's savvy, as much as the pair of them may hate that.

So, whatever Cersei does with Ellaria and Tyene, I fully expect it to be based on emotion and ultimately be an act of self-harm, even if it feels good in the moment. That's who Cersei is, she can't help herself.

CMOTDibbler

leggo wrote: »

The interesting thing is that that's the smart way to play it. But is Cersei smart anymore? Is this the shrewd daughter of Tywin Lannister or is this a vengeful mother out for blood now her children are dead? All evidence suggests that she thinks she's shrewd, but Cersei's actions are typically emotional and speed up the demise of her and those around her, rather than slow it down. Tyrion is the child who inherited Tywin's savvy, as much as the pair of them may hate that.

So, whatever Cersei does with Ellaria and Tyene, I fully expect it to be based on emotion and ultimately be an act of self-harm, even if it feels good in the moment. That's who Cersei is, she can't help herself.

Well she said to Jaime that she hadn't listened to Tywin for forty years without learning something. So I suspect that she's shrewd enough alright.

If you think about what she's done so far, I'd say she's been shrewd. In one fell swoop, she eliminated all her enemies in Kings Landing. It was ruthless and decisive and left her completely in control, from a position where she was in great danger.

Then she found an ally when it seemed everyone was against her. And that ally has removed two of her enemies. And she didn't jump at Euron's offer either. She forced him to prove himself.

And it's cost her nothing so far. Certainly not in terms of fighting men or territory. I don't think she's being emotional at all. Absolutely cold and calculating.

leggo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Well she said to Jaime that she hadn't listened to Tywin for forty years without learning something. So I suspect that she's shrewd enough alright.

If you think about what she's done so far, I'd say she's been shrewd. In one fell swoop, she eliminated all her enemies in Kings Landing. It was ruthless and decisive and left her completely in control, from a position where she was in great danger.

Then she found an ally when it seemed everyone was against her. And that ally has removed two of her enemies. And she didn't jump at Euron's offer either. She forced him to prove himself.

And it's cost her nothing so far. Certainly not in terms of fighting men or territory. I don't think she's being emotional at all. Absolutely cold and calculating.

You're at the crux of what makes Cersei a great character. All of her moves, at the time, seem like they're the right play. But take a step back and look at her primary driving forces. What do we know Cersei has wanted all of her life? To be the queen, to be a good mother and to avoid the prophecy. And yet all of her actions, while seeming the right move at the time, have actually helped be the downfall of her dreams.

• She thought that Margaery was the younger, more beautiful queen who would take her crown. Her resistance to this ultimately cost her a valuable ally and made her a powerful enemy in Highgarden. Remember that it was her who empowered the High Sparrow as a means of taking Margaery off the board. She didn't need to do any of that, it was a totally rash move to avoid the prophecy (keep in mind that the season that ended in her walk of atonement began with us learning about said prophecy). And it ultimately handed Dany a powerful ally who, as established in the last episode, isn't even supporting Dany out of love but purely to get back at Cersei! Her actions strengthened the prophecy!
  
• Joffrey was murdered because of his madness, which the books at several stages allude to being the result of being inbred.
  
• The Mountain killed Oberyn at her behest, which directly led to Myrcella's murder. That's a perfect example of a move that seems smart at the time but totally backfires! Again, totally unnecessary and emotionally-driven. She had no evidence it was Tyrion (sure it wasn't) but wanted vengeance as well as now having an excuse to get Tyrion.
  
• Again, the destruction of her enemies at the sept seemed like the right move, and it did have material gain. But it directly led to the suicide of her son and cost her the one thing that actually mattered to her in life. She was no longer a mother as a result. She may have even saved Tommen's life by keeping him under watch from The Mountain, but she pulled him away to seek emotionally-driven revenge on the septa.
  
• Now let's look at volanqar, the last piece of the prophecy: sure, enlisting the help of Euron now might seem like the right move. But it comes at a price. He's clearly stated that he wants to marry her in exchange for his services, he's not doing this for free! Are her actions now directly going to lead to Jaime turning on her and fulfilling the prophecy in its entirety? It seems shrewd, but this is the emotional move: she's acting out of desperation because she wants the crown and it'll likely cost her her life. If she was being smart and rational, she could realise it's a lost cause, seek terms of surrender and hand the crown over to Dany while bending the knee, but likely keep her life in the process and live out her days with Jaime in Casterly Rock in exchange. That's not Cersei though, she's driven by greed and ego now, so she'll follow this path until it ultimately costs her everything.

CMOTDibbler

leggo wrote: »

You're at the crux of what makes Cersei a great character. All of her moves, at the time, seem like they're the right play. But take a step back and look at her primary driving forces. What do we know Cersei has wanted all of her life? To be the queen, to be a good mother and to avoid the prophecy. And yet all of her actions, while seeming the right move at the time, have actually helped be the downfall of her dreams.

Fair play for the extensive reply. Really good post. I'll reply in the guise of devil's advocate because I would largely agree with you.

leggo wrote: »

She thought that Margaery was the younger, more beautiful queen who would take her crown. Her resistance to this ultimately cost her a valuable ally and made her a powerful enemy in Highgarden. Remember that it was her who empowered the High Sparrow as a means of taking Margaery off the board. She didn't need to do any of that, it was a totally rash move to avoid the prophecy (keep in mind that the season that ended in her walk of atonement began with us learning about said prophecy). And it ultimately handed Dany a powerful ally who, as established in the last episode, isn't even supporting Dany out of love but purely to get back at Cersei! Her actions strengthened the prophecy!

It was the obvious conclusion though. At that stage, Dany was a nobody in exile and Margaery was winning hearts and minds everywhere. And Margaery was playing the game as well and quite openly. So she was a definite threat with beauty, power and influence and the desire to use them to gain advantage over Cersei.

leggo wrote: »

Joffrey was murdered because of his madness, which the books at several stages allude to being the result of being inbred.

Myrcella and Tommen were fine though. Two out of three ain't bad.

leggo wrote: »

The Mountain killed Oberyn at her behest, which directly led to Myrcella's murder. That's a perfect example of a move that seems smart at the time but totally backfires! Again, totally unnecessary and emotionally-driven. She had no evidence it was Tyrion (sure it wasn't) but wanted vengeance as well as now having an excuse to get Tyrion.

Tyrion was her enemy though. He worked against her and Joffrey and thwarted her a nummber of times as hand of the king. There are unintended consequences to everything. Such as Jon being stabbed to death for bringing the wildlings south of the wall.

leggo wrote: »

Again, the destruction of her enemies at the sept seemed like the right move, and it did have material gain. But it directly led to the suicide of her son and cost her the one thing that actually mattered to her in life. She was no longer a mother as a result. She may have even saved Tommen's life by keeping him under watch from The Mountain, but she pulled him away to seek emotionally-driven revenge on the septa.

You won't stop a suicide who's determined. She had no inkling that he was so dependant on Margaery and the High Sparrow. Again, not something that could have been easily predicted and another unintended consequence.

leggo wrote: »

Now let's look at volanqar, the last piece of the prophecy: sure, enlisting the help of Euron now might seem like the right move. But it comes at a price. He's clearly stated that he wants to marry her in exchange for his services, he's not doing this for free! Are her actions now directly going to lead to Jaime turning on her and fulfilling the prophecy in its entirety? It seems shrewd, but this is the emotional move: she's acting out of desperation because she wants the crown and it'll likely cost her her life. If she was being smart and rational, she could realise it's a lost cause, seek terms of surrender and hand the crown over to Dany while bending the knee, but likely keep her life in the process and live out her days with Jaime in Casterly Rock in exchange. That's not Cersei though, she's driven by greed and ego now, so she'll follow this path until it ultimately costs her everything.

Or she could just string Euron along until she gets what she wants. There are many different outcomes to that decision and she has the control right now. She has Euron on a string and can keep him there as long as she wants. At this stage, he's only provided evidence of his sincerity. He has yet to be even accepted as an ally never mind a consort. And Jaime has stood by while she had other consorts and lovers.

leggo

And, likewise, I don't disagree with what you're saying. I just think that, when one of those unforeseen circumstances happen, it's a tragedy. When they all happen, it's a pattern. Her decisions, in the moment, seem like the only decisions to make. But then you step back and realise what's driving them: emotion, hate, greed, ego, vengeance.

For example: she didn't need to be adversarial with Margaery. If she'd have accepted the situation as it was and consolidated power (in doing so giving some up to Highgarden - which Tywin himself saw and accepted as a natural consequence), she'd have likely prospered. This is particular clear in the books when you get inside her brain and see how much of a threat Cersei sees from Highgarden, it's totally unnecessary! Why make an enemy and conspire against Margaery? Why try send Loras to his demise when you can keep Tommen happy as his squire? She's trying to avoid the prophecy, but if she'd have just calmed the jets, a settled kingdom ruled by the collective might of the Lannisters and Highgarden, with even the common people likely behind them out of love for Margaery and Tommen, would've been way too much for Dany to overcome. The common folk fear Targaeryan's after the Mad King. Dany's quest seems easy on the show, but what she's trying to achieve is actually next to impossible, and Cersei has made it relatively easy for her with her blunders.

Instead, she does conspire against Highgarden, she seeks the help of the Faith, she tries to have Tyrion killed rashly and, in doing so, she essentially writes her own headstone. None of it had to be this way. You look at seasoned players like Tywin, Tyrion, Littlefinger and Varys, and they're all playing on a different level to Cersei despite their circumstances because they're letting logic, not emotion, rule their decision-making. Her decisions make sense at the time but not in hindsight. Their decisions (like Littlefinger having Joffrey killed) seem to make little sense at the time, but then you see how they blossom and make perfect sense in hindsight. That's how you plot and scheme, one step ahead of the game. Cersei is a step behind and always realises it when it's too late, yet she can't stop being herself and persists.

And I have zero doubt that this latest ploy will backfire in exactly the way she's looking to avoid because that's what happens to Cersei. It's all there in front of us, in front of her too, and all we can do is stand in horror and watch.

podgemonster

mewso wrote: »

Perfectly in keeping with many of the recent story lines.

Expand, what storylines didn't make sense to you.

CMOTDibbler

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Yeah. I think Ellaria will be left alive though, to keep Dorne in line. As long as she's alive, there's unlikely to be someone else to take over and renew hostilities with Kings Landing. And Cersei can't afford to have a presence in Dorne to keep them in line. So Ellaria is a hostage to keep the Dornish army out of the picture.

Tyene, not so much.

Well that was spot on anyway. :cool:

leggo

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Well that was spot on anyway. :cool:

That's not why Cersei kept her alive, she was clear she wanted her to watch Tyene die. We'll likely never see or hear from her again. And what Cersei would do, if she wins, is give Dorne to one of her allies.

CMOTDibbler

leggo wrote: »

That's not why Cersei kept her alive, she was clear she wanted her to watch Tyene die. We'll likely never see or hear from her again. And what Cersei would do, if she wins, is give Dorne to one of her allies.

Don't be a spoilsport.

She's going to be kept alive isn't she?

Sleepy

I can't recall which but Tywin or Tyrion actually comment on Cersei's actions in the book: they ascribe a "certain low cunning" to her while basically saying she's too stupid to see the big picture.

CMOTDibbler

Sleepy wrote: »

I can't recall which but Tywin or Tyrion actually comment on Cersei's actions in the book: they ascribe a "certain low cunning" to her while basically saying she's too stupid to see the big picture.

Yeah, it was Tyrion. In his thoughts.

His sister was not without a certain low cunning, but her pride blinded her.

leggo

One thing I wanna give them credit for is misdirecting us with the trailer and what we expected. If you combine where we were at the end of the last season with what we saw, we'd (or at least I would) have thought Yara and Theon were attacking Euron and that the battle of Casterly Rock was the giant siege Dany and Tyrion thought it'd be. I was so sure on what I thought was going to happen but now I can't be anymore. Now Cersei looks on the ascendency and Dany looks extremely vulnerable. That didn't seem possible a few weeks ago.

It makes me question what else I think I know: like the clips of Jon fighting the Army of the Dead with The Hound etc. How the hell can they twist and subvert that? And so on...

Riddle101

Is is possible that there is a spy within Deanery's inner circle? I mean Cersei and Jaime have been able to get the better of Deanerys at every turn. How do they know where to attack? Or what Deanerys plans are? Usually that type of masterful planning occurs when there is an informant giving information to the enemy.

CMOTDibbler

Riddle101 wrote: »

Is is possible that there is a spy within Deanery's inner circle? I mean Cersei and Jaime have been able to get the better of Deanerys at every turn. How do they know where to attack? Or what Deanerys plans are? Usually that type of masterful planning occurs when there is an informant giving information to the enemy.

In some ways, it probably demonstrates the difference between a 'foreign invader' and an indigenous ruler. The invader has no reliable sources of information and lines of communication that the indigenous rulers do. The system of raven communication depends on an interchange of ravens from different locations, so a Maester would be able to send messages anywhere he has ravens homed to.

Dany has none of that. Her best method of gaining intelligence would be through using her dragons, but that requires her to be absent and in danger unless she flies high enough. Perhaps that will be her next move.

leggo

I'm wary of Varys and the discussion Dany had with him at the start of the season may become more relevant, but I don't see him just being a spy for Cersei either. That'd mean she signed off on him saving Tyrion and so on. It'd only make sense if they were going with a retcon version of the Aegon story, but I think that ship has sailed, so I don't know. I definitely see another betrayal in the works though, Cersei seems one step ahead constantly...

Kunkka

The only person with scope to betray Dany is Varys though I reckon? Everyone else worships the ground she walks on. Tyrion seems to be siding with Jon a lot but Jon and Dany obviously end up on the same side so that isn't a possibility. I do agree in principle that we're due a few shocks yet but from where?

podgemonster

The entrance of the Iron Bank adds another element to proceedings. All the momentum has been with Cersei so far but all the attacks have been executed by her two capable generals (Jaime & Euron). Cersei thinks she's smarter than she is and I am certain it will be her error that will turn the tables, not Dany.


Jaime now has to get the Tyrell gold from The Reach to KL. The movement will be slow. They could also use Euron to ship it. All convoys land or sea are open to a Dragon attack and Euron could defect to Dany now that she needs a new ally and he will have more leverage.


I predict the gold to be lost or stolen and Cersei's fatal mistake will be having the Mountain off Tyco thus setting in place a motion where a faceless man will come for Cersei, wearing a familiar face.

wp_rathead

Lads, we're effectively in the last season as only 10 episodes of Game of Thrones left (4+6)